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Help me create some alternate rules for streamlining HERO


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Hi there! I would like your help in coming up with some alternate/streamlined rules for HERO. While I don't necessarily want to strip away everything and make it into a different game, I would like to see what options we can come up with that won't require rewriting vast chunks of the system. Also, this stuff is pretty much all subjective. I'm not really interested in a debate over the necessity or lack thereof here; mostly I want to see what options are doable, and then go from there.

 

Roll-Under to Roll-Over

Purely an aesthetic thing, but I really dislike roll-under. I especially dislike it when mixed in the same game (possibly in the same turn, even), such as rolling low to hit and then rolling high for damage. I would like to convert all target number rolls to roll-over, but preferably without breaking anything. Is this possible? If so, how do we do it?

 

SPD Chart = RIP Chart

I don't much care for the Speed Chart and multiple actions per turn. I'd prefer to simplify it down to a single round's worth of actions per turn, without necessarily having to lose Post-12 Recovery, or at least having Recovery still be a thing.

 

Related: I'd also like to make this easier when figuring out movement rates in more common/intuitive values. For me, MPH (even KPH) is a little easier to grok than "moves 2500m in a half-phase action." Or at the least, the "move 2500m as a move action" thing would be easier if I didn't also have to consider each segment in a turn. Since a lot of the games I'd like to use HERO for would involve trying to figure movement stuff like this, I'd like to find a way to make this much simpler.

 

Examples of Play and of Character Builds

I might need some help on specific builds or examples of play in action, to get a better feel for how things work, if anyone would be up for that. If so, I will come up with a few things and list them here. For now, I want to start with the above two items.

 

Oh, I guess one thing that comes to mind is adding DCs, especially with HKAs involved and such. Can someone break down a few different examples of how it would work if a character used an HKA, and what would happen if that character picked up, say, a broken bottle, a staff, or a boulder?

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I'd start with some google searches of the Hero Forums. A lot of those types of topics have been covered quite thoroughly, as recently as this year. 

 

Roll under 11 can be swapped for roll over 10 pretty easily until you get to more than 7 in bonus (when the "or less" would hit 18). It just gets a bit harder in my head to start adding penalties, but ymmv. As long as you never plan on publishing it and can get your players to swap with you or find folks who have never played Hero you will probably be fine.

 

- E

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You are for sure not alone in liking roll high.  As eepjr24 mentioned, a Google search can show you threads on how to do it, ranging from the beginning of the current incarnation of the forums up to this year.  

 

As far as eliminating the SPD chart, some people set all SPD values at a single value, usually 4, with no problems.  

 

As far as adding DCs, that could be a book in itself.  Usually an improvised weapon like a broken bottle would convert the character's STR damage straight into killing, possibly with a minor bonus or penalty to damage depending on what the weapon is.  For HKA specifically, there's not much a character can do besides push their STR.  For normal damage, an improvised weapon might add 1-3d6 normal damage, but would do a maximum total DC equal to the object's DEF + BODY.  

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There is a section in Combat that described exactly how Added Damage works, I would suggest reading it with a highly critical eye. One of the donwsides of Champions Complete being so condensed is that many important rules are only one or two sentences in an otherwise boring chapter.

 

The long-ish version however is that an "Added DC" regardless of its source (such as strength adding to an HKA) is equal to +5 active points to the "base power" (strength is a power too) it is being added to. If the base power (Strength, Blast, HKA, what have you) doesn't have advantages, everything is fairly simple; +5 APs = +1d6 Normal Damage and +15 APs = +1d6 of Killing Damage. If the base power does have an advantage things get complicated; but here is the gist. 

When adding DCs to an attack power with advantages, you still have to "pay for" those advantages out of total number of active points added to it. There is a list of what advantages generally have to be "paid for" in this manner. So if you have a Normal Damage power with +1 in advantages, than you need to add +10 APs to gain +1d6 Normal Damage (with that advantage). If you have a Killing Damage power with +1 in advantages, you need to add +30 APs to gain +1d6 Killing Damage (with that advantage). If the Normal Damage power only has +1/4 in Advantages, it needs to gain 6.25 APs to gain +1d6 Normal Damage (with that advantage). If a Killing Damage power only has +1/2 in advantages, it needs to gain 22.5 APs APs to gain +1d6 of Killing Damage.

 

For most weapons, the you are using Strength to add APs to the weapon as the Base Power, meaning those APs values listed above equate 1 to 1 with the Strength value needed to add one actual die of damage to the Normal or Killing damage of the weapon. When you use Combat Levels or Martial Arts to add "DCs" it is always in +5 APs increments as I described above, meaning when adding to a power with advantages it takes more "Added DCs" to gain actual dice of damage, and there will almost always be some wasted APs.

 

In terms of game constructs, most "Equipment" is built with limitations that changes these base rules somewhat, see the Real Weapon and STR Minimum modifiers for exact details. The gist of them is that mundane weapons require a certain amount of strength to use, and only convert the excess to extra damage up to a certain point, after which you risk damaging or destroying the weapon.

 

Improvised Weapons usually don't have or add any base damage to the attack themselves. The reason to use them is usually to convert Normal Damage into Killing Damage, hit your target from further away (throwing cars to hit flying enemies), or force the object to absorb damage the maneuver would have done to you (in the case of Move-By and Move-Through).

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In terms of understanding Speed versus "Movement Speed" I like to start by looking at Velocity Per Turn (which you calculate by multilying the value of their Movement power in meters by their Speed), then by minute (by multiplying by 5), then by hour (by multiplying by 60). How fast a character moves in a single phase is largely irrelevant unless you need to pull off a Velocity Based maneuver. It is nice to think about how long their phases are however, although it happens such on paper, not everything actually happens in the single second One Segment represents. A character with a SPD of 2 has a phase 6 seconds long (just like DnD/Pathfinder), a character with a SPD of 3 has one 4 seconds long, and one with a SPD of 6 has one only 2 seconds long. 2 seconds isn't a lot of time for a villain to monologue inbetween Blasts.

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Hi there! I would like your help in coming up with some alternate/streamlined rules for HERO. While I don't necessarily want to strip away everything and make it into a different game, I would like to see what options we can come up with that won't require rewriting vast chunks of the system. Also, this stuff is pretty much all subjective. I'm not really interested in a debate over the necessity or lack thereof here; mostly I want to see what options are doable, and then go from there.

 

Roll-Under to Roll-Over

Purely an aesthetic thing, but I really dislike roll-under. I especially dislike it when mixed in the same game (possibly in the same turn, even), such as rolling low to hit and then rolling high for damage. I would like to convert all target number rolls to roll-over, but preferably without breaking anything. Is this possible? If so, how do we do it?

 

This is pretty easy.  Just a matter of flipping things over.

 

Currently you need to roll equal to or under 11+OCV-DCV.  If OCV = DCV then you have a 62.5% chance to hit.

 

To maintain that chance to hit you need, if OCV = DCV, to roll 10 or over.

 

In this case you need to remember that you add levels to OCV or DCV to keep the effects right.

 

 

SPD Chart = RIP Chart

I don't much care for the Speed Chart and multiple actions per turn. I'd prefer to simplify it down to a single round's worth of actions per turn, without necessarily having to lose Post-12 Recovery, or at least having Recovery still be a thing.

 

Related: I'd also like to make this easier when figuring out movement rates in more common/intuitive values. For me, MPH (even KPH) is a little easier to grok than "moves 2500m in a half-phase action." Or at the least, the "move 2500m as a move action" thing would be easier if I didn't also have to consider each segment in a turn. Since a lot of the games I'd like to use HERO for would involve trying to figure movement stuff like this, I'd like to find a way to make this much simpler.

 

It is up to you here too.  You can remove SPD from the game.  What you need to decide is how many actions you want people to have before they get a recovery.  Effectively you are then setting the SPD of the game.  So if you decide the players will get 4 actions before a recovery then the speed of the game is 4.  It also means that all of the opponents of the heroes will have SPD 4 too (though you can highlight a dangerous opponent by giving them bonus actions).

 

With a spd 4 game is means that 2500m in a half phase action means 2500m in 1.5s (which equals 6,000,000m per hour)  pretty fast!  :-)

 

In a fixed SPD game though, it means that if you have 20m movement that you can move that distance as your full action.  If you want to do other things during your action then you move half that (or less) and do other stuff (like attacking).

 

However, it is easier to think about when everyone is moving at the same time.

 

Examples of Play and of Character Builds

I might need some help on specific builds or examples of play in action, to get a better feel for how things work, if anyone would be up for that. If so, I will come up with a few things and list them here. For now, I want to start with the above two items.

 

Oh, I guess one thing that comes to mind is adding DCs, especially with HKAs involved and such. Can someone break down a few different examples of how it would work if a character used an HKA, and what would happen if that character picked up, say, a broken bottle, a staff, or a boulder?

I think that the best advice was to think in terms of Active Points.  You also want to think how much impact you want from improvised weapons.  If you allow them to add significant damage from stuff they pick up, the players will always be looking to find that kind of bonus damage.  If you dont then they will only do so when it desperate.

 

An easy idea is to change the nature of the attack based on the weapon.  As someone said earlier, allow the use of a broken bottle to change normal damage to killing (remembering to apply the damage to the weapon too if you want that realism AND complexity).  You could allow rigid items to provide a level of penetrating or ranged or armour piercing...

 

I guess a lot of what you want to do might depend on the genre of campaign you plan on running.  

 

What you playing?  Superheroes?  Super-Agents?  Fantasy? Sci-Fi??

 

Doc

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But of course, in HERO games, especially Champions games, a monologue takes no time.  They are fun and we want to let them get that dialogue in there.  :-)

 

Speaking in HERO (or Pathfinder) doesn't require an Action, so you can do other things at the same time, but it still takes time to convey information.

I bust out a stopwatch when my I or my players want to speak during combat. If they want to say or listen to a monologue they might end up losing a few actions (due to the rules for holding actions). Because I found if I don't they will try to hold strategy meetings during combat. Which is neither cinematically appropriate, nor good roleplaying. That being said, I also hold to the genre convention regarding speaking that sentient enemies will almost always wait to hear what you have to say. With the rational that enemies don't think in terms of things like "economy of action" during combat like power gamers do. They generally won't interrupt an opponent, because they wouldn't want to be interrupted themselves.

I've found this practice only leads to a little frustration as players first get used to it. Afterwards it results in players thinking critically about what they say during combat (my wife says combat speech is a Skill), and can lead to a lot of dramatic tension as they hold action (or delay/ready in pathfinder) to wait for an enemies to have a chance to respond to what they've said.

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Are there any quirks in the math to be wary of?

 

As far as adding DCs, what about picking up a knife, a sword, a chainsword (why not)? The book (Champions Complete is what I'm reading) leaves me sort of confused on how it works, especially when Advantages are involved.

 

If it's an actual weapon, then it does its base damage.  Adding to that... that's where you could write a book.   :)  If there are no Advantages on it, you can add +1 DC per 5 STR.  If it has a STR Minimum, it's +1 DC per 5 STR above the minimum.  If there are Advantages, you pro-rate them into the added STR, essentially reducing the amount of DCs your STR adds.  

 

Up until 6e, you could only increase an HKA weapon to double its base damage as a hard and fast rule.  In 6e that's still strongly recommended but up to the GM.

 

Edited to add:  I was on my phone earlier.  Pro-rating STR added to attacks definitely has some math quirks, especially when taking Advantages into account.  Essentially you would treat STR as added Active Points, taking into account the Advantages that modify Damage Classes, which include Armor Piercing but the rest of which I don't know off the top of my head.  But, for instance, as Armor Piercing is a +1/4 Advantage in 6e, it would take 6.25 points (5 * 1.25) of STR to add +1 DC to an Armor Piercing melee weapon.  As of 5th edition the rules had more or less accreted from five editions plus the pre-4th edition standalone genre-based games (Fantasy Hero, Danger International/Espionage, Justice Inc., Robot Warriors, Star Hero).  So there were a lot of quirks in them.  In 6e they were meant to be somewhat simplified but I'm not sure how well that goal was met.

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Speaking in HERO (or Pathfinder) doesn't require an Action, so you can do other things at the same time, but it still takes time to convey information.

I bust out a stopwatch when my I or my players want to speak during combat. If they want to say or listen to a monologue they might end up losing a few actions (due to the rules for holding actions). Because I found if I don't they will try to hold strategy meetings during combat. Which is neither cinematically appropriate, nor good roleplaying. That being said, I also hold to the genre convention regarding speaking that sentient enemies will almost always wait to hear what you have to say. With the rational that enemies don't think in terms of things like "economy of action" during combat like power gamers do. They generally won't interrupt an opponent, because they wouldn't want to be interrupted themselves.

I've found this practice only leads to a little frustration as players first get used to it. Afterwards it results in players thinking critically about what they say during combat (my wife says combat speech is a Skill), and can lead to a lot of dramatic tension as they hold action (or delay/ready in pathfinder) to wait for an enemies to have a chance to respond to what they've said.

 

In the rules there are things which officially take no time.  Examples are "making a PRE attack, making a soliloquy, or making a roll at the GM's request".

 

I dont think this covers conversation, even for the most creative of players.  However, if the villain stands up to crow about his role in the players downfall, none of them get the chance to fire a cheeky energy blast at his mouth....it takes no time...

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Improvised Weapons usually don't have or add any base damage to the attack themselves. The reason to use them is usually to convert Normal Damage into Killing Damage, hit your target from further away (throwing cars to hit flying enemies), or force the object to absorb damage the maneuver would have done to you (in the case of Move-By and Move-Through).

 

 

There's a rule hidden on 6E2 173 and CC 146.  If the PD + BODY of an improvised weapon is greater than the STR dice of the character wielding it, the attack deals an extra +1d6 for every 2 full points the PD + BODY exceeds the STR dice, to a maximum of double damage.

 

A normal human (STR 10, 2d6 damage) hitting someone with a light wooden chair (3 PD, 3 BODY) would deal 4d6 damage.  The chair would also take the same damage every time it was used as a weapon, so the bonus would gradually fade and then go away completely as it broke.

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Why not just find a set of rules you like better and play that instead?

 

Ooh!  A bit unfriendly Christopher...

 

I can understand wanting the power of HERO to set and design my own game but might want to use the toolkit to deliver a more streamlined game.

 

I think we need to accommodate everyone's playstyle, that's the core attraction of HERO in my opinion.  Everyone can come and adapt it to what they want...

 

 

Doc

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In the rules there are things which officially take no time.  Examples are "making a PRE attack, making a soliloquy, or making a roll at the GM's request".

 

I dont think this covers conversation, even for the most creative of players.  However, if the villain stands up to crow about his role in the players downfall, none of them get the chance to fire a cheeky energy blast at his mouth....it takes no time...

 

I'll just leave this right here.  It even calls out HERO System!  (Warning: TV Tropes link. Major time sink if you're not careful...)  

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Related: I'd also like to make this easier when figuring out movement rates in more common/intuitive values. For me, MPH (even KPH) is a little easier to grok than "moves 2500m in a half-phase action." Or at the least, the "move 2500m as a move action" thing would be easier if I didn't also have to consider each segment in a turn. Since a lot of the games I'd like to use HERO for would involve trying to figure movement stuff like this, I'd like to find a way to make this much simpler.

 

Some quick conversions:  

 

Meters/Turn * .1875 = MPH

 

Meters/Turn * .3 = KPH

 

This is about the closest you can get.  Phased movement doesn't really lend itself to spot-determining a character's velocity in MPH or KPH, beyond converting as above.  If you settle on, for instance, SPD 4 for all characters, then that simplifies it somewhat:  

 

Meters * .75 = MPH

 

Meters * 1.2 = KPH

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Ooh!  A bit unfriendly Christopher

 

I didn't mean it to sound unfriendly, it just looks like he's looking for a game without some of Hero's more complicated mechanics and with different roll structures, and there are a lot of systems out there they might like better.  The problem with text is that there's no tone of voice, so you have to guess at what people intend. Probably its best to not presume malice without some sort of cause or indication?

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Why not just find a set of rules you like better and play that instead?

 

There's a lot of really great stuff to like about the HERO System.  Different strokes for different folks.  Some people love green peppers, and add them to everything.  Some people can't stand them, or have a bad reaction to them. so they leave them out of recipes that otherwise call for them.  

 

Some of the rules in the system are baked in as options to choose from: Hit Locations, Bleeding, Impairing Disabling, Knockback vs. Knockdown.  Lots of Hero gamers ignore END use, because of the bookkeeping; lots of others use roll-high for combat because it's easier to add numbers than subtract on the fly.  I don't see altering or ignoring the SPD Chart as being much different from that.  

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Examples of Play and of Character Builds

I might need some help on specific builds or examples of play in action, to get a better feel for how things work, if anyone would be up for that. If so, I will come up with a few things and list them here. For now, I want to start with the above two items.

 

A quick search leads to some podcasts that purport to be actual play of Hero: 

I haven't listened to any of them so can't speak to the quality, but I'm going to bet they're pretty helpful.  I've also got a How to Play Hero System link in my signature (here if you're viewing with signatures turned off) which includes links to other helpful documents and threads here, at RPG.net, and elsewhere.

 

Edit:  Also added The Big Thread of Helpful Howto's to my signature.

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I didn't mean it to sound unfriendly, it just looks like he's looking for a game without some of Hero's more complicated mechanics and with different roll structures, and there are a lot of systems out there they might like better.  The problem with text is that there's no tone of voice, so you have to guess at what people intend. Probably its best to not presume malice without some sort of cause or indication?

 

I believe you but I dont think you can rely on everyone else cutting you (or any of the rest of us) slack.

 

You are right, text has no tone of voice so it is incumbent on us writers to ensure we do in text what voice does by intonation.  I dont think I am the only one that will have interpreted your text the way I did.  

 

Doc

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Hi there! I would like your help in coming up with some alternate/streamlined rules for HERO. While I don't necessarily want to strip away everything and make it into a different game, I would like to see what options we can come up with that won't require rewriting vast chunks of the system. Also, this stuff is pretty much all subjective. I'm not really interested in a debate over the necessity or lack thereof here; mostly I want to see what options are doable, and then go from there.

 

Roll-Under to Roll-Over

Purely an aesthetic thing, but I really dislike roll-under. I especially dislike it when mixed in the same game (possibly in the same turn, even), such as rolling low to hit and then rolling high for damage. I would like to convert all target number rolls to roll-over, but preferably without breaking anything. Is this possible? If so, how do we do it?

 

SPD Chart = RIP Chart

I don't much care for the Speed Chart and multiple actions per turn. I'd prefer to simplify it down to a single round's worth of actions per turn, without necessarily having to lose Post-12 Recovery, or at least having Recovery still be a thing.

 

Related: I'd also like to make this easier when figuring out movement rates in more common/intuitive values. For me, MPH (even KPH) is a little easier to grok than "moves 2500m in a half-phase action." Or at the least, the "move 2500m as a move action" thing would be easier if I didn't also have to consider each segment in a turn. Since a lot of the games I'd like to use HERO for would involve trying to figure movement stuff like this, I'd like to find a way to make this much simpler.

 

Examples of Play and of Character Builds

I might need some help on specific builds or examples of play in action, to get a better feel for how things work, if anyone would be up for that. If so, I will come up with a few things and list them here. For now, I want to start with the above two items.

 

Oh, I guess one thing that comes to mind is adding DCs, especially with HKAs involved and such. Can someone break down a few different examples of how it would work if a character used an HKA, and what would happen if that character picked up, say, a broken bottle, a staff, or a boulder?

 

People have covered roll high very well. I am someone who also likes roll high. It works well with "Target Numbers". 

 

I do like the Spd Chart a lot. It gives a great way to differentiate between Mooks(ie weak opponents, untrained folk) Spd 2, Trained individuals (ie Combat Veterans), and Elite (Special Forces guys, Top tier Martial Artists etc).The Spd chart doesn't really do much to speed or slow things down in my experience. Unless you are playing Champions and you have characters with a Wide range of SPD values. Even with that having players who are ready to take their action when their phase comes up fixes a lot of that issue. Which IS an issue with ANY RPG. Players who can't decide or who who don't decide what to do until their phase comes up. There's easy fixes for that. Also the SPD chart is a bit easier to remove in a non Superheroic game where setting everyone to the same SPD doesn't hurt much. In a Supers game, putting everyone at the same speed really makes Martial Artists and Speedsters feel the same as the slow team Brick. Which is not good for the Genre IMHO. YMMV

 

Example later when I am more awake.

 

 

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In the rules there are things which officially take no time.  Examples are "making a PRE attack, making a soliloquy, or making a roll at the GM's request".

 

I dont think this covers conversation, even for the most creative of players.  However, if the villain stands up to crow about his role in the players downfall, none of them get the chance to fire a cheeky energy blast at his mouth....it takes no time...

 

"An Action Which Takes No Time" is simply a category of actions which do not require a full or half phase, and can be performed even when it isn't the character's phase. I don't think that actually means no time passes while you are speaking. I give characters some latitude in my aforementioned ruling when it comes to presence attacks, but only some.

I also just don't buy that a villain can monologue for three paragraphs without giving the heroes an opportunity to do anything about it (or at least take recoveries). The stretching of time to allow them to do so is just bad storytelling in my opinion, and it really annoys me in comics, cartoons, and cinema, so I squash it with vehemence in my games. I give my players the opportunity to interrupt the villain's monologue (and vice versa). Call it a house-rule if you like, but it does speed up gameplay. Like I said before, players find it a little frustrating at first, but once they get used to it its not hard to fit a soliloquy or warning into 2-6 seconds. Speaking isn't actually necessary to make a presence attack, any number of high presence characters (like Batman) can do it with a stern glare.

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"An Action Which Takes No Time" is simply a category of actions which do not require a full or half phase, and can be performed even when it isn't the character's phase. I don't think that actually means no time passes while you are speaking. I give characters some latitude in my aforementioned ruling when it comes to presence attacks, but only some.

I also just don't buy that a villain can monologue for three paragraphs without giving the heroes an opportunity to do anything about it (or at least take recoveries). The stretching of time to allow them to do so is just bad storytelling in my opinion, and it really annoys me in comics, cartoons, and cinema, so I squash it with vehemence in my games. I give my players the opportunity to interrupt the villain's monologue (and vice versa). Call it a house-rule if you like, but it does speed up gameplay. Like I said before, players find it a little frustrating at first, but once they get used to it its not hard to fit a soliloquy or warning into 2-6 seconds. Speaking isn't actually necessary to make a presence attack, any number of high presence characters (like Batman) can do it with a stern glare.

 

Your call and indeed a houserule...

 

RAW, these things take no time.  If RAW dont fit your game though, you get rid of them and THAT is what this thread is all about..

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​Getting back on topic...

 

SPD Chart = RIP Chart

I don't much care for the Speed Chart and multiple actions per turn. I'd prefer to simplify it down to a single round's worth of actions per turn, without necessarily having to lose Post-12 Recovery, or at least having Recovery still be a thing.

 

Related: I'd also like to make this easier when figuring out movement rates in more common/intuitive values. For me, MPH (even KPH) is a little easier to grok than "moves 2500m in a half-phase action." Or at the least, the "move 2500m as a move action" thing would be easier if I didn't also have to consider each segment in a turn. Since a lot of the games I'd like to use HERO for would involve trying to figure movement stuff like this, I'd like to find a way to make this much simpler.

 

I can totally empathize with your opinions regarding the Speed Chart. In theory, I love the speed chart... But in practice, not so much. The Speed Chart interacts strangely with other aspects of the rules (Vehicles/Mounts, Velocity-Based Maneuvers, etc). If you want to ditch the Speed Chart entirely: I suggest going with treating everyone as though they had a SPD of 3. There are three reasons for picking SPD 3 over SPD 2 or 4.

The first reason is simple precedent. Bases, which don't have SPD scores, are treated as though they have a dormant SPD of 3 for the purposes of Constant Powers and such.

The second reason is interaction with other aspects of the rules. SPD 3 is the minimum SPD score necessary to provide a mechanical differentiation between Extra Time (Extra Phase), and Extra Time (1 Turn). SPD 3 (as compared to SPD 4 at least) also minimizes the amount of "free movement" this optional rule grants a 0-point character (and by extension, every character).

The third reason is the SPD 3 is the value suggested in HERO System 6th for "Removing Speed" in one of the tool kitting sections. So it is, after a fashion, RAW.

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