What makes Hero System, Hero System?

[assault]

Four.

In Hero System, ideally, you get what you pay for and pay for what you get. (This idea can be taken to unhealthy extremes - not everything need be accounted for with points - but it's pretty fundamental.)

 

I've been scratching around the borders of this recently.

 

If a car is a zero point "Everyman" perk, putting Bat-stickers on the side doesn't change that.

 

If a car is only used as a plot device to get a PC to where the action is, should she/he have to pay points for it? In this case, it's as much a convenience for the GM as it is an asset for the PC.

 

If a car is really only a plot device, does it actually matter if it is described as being an AwesomeMobile, with capabilities far beyond a normal zero point car?

 

And so on... it's easy to justify giving a superheroic level character a massive quantity of zero point stuff, without actually unbalancing the game.

[assault]

And so on... it's easy to justify giving a superheroic level character a massive quantity of zero point stuff, without actually unbalancing the game.

 

I really should write this up in more detail. It's part of a larger "nuts to granularity" thought experiment though.

[Christopher R Taylor]

If a car is a zero point "Everyman" perk, putting Bat-stickers on the side doesn't change that.

 

 

Yeah unless it does something special, like fly and go underwater, has guns, is bulletproof, or something... its just a car.  Maybe 1 point to make it impossible to connect to the superhero and recognized or something.

[assault]

"Does Bruce Wayne know you’re driving his car?"

[assault]

Actually, I have been thinking about going into "better than an ordinary car" territory, on the grounds that a plot device is worth 0 points regardless of how fancy it is.

 

GM: "Doctor Evil's secret base is in Tierra Del Fuego! How does your character get there?"

 

Player: "It sounds like a job for the AwesomePlane!"

 

Naturally, if the GM chooses, Doctor Evil's Radar will detect the AwesomePlane (despite it's Stealth technology!) and fire a missile at it. The GM giveth, and the GM taketh away.

 

The whole point here is that the PC gets to Doctor Evil's base without the GM having to locate it in the suburbs of Campaign City or work to explain how the PC gets to Tierra Del Fuego.

 

That is, it's a plot device. An asset for the GM as much as the PC.

[assault]

I should however, talk about my ideas in a different thread, rather than continue to derail this one.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Non-Transparent Balancing.

 

 

This is a big thing for me, because it lets me codify how things fit together.  There are some rare exceptions but almost always you can get a finger on how the power or item compares to others.  D&D you have Create Light and Magic Missile in the same "spell level" or Cure Light wounds and Sanctuary.  Hero shows the way these things don't work out when just the GM or game designer insists they do in other games.

[Tholomyes]

For me, it's about Dramatic Realism, and the flexibility that Hero's point buy provides. GURPS, while similar, in many ways, to HERO, cleaves too much towards it's own vision of "realism" for my tastes (for example, Neuroscience is priced highly, not because it's an important skill, but because "in real life" it's a hard skill to learn). HERO, however, recognizes that it's probably not even as useful to your average adventurer as standard First Aid. So Neuroscience would be a Science skill, with the pricing of 2/1, while Paramedics is priced 3/2. If someone wants to do a "realistic" people game (or any other genre conventions, since in many ways "real life" is a genre as far as RPGs go), that's up to the GM and Players, but as far as characters go, things are priced based on their value to a character. The fact that HERO blatantly states that it's not intended to model reality, but instead to model the reality that exists in fiction, means that threads like one might find on D&D forums, for just how many arrows an archer can actually fire in 6 seconds, (and whether that number is even accurate because of the need to put sufficient power and aim into each shot) don't really matter with HERO. The question instead is "Could Legolas [or insert whichever other fantasy archer here] fire X arrows in 12 seconds" and I like that, especially because often times the rules reinforce these genre points fairly well (one of my favorite aspects of the way rules interact with Genre is that in Superheroic games, Stun is more important than Body, whereas in Heroic Games, the opposite is usually true. As a result, the fact that Superheroic games tend to have higher speeds makes sense from both a narrative and mechanical aspect, since higher speed means fewer recoveries per action, which means a greater emphasis on Stun over Body).

 

Additionally, the flexability aspect cannot be understated. While many point buy games can be quite flexible, none have matched HERO in my eyes. I've played plenty of Mutants and Masterminds, which is a fine system on its own, and it's plain to see just based on the number of unofficial character builds on their forums, that it is a very flexible system in its own right, but it is still head and shoulders behind HERO in system flexibility.

 

As an honorable mention, the mathematical effectiveness of the mechanics is really quite great. Perhaps it's taken for granted how often systems' mechanics are either inelegant, scale horribly, or are essentially a treadmill of ever increasing numbers, where the only thing different between level 1 and level 11 are the 10s digits of your skill bonus and the DC of the check. It's an Honorable mention, because HERO is by no means the only or best system to do the system math well and elegantly, but it does it better than most.

[Greywind]

The COM stat, figured characteristics and...

[Christopher]

I am of the opposite opinion here. I like Hero's skill range better than most other games Inhave encountered. I have zero issue with the lack of granularity. I feel that two characters of a similar skill level should perform similarly. Hero does this. It only takes a couple of poijts difference for the contest to skew obviously in the favor of the greater skilled individual....as it should. Thus, it only takes a few points to make a huge difference. A +1 in Hero (GURPS as well) is a significant bonus, unlike in most d20 based task resolution systems.

It can become fully fleshed out, if you manage the randomness properly. Look at this extra credits episode:

Hero System skill resolution suffers from the "any single given roll" problem.

 

Shadowrun does a better job of managing randomness, by throwing much more dice. But at the cost of making the skill system much more complex.

In hero we could manage it too, if we used something like Social Combat Mechanics. Or extended tests. Simply mechanics where a single roll does not define success. Instead a lot of rolls do.

 

I've been scratching around the borders of this recently.

 

If a car is a zero point "Everyman" perk, putting Bat-stickers on the side doesn't change that.

 

If a car is only used as a plot device to get a PC to where the action is, should she/he have to pay points for it? In this case, it's as much a convenience for the GM as it is an asset for the PC.

 

If a car is really only a plot device, does it actually matter if it is described as being an AwesomeMobile, with capabilities far beyond a normal zero point car?

 

And so on... it's easy to justify giving a superheroic level character a massive quantity of zero point stuff, without actually unbalancing the game.

 

 

Actually, I have been thinking about going into "better than an ordinary car" territory, on the grounds that a plot device is worth 0 points regardless of how fancy it is.

 

GM: "Doctor Evil's secret base is in Tierra Del Fuego! How does your character get there?"

 

Player: "It sounds like a job for the AwesomePlane!"

 

Naturally, if the GM chooses, Doctor Evil's Radar will detect the AwesomePlane (despite it's Stealth technology!) and fire a missile at it. The GM giveth, and the GM taketh away.

 

The whole point here is that the PC gets to Doctor Evil's base without the GM having to locate it in the suburbs of Campaign City or work to explain how the PC gets to Tierra Del Fuego.

 

That is, it's a plot device. An asset for the GM as much as the PC.

I always found those "cost no points" things had one clear downside:

The GM can just disable or abuse them as plot devices at any given time.

Mobile Phones might cost 0 point, but wich Criminal would not disable Phones as one of thier first actions?

The 0 point car might have been hit by random debris/energy or bisected by the enemy forcefield dome around the city. Or it is just not starting,

 

You might not have paid points for it, but in turn it also is not reliable.

[Ninja-Bear]

Christopher in DC: TAS, Deduction is shown how it should be used as how depending on success you get more information BUT you don't automatically solve the crime.

[Ninja-Bear]

Greatest strength is its flexibilty. Its greatest weakness is its fkexibility.

[Ninja-Bear]

Also if we are honest with ourselves, reasoning from effect can be a pain too. Im finally getting the hang of it myself.

[zslane]

I always found those "cost no points" things had one clear downside:

The GM can just disable or abuse them as plot devices at any given time.

 

If you have a GM abusing anything in the game, you have a bigger problem on your hands that no system can solve.

 

The corollary to this is that there are a lot of problems that emerge from the game that aren't system problems, but player problems which lazy GMs expect the system to solve for them. The inability of the system to solve a GM/player problem isn't a "downside", in my view.

[IndianaJoe3]

What are the essential qualities, as you see them, of Hero System?

 

And, what makes Hero System unique?

 

Others have listed these, but here's my reasoning.

• "Build from effect" - Create the effect you want, not what the designers gave you. Want your character to have a Hand-Cranked Runcible Projector? Figure out what it does and build it your way.
• "System transparency" - There's no, "system behind the system" that you have to figure out - it's all visible.
• "BODY/STUN differentiation" - Lethal and non-lethal damage are tracked separately.
• "the Speed Chart" - No more rolling for initiative!
• Complications" - Characters are connected to the world the GM creates.

[Scott Baker]

That is, it's a plot device. An asset for the GM as much as the PC.

 

 

I always found those "cost no points" things had one clear downside:

The GM can just disable or abuse them as plot devices at any given time.

@Christopher: What's your point? That you agree with Assault? That you agree with the rules (and all the advice Steve and others have given over the years)?

[Christopher]

Greatest strength is its flexibilty. Its greatest weakness is its fkexibility.

That can be said about anything

The greatest strenght is always the greatest weakness, because it is archieved at the cost of other strenghts.

 

If you have a GM abusing anything in the game, you have a bigger problem on your hands that no system can solve.

I think a minor cultural disconnect happened. In germany so few bad things happen directly to us, we kind of started using words with negative conotations a lot more casually.

Kinda how everyone talks about "Fatal" mistakes if nobody actually died. Or even got hurt.

Or how 'literally' started to mean 'figuratively'.

 

@Christopher: What's your point? That you agree with Assault? That you agree with the rules (and all the advice Steve and others have given over the years)?

Yes, I agree.

But I also find that the "What not to spend points on" rule on 6E1 31 might be forgotten too often.

Wich might be mostly because the downside is somewhat hidden in the example and page 32's "Paying for Equipment" section.

Both parts deserve mention whereever I see them fit.

[Spence]

Greatest strength is its flexibilty. Its greatest weakness is its fkexibility.

 

Yep,  you hit the nail on the head with that one

 

If you have a GM abusing anything in the game, you have a bigger problem on your hands that no system can solve.

 

The corollary to this is that there are a lot of problems that emerge from the game that aren't system problems, but player problems which lazy GMs expect the system to solve for them. The inability of the system to solve a GM/player problem isn't a "downside", in my view.

 

I think this is one of the greater truths.  And I also think that far too much emphasis is placed on the GM and too little on the players.  

 

I do think that Hero System is more prone to abuses by both though.  While I am sure some are done intentionally by twits, I do believe the the majority is caused by simple inexperience with the system.  There are very few systems of any description that even approach Hero in freedom to do anything and many people will unconsciously assume that the system itself will balance things out.   A 200 point 1950's Noir Gumshoe Detective Heroic level doesn't stand a chance against in combat against a 200 point Super Agent.  But then they are not supposed to interact in the same game world, the Detective's points would be spent differently and the AP limits would be different.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Honestly, figured characteristics made Hero for me, but I'm willing to work without them.  It was just one of the big selling points when I learned about the game, it just made sense.

[Ninja-Bear]

If you have a GM abusing anything in the game, you have a bigger problem on your hands that no system can solve.

 

The corollary to this is that there are a lot of problems that emerge from the game that aren't system problems, but player problems which lazy GMs expect the system to solve for them. The inability of the system to solve a GM/player problem isn't a "downside", in my view.

It seems to me that Hero (and this could be more of game culture), that players know about how much the game works as the GM. Other systems, the GM knows more than the players do.

[Ninja-Bear]

I lnow its ymmv but I do like initiatives. Having a fixed Dex where you are always going after a villain is no fun.

[ghost-angel]

There are a lot of things unique to Hero (like the Speed mechanic);

 

But to me the essential quality that is the foundation of the System, the defining point, is Reasoning From Effect. Generic constructs around which you wrap a Special Effect to build towards, and that the same construct can represent any number of visual storytelling ideas, is the true core.

 

And the key to its flexibility & frustration.

[zslane]

I lnow its ymmv but I do like initiatives. Having a fixed Dex where you are always going after a villain is no fun.

In strategy games--and let's be frank, Hero System combat is essentially a wargame at heart--there is this concept called tempo. In chess, for instance, white begins with the initiative. As long as white continues to make moves that black must respond to, white maintains the initiative. But if white makes a weak move and black responds with a strong move that white must respond to, then the initiative has shifted to black.

 

In Champions, the villain with the higher DEX starts with the initiative. But if said villain makes a weak move or misses with his attack, then the initiative has potentially shifted to you because now you are in a position to do something that puts the villain on the defensive, forcing him to make decisions based on what you do rather than the other way around.

 

I prefer the Speed Chart over initiative rolls because it allows me to plan a number of moves ahead like I would in a more abstract strategy game. Yet there are still opportunities for those plans to be dashed due to the effective re-ordering of actions through mechanics like Held Actions and being Stunned. The non-determinism that dice provide still plays a role (roll?), but only indirectly, which makes tempo and initiative based more on the choices we make than the results of a single die roll.

[Tholomyes]

In strategy games--and let's be frank, Hero System combat is essentially a wargame at heart--there is this concept called tempo. In chess, for instance, white begins with the initiative. As long as white continues to make moves that black must respond to, white maintains the initiative. But if white makes a weak move and black responds with a strong move that white must respond to, then the initiative has shifted to black.

 

In Champions, the villain with the higher DEX starts with the initiative. But if said villain makes a weak move or misses with his attack, then the initiative has potentially shifted to you because now you are in a position to do something that puts the villain on the defensive, forcing him to make decisions based on what you do rather than the other way around.

 

I prefer the Speed Chart over initiative rolls because it allows me to plan a number of moves ahead like I would in a more abstract strategy game. Yet there are still opportunities for those plans to be dashed due to the effective re-ordering of actions through mechanics like Held Actions and being Stunned. The non-determinism that dice provide still plays a role (roll?), but only indirectly, which makes tempo and initiative based more on the choices we make than the results of a single die roll.

 

While I don't dislike the way HERO handles initiative (I'd consider myself neutral) having an initiative roll, something as simple as make a DEX roll and go in order of how much you succeed/fail by (with tiebreaks being done by dex score, or possibly INT or EGO, or something), does not change the concept of Tempo, as the order of the characters in the initiative list, barring things like blocked attacks, or the like, doesn't really change from round to round. The addition of a Roll only changes the variability of the turn order from fight to fight; it is no more about "choices" if there is a die roll or not (except perhaps the choice to spend points on DEX). It's essentially the same as two chess players flipping a coin before each game to decide who plays White and who plays Black.

 

In fact, I'd argue that the existence of the Speed Chart (as well as, more indirectly, any disparity between the total number of Hero and Villain actions per turn) blurs the Tempo parallel a bit. In chess, Black gets as many moves as White, but must react to White's moves unless White makes a mistake and gives Initiative to Black. In Hero system, the DEX 10, SPD 7 Speedster might start off without initiative, vs the Dex 18 SPD 4 Brick, but since the speedster gets nearly twice as many actions, and will quickly gain initiative. Unless the Brick can Stun (or in certain phases, Block) the Speedster, the speedster will retain that initiative, and even if they lose it, they will regain it fairly quickly.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The thing is, going first isn't necessarily an advantage.  Often, going after others allows you to better react to their moves.  With things like delayed phase, delaying, aborted phases, blocks, and so on combat ends up a lot more dynamic than it might seem with rigid speed and DEX numbers.