Cheese move?

[GCMorris]

Teleporting ppl into the sky and dropping them?

[bigdamnhero]

Depends on the genre. In a Champions game where people tend to have high defenses, half of them can fly, and the other half can catch falling people, not so bad. In a gritty low fantasy game? Total death by cheese. In fact that was the very first "broken power" we found when we started playing FH back in 3ed.

[Hyper-Man]

Just to do what Azazel did in X-Men: First Class is just a couple of Advantages on his own Teleportation Power combined with a non-combat Megascale scale move straight up.  The defense was grabbing him like Beast did which did not allow him to teleport away separately.

 

 

But to Teleport an opponent without moving yourself too would require UAA and would not normally allow for non-combat ranges so getting the required altitude would not be cheap.

 

HM

[Christopher]

Just to do what Azazel did in X-Men: First Class is just a couple of Advantages on his own Teleportation Power combined with a non-combat Megascale scale move straight up.  The defense was grabbing him like Beast did which did not allow him to teleport away separately.

 

 

But to Teleport an opponent without moving yourself too would require UAA and would not normally allow for non-combat ranges so getting the required altitude would not be cheap.

 

HM

You could maybe build that trick as a HKA with a certain amount of damage. He only ever used the "teleport up to let them drop" move agaisnt mooks/normals without any counter training. People that by design should be easy to dispatch, one way or the other.

 

Generally if the goal is to deal damage, you should buy a power that deals damage. if the itended effect only happens indirectly, your build is propably on the wrong track. "Teleporting up to drop them" is just the special effect (and maybe a limitation).

That is Heroes rule of building game effects, not special effects.

 

What has me most worried about this power is the ability to take enemies out of the fight with "a cheap trick". Something that is much cheaper then the attack you would needed to do so and without any reasonable defense.

 

Generally you can take somebody along while teleporting, even a unwilling target if you grab him. There are two special rules about teleportation that apply:

Teleportation has a weight limit indepedantly of your strenght. It defines what you can take along.

Megascale Teleportation puts you at NCM penalties for 2 phases before you move. So it is really not a combat move.

[GCMorris]

What about teleporting someone without grabbing them, like opening a portal under them?

[bigdamnhero]

What about teleporting someone without grabbing them, like opening a portal under them?

That's exactly the spell that broke my first FH game back in 1980-something. Again, it depends on the genre. In a Heroic game where Flight is rare and defenses are low, then teleporting someone 50' up is a remarkably effective way out of most of your problems. So yeah, pretty cheesy. There are ways to make it work, like giving the Character appropriate Psych Comps that keep them from abusing it. But potentially a game-breaker.

 

OTOH in a Champions game where characters are used to taking 12d6 Blasts anyway, falling 50m isn't such a big deal.

[Christopher]

What about teleporting someone without grabbing them, like opening a portal under them?

That is Teleport UAA.

And if you allow that in your game it is your own damn fault and you have to learn the hard way why it is a bad idea

Might not be the worst of the bad ideas to try out for a spell (you can always later disalow the power, refunding the points spend on it). Some Experiences only work if you gathered them yourself.

 

OTOH in a Champions game where characters are used to taking 12d6 Blasts anyway, falling 50m isn't such a big deal.

As I said, the damage does not really have me worried. That cheese would become obiously quickly.

The ability to teleport the enemy 50m sideways of the walkways/cliff or outside the building (when the enemy has neither flight nor the ability to come back), that has me really worried.

[GCMorris]

That is Teleport UAA.

And if you allow that in your game it is your own damn fault and you have to learn the hard way why it is a bad idea

Might not be the worst of the bad ideas to try out for a spell (you can always later disalow the power, refunding the points spend on it). Some Experiences only work if you gathered them yourself.

 

As I said, the damage does not really have me worried. That cheese would become obiously quickly.

The ability to teleport the enemy 50m sideways of the walkways/cliff or outside the building (when the enemy has neither flight nor the ability to come back), that has me really worried.

At the same time you posted your reply I thought about being teleported into the ocean with only 2" of swim movement... A nice BFR move. This one requires more thought.

[Christopher]

At the same time you posted your reply I thought about being teleported into the ocean with only 2" of swim movement... A nice BFR move. This one requires more thought.

6E2 162 (Powers and water):

"Teleportation with the Must Pass Trough

Intervening Space Limitation suffers the same

restrictions as Running when used underwater.

Other forms of Teleportation typically work at

full effect underwater, but characters and GMs

must keep two things in mind.

First, due to the

problems of perceiving underwater (see Perception

And Communication, above), characters may have

a much harder time perceiving the target Area.

Second, and more importantly, Teleporting

into an area flled with water constitutes “Tele

porting into a solid object,” requiring the char

acter to roll on the Teleportation Damage Table

as described on 6E2 162y. Tis may effectively

make Teleportation useless underwater for many

characters."

[GCMorris]

I'm still using 4e, haven't seen rules for that. I'll read more into it though. Im not sure that the player would think of that but if I can think of really bad ways to abuse the power I'm sure the player may think of of them as well.

[Duke Bushido]

I'd like to preface this by saying that, like most everyone else who has responded here, has always thought that this was horribly cheesy since the first time I ever had it presented at a table.

 

I'd also like to point out that at the same time, we might allow knock back to toss a person off a building, out of a plane, or over a cliff.  Or a brick character to punch or throw someone up in the air high enough that the fall will inflict major damage, possibly fatal damage.

 

Is the difference that the T-port build is easier or more likely to be used?

 

To be fair, any PCs that make a habit of offing NPCs or inflicting scads of damage willy-nilly are likely to become hoist by their own petard, at least in my games.  But as a once-in-a-blue-moon story or campaign ender, -- well, what's the difference?

[GCMorris]

Well, the odds are it won't do as much damage as being trampled by a The Juggernaut but it is hard to defend against. I found rules for it in the 4e book and it is expensive to build so if the player decides to use the power in this way it will seriously cut into her point total.

[Christopher]

I'd like to preface this by saying that, like most everyone else who has responded here, has always thought that this was horribly cheesy since the first time I ever had it presented at a table.

 

I'd also like to point out that at the same time, we might allow knock back to toss a person off a building, out of a plane, or over a cliff.  Or a brick character to punch or throw someone up in the air high enough that the fall will inflict major damage, possibly fatal damage.

 

Is the difference that the T-port build is easier or more likely to be used?

 

To be fair, any PCs that make a habit of offing NPCs or inflicting scads of damage willy-nilly are likely to become hoist by their own petard, at least in my games.  But as a once-in-a-blue-moon story or campaign ender, -- well, what's the difference?

A brick has dozens of ways to defend agaisnt knockback. Form KB defense, rolling with a punch, staying on the ground or even grabbing the ledge. The difficulty to knock him back is considered part of him being a brick.

None of those apply to Movement Powers, Useable as attack. That is why I do not like those builds - they plain go around any reasonable defense. That is thier very purpose of being. And among the first advices I read regarding this system in 6E was:

"Every attack should have a defense".

 

Well, the odds are it won't do as much damage as being trampled by a The Juggernaut but it is hard to defend against. I found rules for it in the 4e book and it is expensive to build so if the player decides to use the power in this way it will seriously cut into her point total.

You may have to prepare for two things:

One is that the player argues "the effect should not be taht expensive/is not as expensive in game system X". Point out that the point cost in Hero always reflects the relative power and that in hero the power is that usefull.

Second thing if you allow it, is that the players will work to get mileage out of it. Always reserve the right to retroactively remove it if it turns problematic for the stories you try to tell.

 

As I said, it is one of those things you may have to learn from own experience.

[Hugh Neilson]

A brick has dozens of ways to defend agaisnt knockback. Form KB defense, rolling with a punch, staying on the ground or even grabbing the ledge. The difficulty to knock him back is considered part of him being a brick.

Rolling with a punch increases Knockback IIRC. He can Brace, but that comes at the cost of halving his DCV, and provides no special protection against a Throw. Anyone who makes a DEX check could grab a ledge. 60 AP of Teleport UAA will allow casual repositioning of most opponents, but not all that much falling damage, compared to a 12 DC attack, especially, or UAA Flight to force a Move Through on a solid object - but then a DEX check to grab something and reduce velocity would be reasonable. I suspect the Brick will weather the Teleport better than, say, a 6d6 INT Drain.

[bigdamnhero]

To be fair, any PCs that make a habit of offing NPCs or inflicting scads of damage willy-nilly are likely to become hoist by their own petard, at least in my games.  But as a once-in-a-blue-moon story or campaign ender, -- well, what's the difference?

If the character has Psychological Complications like CvK or "Always Fights Fair" and you can trust the player not to abuse it, then you might be okay. But then that begs the question of what's the point of having such a power if you're never going to use it anyway?

 

Well, the odds are it won't do as much damage as being trampled by a The Juggernaut but it is hard to defend against.

Exactly. It's the lack of defense against it that makes Movement UAA so (potentially) unbalancing. Personally I generally only allow them as NPC powers because I trust myself not to use them sparingly and not abuse them. And even then, that's only in a supers game - in most heroic games they're right out

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its probably more lethal than a 4-color superhero campaign would want, but not cheesy.  The thing is, if they have teammates that will rescue them or have to use special devices like a one-shot grav parachute or something, that's a valid tactic to use.  If its just "I teleport the mugger 25 stories up and laugh as he is street pizza" then its just sadistic.

[GCMorris]

In 4e it states that it should have a couple of ways to defend against it (Usable Against Other) so it's not really much different from an NND attack but there's not much stopping someone from getting a 25d6 terminal velocity drop with a short range teleport off of a roof or plane.

[Duke Bushido]

To reiterate, I _don't_ like the build, and have shot it down a couple of times myself over the years.

 

But for the purposes of discussion, I'd like to respond to Christopher's comments on bypassing reasonable defenses:

 

NND bypasses reasonable defenses, yet there are many, many builds featuring it.  Variable SFX is generally bought with the intention of gaining a leg-up against certain defenses or taking advantage of certain weaknesses-- weaknesses that effective reduce (or bypass all together) certain defenses.

 

So for the discussion of Teleport UAA, I'd like to offer this:

 

Defense:  T-Port (Not terribly common in our campaigns) Desolidification (uncommon, but less so than T-Port), Glding (common), Flight ( which is somewhere between oxygen and concrete in commonality for our campaigns).  

 

I don't know what the 6e rules are for UAA, but two uncommons, one common, and one very common exceed the requirements for NND.

 

Honestly, it might be possible to carry it even further: T-Port without Armor Piercing can't (so far as any rules I own) get through Hardened barriers.  Perhaps a case could be made that the character (without T-Port AP) can't use this power on anyone with a Hardened Defense?  That's another common for our group.

 

Is there a range for this attack?  If it's not bought with Range (increasing the cost), then the player must touch the target, which opens up more possible defenses:

 

Damage Shield (uncommon in three groups I play in, common in the fourth).  Does it require a Grab?  An STR v STR?  Both?

 

 

Again, the build sets every nerve on fire and rings every GM alarm I have-- and this is from a guy who can't understand why stop signs and magnifying glasses exist on anything that's not T-form or EDM-- and I flat don't allow it.

 

 

But when you stack it up as a means to deliver Damage X versus the cost invested, it really doesn't come off too terribly out of line with another build.   Honestly, it would likely be cheaper to buy a TK slam of some sort to do the same thing.

 

By 6e, how hard would a character have to fall to get serious damage?  And yes; I mean player characters.  Every day people shouldn't be counted for this because every day people can be eliminated at range with a fairly inexpensive EB.  Everyday people are easy to kill with _anything_, making them a bad example to discuss how damaging a build should be.

 

Getting back on track-- how far would a character have to fall?  What would it cost to Teleport him that high?  How out of scope is that cost / damage ratio to any other way to eliminate a player character?

 

 

Just wondering.  If it costs ten times as much as an appropriate Killing Attack, I'm still not going to allow it.   Perhaps it's the visuals of the damage being delivered; I don't know.  But I don't like it.

 

I am still curious, though.
 

[Christopher R Taylor]

You can look at the damage chart and then see how far the teleport has to be to get him there.  Then with the +1 to make it an attack in 4th edition, plus any weight increase (the teleport only would allow them to port a 100kg target), its not going to be super cheap.  I mean a 60 active point port attack would be at most 30" of teleport which isn't a huge amount of damage unless you port them to the side off the grand canyon or something.

[bigdamnhero]

Good points Duke Bushido. The +1 for UAA is in line with +1 for NND. But most NND attacks don't have the potential to be one-shot-one-kill attacks like Teleport UAA has the potential to be.

[bigdamnhero]

OK, let's do the math. 60 AP can get you:

 

Energy Blast 6d6 NND   or   Teleport 15" UAA

 

Falling 15" (or 30m) translates to hitting the ground at a velocity of 10" (or 20m) for 10d6 damage. Significantly more than the 6d6 NND Blast, but the character does get at least some of their defenses against the falling damage. So probably not completely unbalancing in a supers game...until you start using the power to bampf people outside the window on the 50th floor or outside a plane at 20,000'. But again, taking advantage of the environment to add damage is hardly unique to this power.

[Duke Bushido]

And with the NND, you can hit them from a distance.  Unless the cost on T-port has changed, I think that build is going to require you to lay hands on your opponent.

[Hugh Neilson]

OK, let's do the math. 60 AP can get you:

 

Energy Blast 6d6 NND   or   Teleport 15" UAA

 

Falling 15" (or 30m) translates to hitting the ground at a velocity of 10" (or 20m) for 10d6 damage. Significantly more than the 6d6 NND Blast, but the character does get at least some of their defenses against the falling damage. So probably not completely unbalancing in a supers game...until you start using the power to bampf people outside the window on the 50th floor or outside a plane at 20,000'. But again, taking advantage of the environment to add damage is hardly unique to this power.

At 60 AP, you could also have had a 12d6 Blast, which will do 7 STUN on average more than the fall, have range and damage flying opponents. The Teleport is certainly more versatile, but the "teleport straight up" maneuver is hardly a game-ender.

[Christopher]

To reiterate, I _don't_ like the build, and have shot it down a couple of times myself over the years.

 

But for the purposes of discussion, I'd like to respond to Christopher's comments on bypassing reasonable defenses:

 

NND bypasses reasonable defenses, yet there are many, many builds featuring it.  Variable SFX is generally bought with the intention of gaining a leg-up against certain defenses or taking advantage of certain weaknesses-- weaknesses that effective reduce (or bypass all together) certain defenses.

NND deals damage (mostly STUN, Drain or Transform Body).

The power is still capped and well balanced and if anything is less likely to take out the enemy in one go the more you advantage it. It does not change that your CON is still used to prevent being stunned or that the enemy has to work off all your STUN. it get#s around your defenses, not your Stun or Con total.

Even if you are stunned/knocke out, you can still recover.

 

5" TP UAA can port you off the roof.

And if your character can not fly or jump hell-a high, he would not come back for the rest of the fight. The damage the character takes does not mater, he is out of the fight for good simply by distance.

Even then falling down and jumping back up might take more then one phase to complete.

 

NND in 6E was turned a lot more granular/mixed with AVAD (it was rolled into AVAD, but is still often mentioned like a seperate advantage in builds).

Rather then one flat value it now has a table based on the Source Defense and the Target Defense "Commonality"*. AVAD can actually become a limitation if you move to a more common defense (like Drain or Transform to PD rather then Power Defense). And NND always shifts it about one comonality level into Limitation region.

AVAD, NND (normal PD) is a -1.5 on Transform or Drain (but that might undervalue it, actually; everyone has some PD naturally)

Moving a Mental Defense, Power Defense or Sight/Hearing Flash attacks to any NND is actually a +/- 0 now (+1/2 for the new rarer Defense, -1/2 for being NND).

 

*There are example values given, but as usual the exact values depend on the campaign.

[Tom Cowan]

so MegaScale knockback (1m = 1 km; Knockback; +1), Cannot alter scale (-1/4) is not cheese?  LOL