Rebuilding Martial Arts From Scratch

[Lucius]

 

 

 

Disabling a location

It doesn't take Martial Arts to Disable a location, it just requires using the Disabling rules.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks if one can be immune to disabling by taking No Hit Locations

[InfiniteKarma]

As a framework, the point costs don't seem incredibly hard to make work. If anything, you can rebuild martial arts cheaper.

 

Martial Arts Maneuver framework (25 active points), lockout[can only use one maneuver at a time regardless of point costs] (-.5), restrainable (-.5), visible[obvious martial arts maneuvers](-.25), duration limitations[instant] (-.5), 8 real points

 

After that, each maneuver looks like it can be built from the basic maneuvers on 25 active points of OCV/DCV/strength/HKA/naked advantages, and purchased with 1 real point after the common limitations are factored in. With the minimum of 10 points in MA, you'll have at least two maneuvers, which matches a minimal martial art. With that build, a few limitations, like the need to buy Weapon Elements, penalties to OCV/DCV, and restrictions on which basic maneuvers the bonuses are applied to, are being given away for free, and some maneuvers aren't even using the full 25 active points.

 

Of course, buying all of those naked advantages and skill levels within a framework is normally "GM's permission" only, but if the game designer gave permission for these specific effects, that seems good enough for me.

[Lee]

Hey everyone, forgive me if I've missed something (I did go back and re-read the entire thread). But are you forgetting the HERO System Martial Arts book (HSMA)?

 

What I mean is, on HSMA 106-107 there is a point breakdown of each of the martial arts elements (so that Advantages can be applied appropriately to them). Couldn't you use them to determine what the "point cost" of the basic maneuvers are and then determine if the martial "improvements" are properly costed? I know they are not actually the elements built as a power but it might be helpful. If you really want them defined as powers...

 

On HSMA 110, there are suggested power build starting points for most of the maneuver elements as well as some limitations that can be applied to simulate some of the other elements. Again, it may not be exactly what you want, but it might give a better starting point that going strictly from scratch.

 

It seems the "wheel" has already been invented--you just need to figure out how to build a Lamborghini with them...

 

Lee

[Christopher R Taylor]

The idea isn't "how do martial arts get built" but rather "can we create a framework that would not only work to build martial arts as they exist now, but could be used for other constructions such as skill trees, spell systems, etc?"

 

Its a larger picture about a rule, not specific about martial arts.

[Lee]

Its a larger picture about a rule, not specific about martial arts.

 

Ah, okay. I misunderstood. Thanks.

 

Lee

[TheDarkness]

Christopher Taylor nailed it. The martial arts costs in the table you are talking about are a patch over the existing system, they cannot really be used to design things as freely as the overall game system allows in everything else. They also limit martial arts to only that which is included in them, and that particular interpretation of martial arts and how it should play out in the larger system.

 

The counterpunch is an example I have used a number of times. The counterpunch is defined the way it is because that is how it is written in the rules. However, something much closer to an actual counterpunch is perfectly possible outside of the martial arts frameworks, but totally impossible inside it, because it lacks Hero's ability to make what you imagine.

 

My avoidance of using the existing frameworks is that there is solid reason not to allow naked advantages and skills in the existing frameworks, because at least the former could easily lead to abuse.

 

However, if a framework existed specifically for exactly those two things, built in a way that did not create the same abuses, then this would be helpful not just for the martial artist, but for a number of other character types and uses.

 

I will admit to currently being stumped on how to build it.

 

Out of curiosity, I know magic came up in reference to the use for such a framework, not having played the fantasy version, what sort of things are needed for such a framework that would aid magic?

 

As far as martial arts is concerned, really a framework that did not allow powers, was largely dedicated to added STR. naked advantages, penalties, CSLs/OCV and DCV bonuses, and allowed no naked advantages to powers, would suffice. For eye pokes, one could simply buy flash outside of the framework. But for magic, I'm not sure what is called for.

[TheDarkness]

Well its good to study the other frameworks for limitations and structures.  For example: what are the limitations on Power Pool that make it have a discount over buying every power you can think of in a list?  What are the limitations on Multipower?  Because with that as a basic foundation it gives us the concepts to use for a new framework.

 

For example, Elemental Control was rejected because it didn't really actually limit anything but just gave people free points to offset the cost of some build concepts.

Bringing your comment to the front, because I think it's a good place to start.

 

I'll start. Broadly speaking, MPPs allow a number of powers, set from game to game, that can be used, to some extent at the same time.

 

VPP gives a broad range of powers that can change from game to game.

 

Both give a fairly strong discount. Stronger than I suspect the pool we are talking about should get, otherwise you can buy the whole skill catalog for 1 pt. per skill. For martial arts, this could also prevent some munchkin tendencies. For example, using the counterpunch I discussed earlier in the thread, where it was a triggered event. If the discount is not too large, then it will be cost prohibitive to try to make a counterpunch that is too good. If the pool works like others, where there are points in reserve to cover the APs of any use, then the cost of those reserves will quickly rise just to cover that one counterpunch.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree, the concept doesn't really need much of a discount.  I would envision it as being not about a cheaper way to buy things, but a useful way to structure them into a coherent package.  There should be a small discount for being limited in its nature and range of abilities or purchase but not a very significant one.  If its done right, it could do what Elemental Control was meant to - encourage tight concepts with a small discount for their narrow scope - as well as give skill monsters a way of building a competitive character in a superhero campaign.  At present, if you build Batman, just being good at all the stuff he knows uses up all your points to build him able to fight and have gadgets, too.

 

The framework's limitations on purchases seem to be these as i conceive of it:

-Only abilities that fit a tight construction concept: martial arts, fire magic, skill tree for Arms Warrior, Ice Elemental powers, Street level detective

-Limited application of these abilities, so no crossover (you cannot link to or out of the framework, you cannot use maneuvers with other maneuvers, etc)

-You must buy in a specific order or grouping (cannot buy this ability until you buy the previous one in the skill tree, or you must buy at least 3 separate maneuvers)

 

Just some thoughts as I wake up

[TheDarkness]

What sort of things would be in the fire magic framework?

 

Also, when you say you cannot link to or out of the framework, does this mean you cannot do naked advantages? If so, this could be problematic for martial arts, as various manuevers are based off of strength, though I may be misunderstanding.

 

EDIT: I have since found the answer to that last question, as +10 STR is not a naked advantage, merely a stat as a power.

[TheDarkness]

I raise thee, thread, from the pit. Arise! Arise!

 

So, in modeling my own martial arts, I've decided to take a position of going back to formula. I'm treating all maneuvers as results of game physics, not the physics themselves. Since martial maneuvers are often based on the ordinary maneuvers, I am modeling the ordinary maneuvers as well.

 

Toward this end, I am not trying to emulate the martial arts system OR the maneuvers closely, BUT I am trying to include balancing features which I think the maneuvers system is actually quite good at recognizing.

 

For example, block is an effective tool for slow Speed and Dex characters to have a fighting chance. That FUNCTION should be preserved, but that BUILD is problematic, because it is absolute(no matter the opponent's DEX, you will go first=infinite unpaid DEX bonus).

 

It is my intention that basic maneuvers are still free. It is simply a matter of defining what they would cost so that moves modeled off of them can be easily made and priced.

 

None of the rules for having a martial arts pool will be carried over from the patch. You don't need KS: energy blasts to have an energy blast. If you want KS: sword and shield vs. war hammer, you certainly may get benefits from it, but you don't need to buy it. I've met plenty of people who fight well, but not because they have a deep knowledge of their system, but more, the combination of tools they tend to use are highly effective together. You won't need ten slots or whatever, although more slots will make the pool effective.

 

I'm working from a perspective of basic builds for specific effects. I am not trying to reduce costs, I'm trying to make the exact builds now. After, once the lay of the land is clearer to me, I will attempt the ineffable act of designing a new kind of pool. As justification for a pool that may include skills, I point to the obvious pseudo pool that is the current martial arts system. Needs a buy-in of points? Check. Needs a range of things that can be included while having a narrow enough spectrum of topic matter that the pool applies to? Check. Need slots? Check. It's a pool, just not one whose rules and cost structure is truly defined in Hero terms, and one that includes skills to boot.

[TheDarkness]

So, my current thoughts on the maneuvers-these aren't full builds yet, just the approach I'm thinking of taking:

 

 

THE FREE MANEUVERS

 

block

OCV vs. OCV roll with a trigger, if the defender wins the roll, they attack the next segment

Issues:

• How to model an OCV vs. OCV roll that, if succeeding, cancels out the attack effect
• whether attacking the next segment is too powerful

 

disarm

Not sure this one needs any change

 

dodge

No need to change, simple build

 

grab

some minor things. Squeezing should not be as damaging as slamming or throwing. Not sure if I'd model the OCV/DCV penalties the same.

 

haymaker

-5 DCV, +4 DC, takes time, simple build

 

move by/move through

I'm not even going to deal with this one right now. Lot's of build related things, I don't think it needs much adjusting for its build

 

multiple attack

This, I'm not treating as a mechanic, but as game physics. So no build necessary, it's a part of the landscape that one can do with maneuvers and other things.

 

shove

This, to some extent, I think is more a property of STR than necessarily a maneuver per se.

 

strike

simple enough

 

Trip

A bonus of strength with the caveat that all strength in the attack is for purposes of determining knockdown only.

 

choke

-2 OCV, -2 DCV, NND, requires grab

 

club weapon

I'm not sure how to model changing the damage type, since it is literally point per point the same, I'm not sure it needs to be modeled. However, I am baffled at why the DCV gets a +2 bonus on this power- it's essentially just a strike. There should be no DCV bonus.

 

roll with a punch

basically hardened damage reduction with an OCV vs. OCV activation roll and a -1d6 on the knockback roll.

 

 

 

THE MARTIAL MANEUVERS

 

martial choke

just one added D6 NND and no penalty on DCV

 

actually, most of these just are beefed up versions of the original moves, so once those costs are clear, these will be easy enough builds.

 

The problem children here are throws, trips, and sweeps.

 

I've been working on modeling them based on KD instead of the current versions modeled on change environment. Trips and sweeps that works easily enough.

 

Throws, because of the comic book genre norm of throwing people huge distances, is a bit more problematic. Essentially, two totally different things are lumped into that same maneuver. Comic book fastball specials, and throwing people as in performing a throw.

 

These two things should not function the same at all. And the fact that the martial throw does not require grabs also throws a curveball into it. Martial throws should be skill based in their success, and could add strength to their effect. And, the fact that the thrower could lift the weight of the attacker if they were a barbell has less influence on whether they can do so in a fight- leverage plays a huge factor. I can generally ground out much stronger people trying to throw me, and I'm hardly alone in this. Almost all throws depend on momentum from the person being thrown. As it stands, throws seem to favor only Strength, and I think this is based on being paired with the fastball special.

 

It doesn't have to mirror reality exactly, but separating these two would add throwing as a useful option for a lot of non-strength based characters.

 

Anyway, that's where I am with this. Once I have a rational idea on the costs, then a framework to make those costs fit. But the framework needs to be suitable for skills, as it needs to function with bonuses to OCV, DCV, DC, etc. Then, that framework needs to be adjusted for other uses than martial arts.

[TheDarkness]

Oh, and groundfighting. The optional groundfighting rules in CC are, um, odd. The penalties for medium and long weapons are almost not even penalties. And not allowing things defined as kicks or making people fall makes sense only if the other person is on the ground- if not, that rules out two of the only working approaches someone on the ground has against someone standing. I suppose the medium and long weapon penalties must be in relation to standing enemies, and the no kicks and falling versus the ones on the ground, but it seems a bit off.

 

I'm tending to think of groundfighting in terms of 'as above, so below'. If I choose to flesh out an approach to groundfighting, I may view having mount as standing for the mounting fighter, and prone for the one mounted. In which case, sweeps would function as sweep when standing. Anyway, not working on that at this point.

[dmjalund]

As for club weapon, I can see the +2 DCV (at least vs HTH) as being able to strike while being a little further away than you would be using fists. It can also include "casual parry" as well.

[TheDarkness]

As for club weapon, I can see the +2 DCV (at least vs HTH) as being able to strike while being a little further away than you would be using fists. It can also include "casual parry" as well.

Does striking with the same weapon, but not as a club, add +2 DCV? I'm away from my books, it's an honest question.

[whitekeys]

Reading through thia thread, some of you guys are overthinking throws and exert maneuvers. These are functions of the Strength characteristic. These are things you can normally do with STR anyway. You can pick up a character and throw them to the ground without any sort of special maneuver really. Disarm is the same. Without a maneuver, you can use your strength to try and knock an obiect out of your opponents grip.

 

To create a "maneuver" all you need is bonus Strength to help facilitate the exert element that comes built into the characteristic. Its pretty simple.

 

Indeed. And while Christopher cleared this up by saying it's not about the martial maneuvers themselves, but about creating a new system that can be applied to other things, I would say the same principle should apply - we may be overthinking it. Furthermore, two points:

 

1. Little attention has been given to the 10 CP minimum cost of Martial Maneuvers. I feel this explains a little about why the martial maneuvers seem like a patch put over the rest of the HERO rules. It seems to me that the maneuvers are an extension of the combat rules themselves, and thus, not much of a patch at all. a more accurate view, in my opinion, is that HERO has pillars each holding a different load. Are not the Skills quite different than the Powers? Different from the Complications?

 

2. Little attention has been given so far to Skills as a replacement.

 

So, given 1 and 2, I'm going to suggest this: a Martial Arts Skill, 10 CP, defined by the user as a kind of martial arts style when purchased and cannot be changed thereafter. The cost structure of the skill would be the same as other skills for increasing the roll. During combat, you come up with the equivalent of a "Surprise Move" but is actually a "Martial Move", define what kind of bonus you hope to get (bonus OCV, DCV, trip), and you're given a set of pluses or minuses to the Martial Move Roll depending on how much of a bonus/effect you want. Then, this effect applies to your attack roll thereafter. You must declare you're attempting a Martial Arts Maneuver before you roll an attack roll. If the roll fails, you fail to effect the target with the move (miss / no attack roll thereafter). You can abort to roll. Since all of the basic combat maneuvers exist, this skill can be used to augment them, or make them better, which is what seems to have been the consensus on what the Martial Maneuvers were in the first place. Any of the proposed list of things that Martial Maneuvers can do that Basic Maneuvers cannot do, proffered by Lucius, could be covered by this skill, assuming that we thought those things couldn't just be done already, without any extra rules.

 

Better yet, they could be bought as categories, as in the Navigation Skill, and would function as Adders to your attacks thereafter.

 

This could be used for other things like spell systems, assuming you had a combat-related effect that you wanted to produce. If a basic Blast-like power is purchased and defined as a "Fire", then the propose Martial Arts Rolls, which in this case would turn into a Fire Magic Roll, would also function similar to a Power Skill Roll, but would have specific combat-related effects. 

 

Thoughts on this?

[TheDarkness]

I think the issue is, throws, unlike fastball specials, which are a genre norm, are heavily skill based. Strength helps, but generally, if you see a strong person throwing someone, they have some skill in it. Throws are really, really skill based. There's few aspects of fighting, aside from locks, that are more dependent on this.

 

In the martial arts setup, this is not even possible: the buy-in for the system, which I still contend looks and behaves like a pool that is clearly giving a discount on moves, simultaneously makes any other builds unreasonably costly for less effect AND defines martial arts maneuvers in an unnecessarily fixed and, I would contend, dated manner that cannot be reproduced in any other way, and whose cost structure is arbitrary and vague.

 

Further, to contend that they are system physics, one would have to show how they don't defy system physics. Yet, if throw is a function of Strength, then why is the act itself, aside from fastball special, which is really mainly a supers genre norm, not based on the long established means for determining a prone state, knockback and knockdown, which are directly tied to STR?

 

If they are system physics, exactly WHAT is the cost structure's internal logic? Simply having a table that lists cost is not the same as a systematized approach, and that is entirely what the martial arts system is, tables that seem like maybe fair amounts if one doesn't look too closely at the builds.

 

The advantage of the martial arts patch is that it makes making a martial artist that matches the memes that that patch allows quick and simple, but it does so in an entirely different way than everything else in the game.

 

If this was done for energy projectors, bricks, spell casters, mentallists, and speedsters, people would scream bloody murder. The game would totally lose it's strong points.

 

Never mind that the definition of martial arts that the system allows sometimes screams 1980s. I mean, screams it loudly, at the top of its lungs, with a Frankie Says shirt on. It's perfectly marketed to me thirty years ago, but it's narrow in its interpretations, and it enforces those interpretations with an unnecessary vigor.

 

To further argue that it is a result of system physics, not physics themselves, I will again put forward the block. It exists to allow slow characters a fighting chance, more than anything else. This is a result of the physics of having speed and Dex stats. Not a physics unto itself. It is not the only way to do this. It is one good approach to allowing this, it shows a keen awareness of issues that need to be involved in playing the game, but its vagueness of design and magical cost structure make it impossible to choose any other way to do it without losing points.

 

Any other part of the system, a patch like that would be seen as unacceptable and destroying granularity. Further, its totally unnecessary to have in place. There's no reason to not use the main system's methods for building things. Skills are under powers all the time. That doesn't make them powers, that means they have special effects, like everything else in the game. It is perfectly allowable to make a new maneuver of +STR for knockback, only 1 hex, and call it a short distance throw. And where would it be listed? Under the powers.

 

To claim this is making it too complex is missing a key point. The martial arts system's complexity is undefined. You cannot measure it, and so comparing it to anything else is impossible. It says X is a function of STR, then arbitrarily makes its effect something more related to weather control. It also makes its effect absolute, while making it cost less than one that isn't. What is the cost structure of that for those who wish to build a spell that does the exact same thing?

 

Let's suppose we price out the actual martial arts maneuvers by points. Then say, here, ten points, you can have all this. Then we build an equivalent amount in points and numbers of nuclear blast powers. We're not allowing them to be sold for ten points, not a chance.

 

And yet, the point value should be the same, the effect should be equitable.

 

In short, granularity. Every part of Hero has it but one. There's no real need for that to be true.

[TheDarkness]

That said, it's less my intention to argue that the martial arts system would be better served done as legitimate builds, but to prove it for my own purposes and for the fun of building it.

[TheDarkness]

Okay, my current thoughts on an approach to throw.

 

Split off fast ball special into a genre-specific thing for supers.

 

For throws, as in a martial maneuver that is not genre specific, modelling it on KB/KD efficiently does the trick, I think. Plus, since damage is already being done, there is no extra roll required, merely possible extra dice. I am currently leaning toward letting it remain OCV vs. OCV, as this is a fair representation of throws, getting a throw requires a huge risk of being thrown.

 

This allows builds for various effects. A throw that lands the person at your feet(KD only), AND a throw that throws them for distance. That pretty much describes all the throws I can think of with one build structure.

 

One thing I'm not sure how to model. KB/KD presumes that the direction of the throw is forward to the thrower. BUT, there are a lot of fun options that could be opened up by allowing the thrower to determine the direction, and that mimics a wide range of actual throws with just one build.

 

Another idea I'm playing with relates to builds for counter-throws. Since the initial roll is OCV vs. OCV, I'm thinking of taking the logic of this one further. If one has a counter-throw maneuver(whether for KD only, or for distance), the trigger would be the OCV vs. OCV roll, with the winner of that roll getting to throw. Not sure if this is kosher, but if it is, it would allow the entire process to be decided in a very concise number of rolls.

 

I also am intending to tie in a Reading an Opponent skill, which can be bought for striking, for throws, for ground fighting, for specific weapons(KS: sword vs. spear, KS: Great Sword vs. Sword and Shield), etc. I'm playing with the idea of that skill being advantageous for counter maneuvers, or more, the lack of it being disadvantageous.

[TheDarkness]

The framework's limitations on purchases seem to be these as i conceive of it:

-Only abilities that fit a tight construction concept: martial arts, fire magic, skill tree for Arms Warrior, Ice Elemental powers, Street level detective

-Limited application of these abilities, so no crossover (you cannot link to or out of the framework, you cannot use maneuvers with other maneuvers, etc)

-You must buy in a specific order or grouping (cannot buy this ability until you buy the previous one in the skill tree, or you must buy at least 3 separate maneuvers)

 

 

Bringing this back up as the most clear explanation we have for some guidelines for framework design...

 

Since there could not be linking to things out of the framework, it would, by definition, have to allow skills to be in the framework.

 

For martial arts, for order of grouping, for example, one would have to buy throw(KD) and throw(KB) and KS: Reading an Opponent(for throws my player has) before buying counter-throw. Counter-strike would have an even lengthier list. Or, it could be made that you cannot counter a move that you yourself don't have. Or it could be made that if you are trying to counter a move you don't have, you have to make a Reading an Opponent roll at a penalty.

 

Or, the order of grouping could be more campaign specific. The problem with enforcing MUST BUY A BEFORE BUYING B is in how to put that in game design terms that preserve balance for the framework. Perhaps tiers of APs, the power must have one slot within X APs before it can have a slot of >X<Y APs? Minimum three slots, I agree on that, and that's three slots NOT of consecutive tiers, but three separate slots in the first AP tier.

 

The real problem is determining what is the base level. Martial arts has a bit of a workaround, as the base level would, in most cases, be the free maneuvers. Arbitrary points might make it so that the cheapest version of a certain effect would be above what is considered first tier, and so there would be no way to model it.

 

A thought. The first tier, perhaps, should be the absolute cheapest version of it while still having the desired effect. For example, for throws, throw for KD only would be cheaper than martial throw for distance, so that would have to be bought first.

 

It could be a rule of the frame that first tier would be:

1. The base power without advantages, with or without disadvantages, if it still fulfills the effect, or...
2. The base power with the least advantages to achieve the effect

This would still require some sort of point cap on the base power so that people don't just throw in +100 Str off the bat AND a point cap for this from one tier to the next, so that they don't add +100 STR on the next tier.

 

APs seems the most likely measure, that way, even with a lot of limitations, a high powered thing or one with a lot of advantages will tend to naturally come after a similar one with less advantages and definitely so if the former had both a lot of power and a lot of advantages.

 

In this case, not only the framework has a tight theme, but the sub-slots as well. In fact, the slots might be, in actual use, just headers for the sub-slots. Fire magic. Dispelling magic. Shield magic. Strikes. Throws. Sword.

 

Then there's the question of pool points. Magic will tend to have more, whereas the normal martial artist will have less, as each move will require less than, say, Dumbledore's 'dance in my world of fire' magic. If one wanted to make a super level martial artist, they could up that pool, just like in other things. If a fantasy character was not a mage, but merely someone who could do a few spells, theirs could be quite small.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well it wouldn't have to always be necessarily in order of purchase, but could instead be a required purchase minimum: you cannot buy fewer than 3 maneuvers or abilities, for example.

[TheDarkness]

The other advantage to the set-up I put above for determining tiers is, since the first tier is any base power with or without disadvantages that achieves the effect, or, if that is not possible, one with the least advantages to achieve it, then it allows the tier one a range where someone can buy a very limited version of the power that is highly conditional, but someone more specialized can have less conditions on it, so it is better, but still within the first tier.

[TheDarkness]

Well it wouldn't have to always be necessarily in order of purchase, but could instead be a required purchase minimum: you cannot buy fewer than 3 maneuvers or abilities, for example.

I agree with that. However, I kind of like the idea you put forward of there being a sort of sequence. It places a natural limit on the framework, and gives the feel of something skills-based to boot.

[TheDarkness]

Further, I'm thinking the pool might require skills, not just allow them.

 

It allows them a discount, and for non-combat skills does not require sub-slots, and if it has them, those would probably involve specific subskills within that skill.

 

Skills that are used throughout the pool are listed and their cost placed under the pool heading.

 

Skills that are only used in subslots are included in their header.

 

Skills listed in a Skills Pool may ONLY be used for what is laid out in that pool. This will have less effect on non-combat skills, only serving to make it more feasible to make a street detective or that sort of thing.

 

For the combat skills, it will have a bigger effect. CSLs in that pool cannot be applied to maneuvers they do not have in that pool, including the free maneuvers(which are, in effect, in their own Skills Pool that is completely subsidized).

 

How I'm picturing this at this point:

 

Skills Pool: Martial Arts(pool points: XXX)

Skills: X CSLs, +X STR

Slot 1: Throws- Skill: Throws

Tier 1: +X STR for knockdown only

 +X STR for knockback only

Tier 2: +X STR

Tier 3: Counterthrow-  Skill: Reading an Opponent(throwing), trigger(OCV VS. OCV for throws against the character), +X OCV for this roll only, if succeeds, +X STR throw

Slot 2: Strikes: Skill: Striking methods

Tier 1: +X...

 

It discounts skills, it discounts the maneuvers, but it also requires the buying of more skills and more slots.

[TheDarkness]

On my view of why a framework that can include skills is warranted, aside from the fact that skills under powers are already not that uncommon.

 

There are many characters whose skills are on the order of a power, but not necessarily a massive power.

 

Batman's detective skills, from the start, are on the order of a power. As are his fighting skills.

 

Daredevil's fighting skills.

 

Aragorn on Weathertop, fighting off a number of nazgul with a sword and a torch.

 

Frodo's completely non-magical resistance to the ring. And Gollum's.

 

Legolas' archery.

 

Robin Hood's.

 

Mister Fantastic's science skills from the start.

 

Bruce Banner's.

 

The Beast's.

 

The Flash's.

 

Tyrian Lannister's political savvy.

 

Now, to buy these in the game tends to eat points, although Tyrian did get to sell back some physical traits. And yet, the game effect for them is often not equal to the points. Yet, if you start with a Batman with a shadow of his detective skills, it's not like you will get more chances in game to play such skills, there will be less.

 

Now, combat skills get used more often, and yet, those are exactly the skills you most often DO see in the powers section.

 

With the pool I laid out some ideas for above(based on criterion supplied by Christopher), the pool would actually make it so that the combat skills would entail more points in expenditures, due to the requirement that they be tied to maneuvers, AND due to the fact that you will often have to first buy lower point versions that do the desired effect, but have limitations or are not at the ultimate level you want. Whereas, for skills that have less play-time, you will not have to do the same thing. Further, as in all pools, the topic matter will be narrowed.

 

In essence, this pool would be for those things that characters do that are in the order of a power, but either require associated skills or are skills in a narrow field. Batman could not put his driving skill in here, that's just maybe a skill he's good at in his skills list. But his detective skills, with disguise and forensics and all, would go in one. Mister Fantastic's science skills would go in one.

 

On the higher order of power, a sorceror, with their spells tied to knowledge of the powers that be and the rituals and all, could likewise make use of it.

 

BUT, unlike a VPP, they could not simply buy the big powers that they want. They would be forced to pay for tiers, and while it is discounted, it will still cost. While the biggest cost will be the pool to power the most powerful spells, the small spells maybe still add a little. And every group of powers must have an associated skill.

 

That's my view.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I used to buy skill monsters like Batman with an elemental control -- Detective Skills.  It didn't save a lot of points, but when you have 25 skills, they start to add up and yet aren't a tremendous impact on most games.  It makes sense that Batman can speak some Mandarin and knows the layout of most major cities, but it comes up so rarely the points are hardly worth it.