Rebuilding Martial Arts From Scratch

[TheDarkness]

And, to make clear, I am not saying get rid of the martial arts system. I think it is fine for its purposes, and allows a fun entry.

 

However, if one wants the granularity of Hero in their martial arts, it is not really designed for that.

 

In fact, for entry level Hero, I would totally not oppose a "blaster" "teleporter" "speedster" version of the current martial arts maneuvers system, though I admit, I will not be the one designing it.

[Lucius]

Is this a counter-throw? I'm not understanding the trigger, unless it is one, then I understand.

No.

 

There is a zero cost non-Martial maneuver called "Trip." It does part of what Throw does. It puts a target on the ground and if they were moving does velocity damage. Otherwise, it doesn't do damage. The Trigger condition is the Trip itself, to create an attack that both puts the foe on the ground (or for a flying enemy, temporarily "disorients" them) AND hurts them.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says that's a heavy trip

[Lucius]

All this does is simulate each maneuver in combat through the powers, which is fine, but martial Arts functions as a power framework: its specifically built to be cheaper to better simulate a specific set of limited actions with a tight concept.  I think we need a new power framework that works for martial arts -- and for other structures such as "skill trees" and related magic systems.

Martial Arts if definitely very "point efficient." In fact, it gets such good "bang for the buck" that it's become practically mandatory for any combat oriented character to invest in Martial Arts.

 

 

Ultimate Martial Artists has the system for creating Martial Arts Maneuvers, which involves positive and negative point costs for the various "elements" that make up the Maneuver in game terms.

 

Even as it stands that system can be used - and I have used it - to create things such as certain of the arcane effects of the discipline of wizardry, or this for a haglike personification of entropy:

 

 

Deadly Touch

Maneuver OCV DCV Notes

4 Hands like Claws -2 +0 HKA 3d6 +1

4 Freezing Touch (Defense is Life Support: Cold, or Heat, Cold, or Temperature Control Powers) -1 +1 3d6 NND

4 Shreds of Darkness -1 -1 Flash 6d6

Notes: The Crone appears to rip ragged pieces of darkness out of the air and throw them onto the victim, obscuring sight.

4 Shard of silence -1 -1 Flash 6d6

Notes: The Crone appears to thrust something invisible at the victim's head

4 Reversal -1 -2 45 STR to Escape; Grab Two Limbs

8 +2 HTH Damage Class(es)

 

I have considered playing around with expanding the system to include new effects, perhaps even generalizing it to cover the entire set of all Powers.

 

But.

 

 

I have a concern that what THAT would do, would be to in effect make just about everything cheaper and instead of the situation where every combat oriented character takes Martial Arts, you end up with absolutely every character wanting to take Universal Arts because it's an unbelievably good deal.

 

Or, even worse, by tinkering with costs this way, we can end up unbalancing things.

 

 

Not that that's going to stop anyone from playing around with the ideas, nor should it.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is very concerned about balance - you can tell by looking at it

[Christopher R Taylor]

Right we need to make sure we don't create another Elemental Control that just gives people cheap stuff for the sake of making it cheap.

 

At present, neither power pool or multipower really does what we need for martial arts.

[Christopher]

Okay, I am confused about this thread. You said you only wanted to think about not using Martial Arts Maneuvers/rebuilding them with powers.

Yet you opearte as if the Standart Maneuvers do not exist either?

 

Principally I agree that Martial Arts (the rules construct) is pretty damn wierd. Possibly broken.

Martial Arts (the rules cosntruct) is more cost effective then buying extra STR, OCV and DCV, wich makes it interesting for heroic games (where weapons work differently and point are rarer).

 

Nearly all Martial Maneuvers are jsut slightly souped up versions of the Basic or Optional Combat Maneuvers.

There are a few Martial Maneuvers with no obvious "Basic Maneuver Counterpart". HSMA 243 has rules to translate those to "Basic Maneuvers".

 

We should at least "Basicallise" all the stuff that only Martial Arts can do. That would eliminate one need for it to be there (possibly the main need it is still carried along).
There is no need to rebuild stuff with powers if there is a Standart Combat Maneuver that can do it. You can use Standart Maneuvers with any form of Strenght, even Telekinesis.
Maybe also have a basic rule to translate Damage to STR for unusual Purposes (shooting a weapon out of the hand).

 

Afterwards maybe we should also restrict MA to "Heroic Campaigns only". Same was as DC doubling rule, Real Weapon and a lot of similar stuff is Limited to Heroic level games. It may still serve a purpose there due to the lower points.

 

But... does anyone else feel a bit like a heretic tearing down one of Aaron Allston's biggest contributions to Hero rules?

Don't know the guy.
But if he was half as dedicated as the average poster he would propably kick our asses if we did not replace his work with a better version as soon as we find one.

 

Martial Arts just feels to much like a Hack or Workaround. Something that was invented to serve a specific need of it's time, but has since been made useless by the development of the rules. A patch that has outlived it's usefullness but is carried along for nostalgia reasons.
Same way Automaton Powers were made proper powers. Figured Characteristics were Abolished. The DC doubling limit was removed for all but heroic campaigns.

 

 

It is never the basic rules that make a language or Ruleset difficulty to learn or master.

It is always the exceptions. The Hero system as I learned it strives to remove all exceptions, one itteration after the other.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Here's one rendition that you could incorporate with the maneuver's cost (a la Unified Power):

Target Falls: (5 Active, 1 Real)

​Teleportation 0m w/ Position Shift, Limited Power: Only to cause target to 'fall' (requiring a half phase to 'stand up') [Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness] (-1 1/2), Limited Power: Completely mitigated by successful Breakfall roll [Power loses about half of its effectiveness] (-1), Unified Power (-1/4), Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4), Leaves A Trail (-1/4)

 

If the 0m distance bugs you, you could do 1m which would make it 6 Active and it'd still maintain a Real cost of 1 CP.

Not even necessary. Just use the rules for knockback or knockdown, whichever you prefer for your campaign. Dice of Hand Attack/Blast can be added tonSTR to determine if the target experiences "knockdown", even if those dice dont actually add to damage. (Only to cause knockdown, -2)

[NuSoardGraphite]

Reading through thia thread, some of you guys are overthinking throws and exert maneuvers. These are functions of the Strength characteristic. These are things you can normally do with STR anyway. You can pick up a character and throw them to the ground without any sort of special maneuver really. Disarm is the same. Without a maneuver, you can use your strength to try and knock an obiect out of your opponents grip.

 

To create a "maneuver" all you need is bonus Strength to help facilitate the exert element that comes built into the characteristic. Its pretty simple.

[Lucius]

Reading through thia thread, some of you guys are overthinking throws and exert maneuvers. These are functions of the Strength characteristic. These are things you can normally do with STR anyway. You can pick up a character and throw them to the ground without any sort of special maneuver really. Disarm is the same. Without a maneuver, you can use your strength to try and knock an obiect out of your opponents grip.

 

To create a "maneuver" all you need is bonus Strength to help facilitate the exert element that comes built into the characteristic. Its pretty simple.

That's what I thought I was doing....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

That's what the palindromedary thinks I'm doing

[TheDarkness]

Christopher, I guess where I'm vacillating on my own iteration of this(at least in my overthinking head) is on cost structure. The basic cost of basic maneuvers, does it give a good baseline, or is it, itself, referencing a patch, and so will referencing that cause a problem?

 

As for making a system only for use in Heroic campaigns, I am not so keen on it, simply because I want to have the option for Hero's granularity in relation to martial arts(and, now that I think of it, skills) in any campaign I might run, or at least the option.

[TheDarkness]

Reading through thia thread, some of you guys are overthinking throws and exert maneuvers. These are functions of the Strength characteristic. These are things you can normally do with STR anyway. You can pick up a character and throw them to the ground without any sort of special maneuver really. Disarm is the same. Without a maneuver, you can use your strength to try and knock an obiect out of your opponents grip.

 

To create a "maneuver" all you need is bonus Strength to help facilitate the exert element that comes built into the characteristic. Its pretty simple.

My answer to this is similar to one part of my comment to Christopher. Yes, you can grab. That grab has a cost. The problem is, if we are, just to torture ourselves, designing an approach to martial arts that utilizes the system's granularity, then we cannot grandfather in cost structures from the existing patch, if the costs are fair in relation to the system we are talking about, then we can carry it over, but we cannot assume that a cost from the current approach should reflect what would be fair in a system more similar to the rest of Hero.

 

As such, I really think, though not all here might agree, that the 'maneuvers' approach is a bit of a dead end, and builds are the way to go, just like almost everything else in the game. The build for a common strike would be a default that everyone has, things like that, but there would still be a build underlying it.

 

The maneuver approach is good for ease of design, imo, but not at all for granularity.

 

Now rules, as in, KB and KD, being able to abort to defensive actions, these must be the basis, imo.

[TheDarkness]

Right we need to make sure we don't create another Elemental Control that just gives people cheap stuff for the sake of making it cheap.

 

At present, neither power pool or multipower really does what we need for martial arts.

I think, in response to this, we could continue to play with the ideas, with the knowledge that, at points where we may have fleshed out, to some degree, a system, we can then try to break it with builds.

 

So, what traits do we picture the kind of pool having that would serve our needs fairly?

[Christopher R Taylor]

As they are presently priced and function, martial arts are a good deal ,but not overpowered.  To me that means slightly cheaper than they should be, but not much - maybe a point or two at most.  For example, Legsweep (3 points) is massively valuable, but if it was more than 5 points, probably not worth buying.

[TheDarkness]

One thought on a pool that largely references skills and stats is that, given my assumption that any use will default to referencing things any character can do based on the rules(cause knockdown, strike, etc), there is somewhat of a natural limit to how powerful this could make someone. Stat increases will be the easiest part to game, imo.

 

Since the martial arts system is, itself, a pool that is invisible, with somewhat arbitrary rules, I think there is a use in designing one whose rules are clear, and can be applied to more that martial arts.

[Christopher]

Christopher, I guess where I'm vacillating on my own iteration of this(at least in my overthinking head) is on cost structure. The basic cost of basic maneuvers, does it give a good baseline, or is it, itself, referencing a patch, and so will referencing that cause a problem?

I think the basic maneuvers are just things you should normally not pay points for.

I don't need a power to flip a switch - it is just a everyman use of a fraction of my Strenght.

At the same time if I have the OCV and STR to pul lit off, I should not need to pay points for something like disarm or trip.

 

It annoyed me to no end that D&D required you to buy talents for just about every normal combat maneuver (or at least to make it feasible). If you can not do a disarm without having to pay for it, nobody is going to pay for it (aside from a really specialiced figther). Wich means nobody is going to use it.

And the combat just turns into a slog of "Strike Atrittion" like it does in D&D.

 

Combat is supposed to be exiting. A natural candidate for "meaningfull decisions" that make RPG's interesting. Reducing the number of meaningfull choices freely doable is not going to help with that.

Basic Maneuvers are one of those asumptions you just have to accept. Without it CV's, SPD, STR, Blast/HTH/Killing Attack, Defenses and the rest of COmbat atributes just totally loose thier purpose. Basic Maneuvers are the lynchpin that keep half the stats relevant.

[Lucius]

 

So at this point I want to ask:

 

What can Martial Maneuvers (as presently constituted) do that Basic Maneuvers cannot?

 

I propose

 

No Normal Defense Strike (yes, Choke does NND but it's a Grab, not a strike)

 

Barehanded Killing

 

Flash

 

"Exert" (extra STR for specialized purposes)

 

Velocity Damage with Impunity (Move-by and Move-Through inflict damage on the attacker.)

 

Am I missing anything?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'm not missing a palindromedary, here it is

[TheDarkness]

I think the basic maneuvers are just things you should normally not pay points for.

I don't need a power to flip a switch - it is just a everyman use of a fraction of my Strenght.

At the same time if I have the OCV and STR to pul lit off, I should not need to pay points for something like disarm or trip.

 

It annoyed me to no end that D&D required you to buy talents for just about every normal combat maneuver (or at least to make it feasible). If you can not do a disarm without having to pay for it, nobody is going to pay for it (aside from a really specialiced figther). Wich means nobody is going to use it.

And the combat just turns into a slog of "Strike Atrittion" like it does in D&D.

 

Combat is supposed to be exiting. A natural candidate for "meaningfull decisions" that make RPG's interesting. Reducing the number of meaningfull choices freely doable is not going to help with that.

Basic Maneuvers are one of those asumptions you just have to accept. Without it CV's, SPD, STR, Blast/HTH/Killing Attack, Defenses and the rest of COmbat atributes just totally loose thier purpose. Basic Maneuvers are the lynchpin that keep half the stats relevant.

I did not make myself clear, my fault.

 

I still think that certain maneuvers should be free. Largely the same ones that are free now.

 

My point was, those maneuvers, since MOST other maneuvers will be built off of them, should have a cost that makes sense, that is systematic and thus, can be replicated with modifications.

 

This is why I am loathe to grandfather in points values as they stand. They are based on an assumed, but undefined framework, one that will not work well for our purposes, imo, because as they become modified, problems will manifest. They are based off of what we feel they should cost, not what they are.

 

As such, sweep, for example, is naturally most likely to be built off of trip, though we certainly could debate this. Knowing a basis for the cost of trip that is rational, even though the maneuver is free(so the cost is not paid, merely defined for build purposes), we can find a value for the cost of trip.

 

Knowing those values, then, if we build a type of framework, we can quickly ascertain the goals and pitfalls of that framework.

 

So a good number of free maneuvers whose costs, though no one needs pay them, can then be used as a basis for more specialized maneuvers.

 

Now, since those maneuvers are free, it does not matter if, when building them, they are expensive if we build them. It only matters for more specialized maneuvers. And thus, the usefulness of a type of framework that would benefit a character who has a strong basis in skills based things, where they can reasonably build the character they want, while making it harder for a character who is, for example, really just a brick, to add one maneuver just to have extra damage classes, since they will not be as willing to pay for and build the framework that makes it more affordable.

[TheDarkness]

So at this point I want to ask:

 

What can Martial Maneuvers (as presently constituted) do that Basic Maneuvers cannot?

 

I propose

 

No Normal Defense Strike (yes, Choke does NND but it's a Grab, not a strike)

 

Barehanded Killing

 

Flash

 

"Exert" (extra STR for specialized purposes)

 

Velocity Damage with Impunity (Move-by and Move-Through inflict damage on the attacker.)

 

Am I missing anything?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'm not missing a palindromedary, here it is

I think that does cover the major things.

 

The thing that I think is important to keep in mind, is the cost of the basic maneuvers is a remnant of a patch, as far as I can tell. If we are proposing something beyond that patch, we MAY need to view the basic maneuver's costs to come with rational builds for the other maneuvers.

 

For example, dodge. Dodge does not cost what it represents, because it is a remnant of the martial arts system(I mean, its cost is). For our purposes, it needs to, otherwise we're going to run into some strange problems with modified dodge builds.

 

Yes, this will be more expensive. But it gives us a baseline that is not skewed by dropping the martial arts setup for those who wish to in their builds. Either they use that system, and get the discount, or they use the granular system, and have to use the super duper framework that does everything advertised without breaking the system. This way, both options are on the table.

[TheDarkness]

Putting down some current thoughts on this. I want to make clear, I don't expect anyone else to agree, I'm just putting this down in case it's useful to others.

 

Among the free maneuvers, dodge is the problem child. Most of the free maneuvers seem, at a brief glance, to impose penalties that might balance out their costs to zero. Dodge is the exception, involving three CSLs.

 

Martial maneuvers, as listed, might be a good test run for any framework designed. They involve more CSLs, and thus, more cost.

 

IF they(as listed, not their listed cost, their listed effect) were used as a test run for any framework, and a general guideline, this might be good.

 

Assuming we were to design a framework for skills and stats, using the example of martial maneuvers, the maximum stat gain is +15(at least, based on the 6th ed. Champions Complete). For such a framework, this might be a good baseline for a maximum stat gain that can be used in the framework.

 

The maximum CSLs required I'm a bit confused on, due to damage additions. I'll have to look it up later(it's late here, and I'm tired). If I'm remembering right, each 1D6 normal additional damage is 3 CSLs, but I don't have my book handy.

 

I'm thinking out loud here, there's likely to be some mistakes, forgive me.

[eepjr24]

Putting down some current thoughts on this. I want to make clear, I don't expect anyone else to agree, I'm just putting this down in case it's useful to others.

 

Among the free maneuvers, dodge is the problem child. Most of the free maneuvers seem, at a brief glance, to impose penalties that might balance out their costs to zero. Dodge is the exception, involving three CSLs.

 

Martial maneuvers, as listed, might be a good test run for any framework designed. They involve more CSLs, and thus, more cost.

 

IF they(as listed, not their listed cost, their listed effect) were used as a test run for any framework, and a general guideline, this might be good.

 

Assuming we were to design a framework for skills and stats, using the example of martial maneuvers, the maximum stat gain is +15(at least, based on the 6th ed. Champions Complete). For such a framework, this might be a good baseline for a maximum stat gain that can be used in the framework.

 

The maximum CSLs required I'm a bit confused on, due to damage additions. I'll have to look it up later(it's late here, and I'm tired). If I'm remembering right, each 1D6 normal additional damage is 3 CSLs, but I don't have my book handy.

 

I'm thinking out loud here, there's likely to be some mistakes, forgive me.

+2 CSL per DC. Minimum CSL that can be used this way is the 3 point level (small group). Limitation Only To Increase Damage (-½) is applied per 6e1 p447. That yields a real cost of 4 points per DC, assuming no other modifiers.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

Am I missing anything?

 

Disabling a location

 

Since the martial arts system is, itself, a pool that is invisible, with somewhat arbitrary rules, I think there is a use in designing one whose rules are clear, and can be applied to more that martial arts.

 

 

 agree that it would be necessary to make sure that it either doesn't apply to some things (stats, for instance) or it is no more cost effective than, say, "only in Hero ID."

[eepjr24]

I think that is a decent start place, maybe as high as -1/2 if folks figure out things that make it more limiting that I can currently imagine.

 

Limitations of the framework:

Must be related to a martial arts style.

Minimum purchase of N points.

Style is identifiable to other practitioners or knowledgeable persons.

Only usable via purchased weapon elements (one element is free).

Limited pool (Cannot contain X powers)

[TheDarkness]

I think that is a decent start place, maybe as high as -1/2 if folks figure out things that make it more limiting that I can currently imagine.

 

Limitations of the framework:

Must be related to a martial arts style.

Minimum purchase of N points.

Style is identifiable to other practitioners or knowledgeable persons.

Only usable via purchased weapon elements (one element is free).

Limited pool (Cannot contain X powers)

I would say that we might want to avoid the first and third. The first, because it rules out the eclectic fighter(like Daredevil) who routinely schools people who ARE from established styles. The third, because it rules out new styles unnecessarily, and prevents a player from making a martial artist who practices something other than a known style. Plus, they would be very difficult for a GM who wasn't also a martial artist to judge and enforce.

 

I strongly favor not allowing ANY powers in the pool, but I'm not sure anyone else agrees on that one. Since powers already work quite well in the existing frameworks, and a pool that would, almost by definition, allow naked advantages(NND to STR, for example) might open the road to abuse.

[TheDarkness]

+2 CSL per DC. Minimum CSL that can be used this way is the 3 point level (small group). Limitation Only To Increase Damage (-½) is applied per 6e1 p447. That yields a real cost of 4 points per DC, assuming no other modifiers.

 

- E

Thanks! So the cost of some maneuvers would definitely be higher than figured. I couldn't remember for the life of me how that worked.

[TheDarkness]

 

 

 agree that it would be necessary to make sure that it either doesn't apply to some things (stats, for instance) or it is no more cost effective than, say, "only in Hero ID."

I think it would almost have to apply to stats, but with a cap. Too many martial maneuvers depend on a STR bonus. But that bonus seems to cap out at +15.

[eepjr24]

I would say that we might want to avoid the first and third. The first, because it rules out the eclectic fighter(like Daredevil) who routinely schools people who ARE from established styles. The third, because it rules out new styles unnecessarily, and prevents a player from making a martial artist who practices something other than a known style. Plus, they would be very difficult for a GM who wasn't also a martial artist to judge and enforce.

 

I strongly favor not allowing ANY powers in the pool, but I'm not sure anyone else agrees on that one. Since powers already work quite well in the existing frameworks, and a pool that would, almost by definition, allow naked advantages(NND to STR, for example) might open the road to abuse.

 

I am open to discussing any of them. Having a unique style does not mean you have no style though. It can still be learned by perceptive onlookers or those who have fought him in the past. And it certainly does have it's basis in boxing and probably escrima, with elements from other things (capoeira, kung fu, kali, etc). 

 

As to the powers, you could not model Daredevil for instance without having some powers in the mix. He certainly has an NND and strike based flashes for instance.

 

- E