What does your character notice - When they're not paying attention?

[Narf the Mouse]

Credit: I found this idea on a blog, and adapted it to HERO. All mistakes and errors in this post are, of course, mine. Hopefully my write-up is comprehensible, and of, course, if you don't like the specifics, feel free to change them. If you've had an idea like this before, feel free to elaborate. And, if you like (or dislike) the idea, please comment and explain.

 

How to resolve a PER roll if a character (PC or NPC) is explicitly paying attention is well-defined: Roll, or assume a roll of 10 or 11. But what does the character notice casually, when they're not paying particular attention to the situation? This, so far as I know, is left up to the GM. However, using this idea, the GM can simplify decisions, and make it predictable. For this, we'll be using "Knockout" Joe Brik with a PER of 13-, and The Bat Ninja with a PER roll of 26-.

 

The scenario: Your character walks into a bank. There's the usual crowd of ordinary people, and five bank robbers in disguise, with concealed weapons. Let's say they made their disguise and concealment rolls by a margin of success of 3, to keep thing simple. First, we'll establish a baseline.

 

Example 1: The character has received a tip that trouble is going down at the bank.

If "Knockout" Joe rolls a 10 or less, he notices the concealed weapons and/or disguises. Fairly simple.

If The Bat Ninja rolls anything other than an 18, he automatically notices the concealed weapons and disguises (and, probably, quite a bit more). Also fairly simple.

 

However, what if "Knockout" Joe rolls an 11 or higher? Our baseline here is then simply the time chart. If he rolls an 11, after one Phase, he's got enough bonus to notice the problem. A 12, it'll take him a turn. And so on. This is probably a fairly common solution. In addition, since rolling over your PER just means more time to notice things, it would generally act to prevent characters from not noticing anything.

 

Example 2: Now, for when the character is not expecting trouble, and has no reason to consider the situation dangerous or important. The simple answer here is to roll PER. While that might be appropriate for some characters and genres, having characters always be on high alert can be a bit silly, genre-breaking, break common sense, or indicate that the character should have "Psychological Complication (Paranoia)". We could apply a penalty, but that can give random and arbitrary results. What if we assume the character rolls a 14, and go from there? This covers 90% of the cases, which seems a good approximation. However, if the character's PER target is less than 14, we don't assume failure; that simply determines how long before the character notices something.

 

For example, under this rule, if "Knockout" Joe walks into the bank to do some weekly banking, not expecting trouble, with an automatic 14, he'll notice something is wrong after about 5 minutes. The individuals are acting a bit suspiciously; their clothes are a bit too new and seem tailored to conceal; whatever details the GM considers appropriate for making it by 0. After 20 minutes, he'll have a better idea (possibly because the bank robbers pulled weapons and preempted him).

On the other hand, if The Bat Ninja walks into the bank in his Bryce Dane public ID, with no previous indication of trouble, with an automatic roll of 14 and a PER of 26-, he notices that there's five bank robbers concealed as two accountants, a lawyer, and two construction workers. Each bank robber is ex-special forces (specified) of different nations (specified) and ethnicities (probably not racially- or nationally-motivated), carrying (weapons), trained in (hand-to-hand styles). Given that they are keeping a discreet eye on each other as well as the bank, they probably haven't worked together before, or not very often. They aren't immediately recognizable, so they don't generally work in North America. Probably a scratch crew, pulled together by someone else, possibly as a distraction. If he waits a phase, or a turn, he gets even more information. Bryce Dane then pulls one of his five hundred "exit plans", while mentally going over which of his villains are currently (or probably) out and active; minutes later, just as the bank robbers begin to draw their weapons, all the lights in the bank lobby go out simultaneously with a smoke bomb exploding in the middle of the would-be robbers...

 

OTOH, if your characters are the bank robbers, you can now have a fairly good estimate of when the security guards will probably notice something's wrong, just by looking at the time chart...

 

Original link: Link

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

I personally get the idea, but I dislike it. I personally find that it would be much simpler, for me, to half my party's PER roll. Thus, it makes it much harder for The Bat Ninja to notice something and not just notice it automatically. The incredibility of his PER roll counts against penalties, not casual observation. I don't believe that just because you have a high PER means that you notice EVERYTHING, but it does mean you notice a lot. It's like the old phrase "Even the greatest can't do some things". I cannot force myself to give a player everything I am planning for them just because they have a high PER modifier, a high INT modifier, a high Tactics modifier, or even a high Analyze modifier. One more thing. I'm not saying that this idea is bad, per se. I'm just saying I dislike it.

[Narf the Mouse]

I personally get the idea, but I dislike it. I personally find that it would be much simpler, for me, to half my party's PER roll. Thus, it makes it much harder for The Bat Ninja to notice something and not just notice it automatically. The incredibility of his PER roll counts against penalties, not casual observation. I don't believe that just because you have a high PER means that you notice EVERYTHING, but it does mean you notice a lot. It's like the old phrase "Even the greatest can't do some things". I cannot force myself to give a player everything I am planning for them just because they have a high PER modifier, a high INT modifier, a high Tactics modifier, or even a high Analyze modifier. One more thing. I'm not saying that this idea is bad, per se. I'm just saying I dislike it.

Halving the PER target sounds like a variant, to me, so it seems like what you don't like is the automatic success for high rolls?

 

Edit: Also, this only covers PER, not INT, Tactics, or whatever.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

Halving the PER target sounds like a variant, to me, so it seems like what you don't like is the automatic success for high rolls?

 

Edit: Also, this only covers PER, not INT, Tactics, or whatever.

I do hate the automatic success thing.

 

Also, I wasn't trying to force the other rolls, I was just using them as examples of other rolls that people put EXTREMELY HIGH modifiers on.

[Narf the Mouse]

I do hate the automatic success thing.

 

Also, I wasn't trying to force the other rolls, I was just using them as examples of other rolls that people put EXTREMELY HIGH modifiers on.

Ah. Well, since the character would only fail on an 18 anyway, you could just discretely roll and check for an automatic failure yourself, before telling them anything. In addition, a "roll" of 14 is worse than the average, and worse than what they probably would get if they did roll. Those two, together, seem sufficient for me for some cases; OTOH, halving them also works, and I have no objection to your solution. It would probably also work better for "realistic" supers, or "realistic" campaigns in general.

 

Ah; I misunderstood your point there, sorry. I thought you were thinking I meant for other rolls as well. Anyway. Yeah, 26- is a really high PER roll; I was mostly using it as an example of a character able to quickly and accurately evaluate a situation even with penalties. "quickly" and "accurately", of course, go down depending on the type and size of penalties. And, I don't believe in handing out solutions to players (in general); I did exaggerate some to (attempted) comedic effect in The Bat Ninja's description of the bank robbers.

 

One other possible thought is that, since a PER roll of 20- or higher allows a "superpower" level of roll, simply give the character what they'd get with a Danger Sense or other Enhanced Sense roll using, say, half the MoS.

[Narf the Mouse]

Sorry, I've had several weeks of insomnia and I'm still recovering. Didn't quite get that you also meant the time chart allowing automatic success.

 

My intent with that is that it would help prevent characters (and players) from completely missing the plot. Granted, that might be play-style appropriate, and I can see cases where I wouldn't use it. OTOH, sometimes characters taking a few minutes to notice is genre-appropriate, while not noticing at all, isn't. So, yeah.

[DasBroot]

Exaggerated or not the Bat Ninja paid points for that second description.  It's a superhuman result for a superhuman perception - not really indicative of being on high alert or paranoid just indicative of being the most perceptive being that has ever walked the earth.

 

 

I personally get the idea, but I dislike it. I personally find that it would be much simpler, for me, to half my party's PER roll. Thus, it makes it much harder for The Bat Ninja to notice something and not just notice it automatically. The incredibility of his PER roll counts against penalties, not casual observation. I don't believe that just because you have a high PER means that you notice EVERYTHING, but it does mean you notice a lot. It's like the old phrase "Even the greatest can't do some things". I cannot force myself to give a player everything I am planning for them just because they have a high PER modifier, a high INT modifier, a high Tactics modifier, or even a high Analyze modifier. One more thing. I'm not saying that this idea is bad, per se. I'm just saying I dislike it.

 

I understand this feeling (and I've felt it before) but since I didn't actively cap perception I went along with it.  Know what happened when they instantly solved all plots the moment they ran across them a few times? They realized they had nobody to blame but themselves for any lack of mystery in the game and lowered their perception.

 

I like this idea for the low perception people, though - the thought of Joe slowly realizing 'Huh.  Oh.' as the bank clerk keeps gesturing with less and less subtlety is fun.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

My intent with that is that it would help prevent characters (and players) from completely missing the plot. Granted, that might be play-style appropriate, and I can see cases where I wouldn't use it. OTOH, sometimes characters taking a few minutes to notice is genre-appropriate, while not noticing at all, isn't. So, yeah.

Now, this is something that makes A LOT of sense. This is the part that makes sense for a game. Like the example you used, a person that is much more aware (Our Bat) would have a much better chance of spotting things that are wrong. i may use that, but I will stick to my guns on automatic success immediately being something that shouldn't be, well automatic! 

[Narf the Mouse]

Now, this is something that makes A LOT of sense. This is the part that makes sense for a game. Like the example you used, a person that is much more aware (Our Bat) would have a much better chance of spotting things that are wrong. i may use that, but I will stick to my guns on automatic success immediately being something that shouldn't be, well automatic! 

True, and the minimum time to notice could certainly be raised up the time chart. I was using "one segment", but one phase, one turn, or one minute might be more realistic.

[Narf the Mouse]

Exaggerated or not the Bat Ninja paid points for that second description.  It's a superhuman result for a superhuman perception - not really indicative of being on high alert or paranoid just indicative of being the most perceptive being that has ever walked the earth.

 

 

 

I understand this feeling (and I've felt it before) but since I didn't actively cap perception I went along with it.  Know what happened when they instantly solved all plots the moment they ran across them a few times? They realized they had nobody to blame but themselves for any lack of mystery in the game and lowered their perception.

 

I like this idea for the low perception people, though - the thought of Joe slowly realizing 'Huh.  Oh.' as the bank clerk keeps gesturing with less and less subtlety is fun.

Some campaigns/settings, the characters are "Just That Good". OTOH, Penalty Levels with PER, Only To Counter Distraction?

 

 

Heh. You've got good players, then, I think.

 

Yeah, dawning realizations can be fun. As can scrambling to survive/keep up with a situation.

[Lucius]

 

It took me five minutes to notice what a great thread this is.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

But I had a penalty for having a palindromedary standing in the way

[massey]

Seems too complex for me, and leaves out important info.

 

Servo, the Human Robot, has a 20- Perception roll due to his computer eyes and robot hearing.  However, he has no social interaction skills because of his difficulty fitting in with society.  He can easily see bulges under the jackets of men in disguise.  He can see the cashiers and bank employees looking at each other warily, trickles of sweat running down their faces.  But he doesn't know how to interpret that data.  He doesn't necessarily connect the dots.  The Amazing Spider-Bat, however, with his mere human 15- Per roll, and his skills in Interrogation, Deduction, KS: Martial Arts and KS: Psychology, immediately knows what is going on.  He sees the robbers are moving with the skill of trained combatants.  He sees the signs of a hostage situation in progress.  He notices things that Servo the Human Robot would not find important.

 

My grandpa, who was half deaf and had bad eyesight, could pop open the hood of a car and tell you within 10 seconds what was wrong with it.  My eyes and hearing are fine.  I could stare at it for an hour and not have the first clue what was wrong.  Perception isn't everything.

 

I a situation like the one described, it's up to the GM to determine when each character gets to make a Per roll, based upon their individual circumstances.  I don't think a universal rule with the time chart would always be appropriate.

[Narf the Mouse]

Seems too complex for me, and leaves out important info.

 

Servo, the Human Robot, has a 20- Perception roll due to his computer eyes and robot hearing.  However, he has no social interaction skills because of his difficulty fitting in with society.  He can easily see bulges under the jackets of men in disguise.  He can see the cashiers and bank employees looking at each other warily, trickles of sweat running down their faces.  But he doesn't know how to interpret that data.  He doesn't necessarily connect the dots.  The Amazing Spider-Bat, however, with his mere human 15- Per roll, and his skills in Interrogation, Deduction, KS: Martial Arts and KS: Psychology, immediately knows what is going on.  He sees the robbers are moving with the skill of trained combatants.  He sees the signs of a hostage situation in progress.  He notices things that Servo the Human Robot would not find important.

 

My grandpa, who was half deaf and had bad eyesight, could pop open the hood of a car and tell you within 10 seconds what was wrong with it.  My eyes and hearing are fine.  I could stare at it for an hour and not have the first clue what was wrong.  Perception isn't everything.

 

I a situation like the one described, it's up to the GM to determine when each character gets to make a Per roll, based upon their individual circumstances.  I don't think a universal rule with the time chart would always be appropriate.

...I am unsure which part of my post made you think I meant a character's background doesn't come in to play. True, the information given was combat information, but the situation was an imminent physical threat, and the characters were combat superheroes.

 

Dianna Three, half-human empath, would get different information. That seemed evident to me.

 

If you meant something else, I apologize.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I actually build this into fantasy modules I write: that trap is -1 sight perception to spot if you're looking but -4 if not, that kind of thing.  But you could just use casual PER rolls; if you make it by half, you see stuff that you aren't looking for.

[Narf the Mouse]

I actually build this into fantasy modules I write: that trap is -1 sight perception to spot if you're looking but -4 if not, that kind of thing.  But you could just use casual PER rolls; if you make it by half, you see stuff that you aren't looking for.

And the benefit of using an existing mechanic.

[Old Man]

It took me five minutes to notice what a great thread this is.

 

There's a thread?

[Vondy]

Consider this,

 

A character with INT 20 has a Perception Roll of 13-, which means an unopposed roll with no negative modifiers has an 83.79% chance of succeeding.

 

However, in our example the bank robbers made their roll by three, which means our hero needs to roll 10-.

 

A 10- roll on 3d6 is a 50% chance of success, which I would argue is far from automatic. In fact, its fifty-fifty.

 

Now, yes, using the time chart resets their odds of success to 13- in about one minute.

 

But...

 

You could impose a -1 penalty to the roll for each bank robber (dramatically increasing the extra time increment).

 

Or, 

 

Roll separately to detect each bank robber (increasing the odds of missing one).

 

And,

 

Apply negative modifiers based on the vantage point and any concealment the bank robbers have.

 

The robbers-in-tellers-clothing should have counters obscuring their weapons.

 

And,

 

Once, Bat-Hero is in the room he's not going to have a minute or more to offset those penalties because all hell will break loose.

 

So,

 

Where is he observing from? A skylight? Can he even see the whole room? I presume the robbers drew the shades.

 

And, will the hero necessarily have that much time? 

 

Sure, I can cherry pick circumstances that suggest this is a problem, but I can just as easily create scenarios in which it isn't. 

[Narf the Mouse]

Yep, you can apply modifiers.

 

...What does The Bat Ninja have to do with Bryce Dane? You don't honestly believe that a drunken playboy billionaire is actually The Bat Ninja, one of the world's premier superheroes, do you?

 

[Narf the Mouse]

Yep, you can apply modifiers.

...Was trying to hint that I didn't understand the why of your post. Realized it might have come out wrong. If so, sorry.

[Nolgroth]

I see a couple of GM background rolls going on. First, there is the PER roll to figure out that something is out of place. It may not even be a conscious realization yet. Then there would be some sort of....Tactics, Criminology, Deduction... (?) roll to assess the threat and come up with the weird tailoring or strange behavior. Somewhere in that mess, the character becomes aware that they are observing something strange and it switches to a more active observation where they start counting the people and maybe assessing what they are going to do.

 

I do like the incremental time increase to allow for a better chance of success. It makes sense.

 

I don't have a problem with automatic success or automatic failure. In the Ninja Bat example, even some sort of penalty should not render him blind and dumb. It is a part of cinematic reality (or whatever Steve Long's catchphrase is) for a trained person to glance in their rear-view mirror and instantly recognize a tailing car. I see this as much of the same. On the other hand, if Knockout Joe is just not very perceptive, I can see him whiling away with dreams of making that Big Date Withdrawal until the moment the guns come out and the robbers announce their intentions. I think most people will fall somewhere in the middle ('Dear, does that man seem to be acting strange to you?') of the scale. They may sense something is wrong but not have the training or experience to determine that the strange acting man is actually one of five strange acting men who are about to hold up the bank.