What makes Hero System, Hero System?

[zslane]

In Hero system, the DEX 10, SPD 7 Speedster might start off without initiative, vs the Dex 18 SPD 4 Brick, but since the speedster gets nearly twice as many actions, and will quickly gain initiative. Unless the Brick can Stun (or in certain phases, Block) the Speedster, the speedster will retain that initiative, and even if they lose it, they will regain it fairly quickly.

I was assuming the OP was referring to cases where the SPD is the same between two adversaries and that it is only DEX that determines move order. Any other comparison is invalid because SPD ends up dictating move order more than DEX.

[ghost-angel]

The speed chart allowing for one Character to have more actions than another Character in a 12-Phase Period is not simply initiative, and there are few mitigating effects to just the actions allowed alone (what one does with those actions is a different matter completely though).

[zslane]

Initiative systems determine when characters get to act (relative to each other). In the Hero System, the Speed Chart takes over this duty. It is nothing more than a way to distribute actions (Phases) across a fixed period of in-game time (a Turn). D&D's "initiative roll", combined with rules for multiple attacks, is effectively that system's Speed Chart.

 

Maybe there is a disagreement over how to define "initiative" or an "initiative system," but I see the Speed Chart as nothing more than the Hero System's initiative mechanic, albeit a far more sophisticated one than the basic initiative roll that more primitive games use.

[eepjr24]

Initiative systems determine when characters get to act (relative to each other). In the Hero System, the Speed Chart takes over this duty. It is nothing more than a way to distribute actions (Phases) across a fixed period of in-game time (a Turn). D&D's "initiative roll", combined with rules for multiple attacks, is effectively that system's Speed Chart.

 

Maybe there is a disagreement over how to define "initiative" or an "initiative system," but I see the Speed Chart as nothing more than the Hero System's initiative mechanic, albeit a far more sophisticated one than the basic initiative roll that more primitive games use.

I agree. You can "dumb down" Hero SPD / Initiative to be very D&D like in many aspects by simply having a set SPD chart and then use how much you make a DEX roll by as your initiative to add randomness. You can reset that every phase or turn as you desire. But unmodified SPD with the other tools mentioned elsewhere (holding phases, delayed phases, extra segment / phase, lightning reflexes, haymakers, etc) the Hero system is much more versatile and variable than D&D.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think at least some of the time people find Hero too regimental and predictable is the result of people not taking advantage of all the depth of strategy possible in a Hero battle.

[zslane]

I think at least some of the time people find Hero too regimental and predictable is the result of people not taking advantage of all the depth of strategy possible in a Hero battle.

This. x1000.

 

Of course, at least half of the roleplayers I played with over the years didn't have heads for strategy and tactics. They were never going to appreciate the depth of strategy possible in a Hero battle. Naturally, their critical assessment of Hero's combat mechanics must be taken with a grain of salt.

[Ninja-Bear]

I think at least some of the time people find Hero too regimental and predictable is the result of people not taking advantage of all the depth of strategy possible in a Hero battle.

By depth do you mean using all optional maneuvers? And blocking isn't quite the guarrenttee that it is made out to be. You still have to have the next phase in common to be able to go first against a blocked opponent. If you have a speed spread, this may not happen.

[eepjr24]

By depth do you mean using all optional maneuvers? And blocking isn't quite the guarrenttee that it is made out to be. You still have to have the next phase in common to be able to go first against a blocked opponent. If you have a speed spread, this may not happen.

I think he means the optional and standard maneuvers (haymakers are actually easier to land for lower dex characters, brace is easier if everyone else has already attacked, etc) plus the option to hold a phase, lightning reflexes (which is both cheap and granular and can be cheaper with additional limitations), surprise, aborts, etc. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

By depth do you mean using all optional maneuvers? 

 

 

You don't even need to use optional rules.  Just plain blocking, aborting phases (block, dodge), delaying phases, and extra time on some powers can make a big change in who goes when.

[ghost-angel]

Initiative systems determine when characters get to act (relative to each other). In the Hero System, the Speed Chart takes over this duty.

 

Speed and Dex; let's not forget Dex - all things being equal Dex determiens order of action (and that whole thing where because of that is now costs twice what other characteristics cost - I'd digress but it's a sticking point for me);

 

The two factors together are the RAW for the entirety of the Initiative System in Hero - which is a much more complex, nuanced, and in truth, useful system than merely rolling a dice, writing down an order of action, and then trading blows for a while....

 

It's certainly a defining aspect of Hero Combat...

[zslane]

Agreed!

[Ninja-Bear]

Legally you can build a concept several different ways and all be "correct".

[Alcamtar]

I think Hero for me is a whole. I could point to various parts, but there are lots of little details, like how Concealment is used for both hiding and searching, or how normal damage is denoted by parentheses, particular point costs, or even even specific abbreviations like "RSR" or "NND". Even the dynamics of play are important, like the way CSLs can be used, the STUN lotto, etc. Some things like the Sweep maneuver I first encountered with Hero back in the day, and I feel like D&D stole it and 6E messed it up. When I think of Hero all these things come to mind. It is as much as feeling or mood as it is a set of features. I think 4E will probably always be my yardstick for Hero-ness, warts and all. 

[Tasha]

What I think are the things that Define the Hero System

1) Point based character Generation. Everyone is built on the same number of points,

2) Everything is built from the same power points. (ex perhaps Martial Arts Maneuvers), but the basic principle is that everything in the system is either a building block or is built from the building blocks. No having to rely on a game author's judgement to balance abilities. You can see how everything is built so you can know how powerful something is.
3) Totally Flexable allows you to build pretty much ANYTHING you can imagine. This is why I love 6e's Secondary Characteristics not being Figured anymore.
4) Complications. Making sure that the Player thinks about weaknesses and plothooks for the PC.
5) All to do rolls are based on Attacker Stat Vs Defender Stat (ie OCV vs DCV), (Perception vs Stealth) etc. Also the system is consistant.

6) Combat Maneuvers that don't require staring in a rulebook to use. They all use the same bonus/Penalty vs CV, +DC, other effects format.
7) Delaying Combat Actions. This is a real benefit in Hero. Other games stole flawed versions of it, but only hero's is flexable and actually pretty easy to GM for
8) Dex/SPD segmented initiative chart.
9) No absolutes, there's no invulnerable to anything. Just differing strengths of defenses that can be overcome. (though I wish invisibility were built differently, (ie just call it a -8 to Perception Images, -10 for no Fringe).

I think that's everything that I think is important. There are some flaws, but fixable ones.

[wolfrunswithfox]

As a relative newcomer to the system (with a lot of experience with others), the thing that makes Hero stand out to me is the flexibility of its powers system.  That changes the way players approach character creation; in other systems you need to either modify your concept to fit the mechanics or risk having a mismatch between how the character is modelled and how you visualized them, but in Hero you can come up with an idea and be reasonably confident that the system will let you build it in a recognizable form (even if it's off-the-wall).  Even GURPS, which specifically tries to be flexible and permissive in character creation, falls far short of Hero in this regard.