Help me create some alternate rules for streamlining HERO

[Chris Goodwin]

Hm. So in this case, is "per Turn" meaning the 12-segment turn? Though I really do want to figure out a good alternative to doing that, and hopefully with you folks helping I'll be able to.

Correct, 12 segments, each segment being one second. 

 

 

Thank you, I will definitely check those out!

 

The How To Play HERO System doc I wrote really only covers character creation; I ran out of steam after I got that far and haven't gotten back to it.  It does link to threads you actually started here and at RPG.net some time ago, asking for help streamlining Hero.    I linked them in because there was helpful information there as well.  

[Chris Goodwin]

Roll-Under to Roll-Over

 

I think combat was covered pretty well.  Skills aren't quite as easy, but I came up with a way that just flips the default skill roll values.  

 

In standard HERO System, most Intellect, Interaction, and Agility Skills cost 1 point for Familiarity (or 8- in the standard system), 2 points for Proficiency (10- in the standard system), 3 points for the CHA Roll (9+CHA/5 or less), +2 points for +1.  

 

In this system, the basic Target Number (TN) for both Characteristic Rolls and Skills is 12+.  You'd roll 3d6 + your Skill Bonus (see below) or your Characteristic Bonus (see below as well), and try to equal or exceed your TN.

 

For each of the Primary Characteristics, the Characteristic Bonus is equal to CHA/5.  You'd note this down on the character sheet next to the Characteristic.  For a character with Primary Characteristics of 10, a basic Characteristic Roll, or a Skill Roll at full Characteristic value, becomes 3d6 + 2 >= 12, or 3d6 at 10+ (which converts to 11- in the standard system).  For an opposed roll, each character rolls 3d6 and adds their appropriate (Skill or Characteristic) Bonus; the higher value succeeds.  You can modify the TN up or down from 12 to represent greater or lesser difficulty; penalties either reduce the dice roll or increase the target number, up to the GM.  Additional bonuses add to the dice roll.

 

Buying Skills

 

For Agility, Intellect, Interaction Skills: for 1 point (Familiarity), your Skill Bonus is -1.  For 2 points (Proficiency), your Skill Bonus is +1.  For 3 points, your Skill Bonus is equal to the Characteristic Bonus; an additional +1 to the Skill Bonus costs +2 points.  

 

For Background Skills: for 1 point (Familiarity) your Skill Bonus is -1.  For 2 points, your Skill Bonus is +2.  For 3 points, your Skill Bonus is equal to the Characteristic Bonus; an additional +1 to the Skill Bonus costs +1 point.

 

On the character sheet, you'd note down the points spent, the name of the Skill, and the Skill Bonus.  So you might have something that looks like the following: 

 

STR: 10 (+2)   DEX: 10 (+2)   CON: 10 (+2)   INT 13 (+3)   EGO 10 (+2)   PRE 18 (+4)

 

Cost  Skill

1        Familiarity with Animal Handling -1

3        Computer Programming +3

2        KS: Authors Whose Last Names Begin With L +2

3        SS: Zoology +3

7        Sleight of Hand +4

3        Stealth +2

 

Comments?  Questions?

[Hugh Neilson]

It is worth restating that I gave the players some latitude for soliloquys and presence attacks, and that "Combat Speech" is still a No Time Action in that it doesn't consume their phase, and can be performed outside of their phase. Most of the time when Spider Man quips, it is during another action (such a movement or to punctuate a successful attack), or during someone else's phase (such as when he successfully dodges an attack), either of which are still completely legal under my house rule.

It does not sound like the end result did much that imposing reasonable limits on in-combat communication would not have done.

 

No, the PCs didn't routinely blast monologuing villains when they stalled for time, and vice versa. Nor did the PCs refrain from soliloquys themselves

 

The main "ripple effects" of timing "Combat Speed" that I noticed were:

Combat lasted slightly longer In-Game. Out-Of-Game combat was slightly shorter, because players spent less time discussing tactics.

Same as if we simply accepted reasonable limits to time spend discussing tactics. Because that is what we have done.

 

Everyone got more Post Segment 12 Recoveries.

So I should buy higher REC and lower END/STUN in this model. OK. Maybe I should spend less on SPD since I'll just spend more phases listening to people talk for my investment.

 

PCs/NPCs frequently had to Hold Action to wait for a response, if the PC thought they would lose an action, sometimes they Guarded their Area, took Recoveries, or used Set and Brace, or used Cover.

OK - and they would not otherwise have waited for a response, with the need to hold their actions? I see that all the time in our games, despite not restricting word count formally.

 

PCs/NPCs used different phrasing, and spoke more succinctly when they needed to convey information in a short period of time. Long awkward phrases like "Watch out for the green dragon's acid breath" were replaced with impassioned cries of "Take Cover!"

 

Seriously, once players got used to the rule, I felt like it really improved roleplaying. In my opinion it was because:

1.  They had to think less about "efficient use of their phases", knowing that I wasn't going to punish them for "wasting" a few seconds. Especially when a character had "time to burn" because another PC was talking to an NPC and segments were actually passing during the exchange.

2.  They thought more critically about what they wanted to say, knowing it actually took time to say it. Which meant they were more likely to think about how their character would speak, and what they would say.

3.  They felt the passage of time more keenly In-Game. They felt the tension when they waited for an enemy to respond, not knowing immediately what would happen next.

So how much time do I get to think about how my character can say the same thing in less words? Seems like that's just as likely to slow the game down.

 

Ultimately, it sounds like much ado about nothing to me, but clearly you had a need to reduce in-combat tactical discussions. In my games, that would probably be "guys, how long do we really have to discuss this in the middle of combat", just as no one would provide a movie synopsis or explain the concept of free will during their phase.

 

Ultimately, though, it sounds like your rule made your games more fun - that makes it a good house rule.

[Doc Democracy]

Ultimately, though, it sounds like your rule made your games more fun - that makes it a good house rule.

 

The true measure of any house rule....

[Lucius]

 

 

My suggestion (presented again to give context to Hugh Neilson's remarks):

 

A Turn is six seconds. Every character gets one action per Turn.

After taking your action, immediately gain half your RECovery in END and STUN.

 

If you take a RECovery as your action, you gain the full REC value and also gain the half REC afterwards.

 

Your Movement rate is the distance you move as a full action, and also as far as you can move in combat in one Turn. Multiply it by 600 to get velocity in meters per hour, or by .6 to get kilometers per hour.

 

 

This impacts the Time Chart because it abolishes the distinction between Turn and Phase. Most references to a Turn (Extra Time: One Turn or Continuing Charges, One Turn, etc) can now be read as two Turns.

 

 

Haymakers must be announced at the beginning of the Turn, and are resolved at the end after all other actions.

 

 

If it were me, and I may be misreading Claire’s objectives, I like a standard SPD of 4 because it will make the PCs, and their toughest adversaries, really special – a cut above most others. So, in a Supers game, the PCs and supervillains have SPD 4, highly trained agents have a 3 and most mooks – thugs, soldiers, alien invaders – have a 2.

 

Maybe that Aliens game works better with everyone getting a 3 SPD, and we have combatants who are a cut above noncombatants. Or maybe the Aliens are faster and have a 4 SPD – that feels more like the movies, and makes them more scary.

All of this is valid as far as it goes and is not far from the approach I've taken running Heroic Fantasy games. But I think perhaps you have, in fact, misread Claire Redfield's objectives - see below.

 

Gut feel is I don’t like halving REC for its most standard function. Maybe drop the base to 2 and double the cost (or give them the extra 2 as a higher baseline), to get a similar speed of recovery, but without the halving. Maybe you can sacrifice a half phase action to get a recovery, maybe it doubles if you sacrifice a full phase, or maybe we just have less effective in-combat recovery.

 

The “one turn equals two turns” aspect is painful. Having two “action phases” per turn would keep a post-turn recovery, avoid changes to REC and fix a lot of other nomenclature issues.

 

The Haymaker approach seems reasonable, except that now we have “Who acts first” being interrupted with anyone attempting a Haymaker. How big a deal that is depends on how often anyone uses a Haymaker. These now seem like D&D 1 Round Actions.

As far as Haymaker goes, I see this as more a feature than a bug. It does mean that if you want to Haymaker, it's going to cost you two of your Turns.

 

What seems streamlined to some may seem complicating to others, so I think it better to ask “what is the issue we are trying to resolve”.

I think I found the answer to that question in another thread and am crossposting it here.

 

SPD Chart = RIP Chart

I don't much care for the Speed Chart and multiple actions per turn. I'd prefer to simplify it down to a single round's worth of actions per turn, without necessarily having to lose Post-12 Recovery, or at least having Recovery still be a thing.

If you want multiple actions per turn, what you want is the SPD chart. If someone doesn't want the SPD chart, I tend to assume that is because they DON'T WANT multiple actions per turn, and a solution that preserves multiple actions per turn is what they don't want.

 

Related: I'd also like to make this easier when figuring out movement rates in more common/intuitive values. For me, MPH (even KPH) is a little easier to grok than "moves 2500m in a half-phase action." Or at the least, the "move 2500m as a move action" thing would be easier if I didn't also have to consider each segment in a turn. Since a lot of the games I'd like to use HERO for would involve trying to figure movement stuff like this, I'd like to find a way to make this much simpler.

I have to admit, it's a little hard for me to relate to this. When I play a role playing game - any role playing game - I often find myself asking questions like "Can I move up adjacent to this enemy and make a melee attack this action?" or "Can I move out of the area of this effect this action?" or "How much Range can I put between myself and that guy with a ranged attack, before they attack again?" Movement is a tactical factor that figures into tactical considerations.

 

I almost never find myself having a need to ask "Exactly how many Kilomters per Hour am I moving as I charge forward and plunge my spear into that Troll?"

 

But I DO get that the way the SPD chart interacts with Movement can trip people up. And redefining the Turn as Six Seconds seems to me like a good way to eliminate that issue.

 

 

The problem with eliminating multiple actions per Turn is that you then have to make massive changes to the way END and REC work.

I don't think the changes to END and REC have to be "massive." I think the real problems are going to be the kind of thing Hugh Neilson has been pointing out - ripple effects like "Flash is potentially more effective now."

 

Some other implications might fall into what I call "a feature, not a bug." For example, I once had a minor Gadgeteer character with a SPD of 4 who one session had a gas grenade in the Gadget Pool. I handed off the grenade to a SPD 6 teammate to use - so that the gas would do its thing to our opponents every 2 segements rather than every 3 segments. If Constant Powers no longer take effect at different times based on who uses them, I don't think that's a bad thing.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that this is changing Hero but isn't sure it's stream lining it.

[Hugh Neilson]

If you want multiple actions per turn, what you want is the SPD chart. If someone doesn't want the SPD chart, I tend to assume that is because they DON'T WANT multiple actions per turn, and a solution that preserves multiple actions per turn is what they don't want.

So what is a "turn", other than an arbitrary name we hang on the period of time that, in Hero standard rules, encompasses 12 segments in which a character has a number of actions equal to his SPD (or twice his SPD if we consider each half phase action an "action" - does getting a move and an attack not constitute multiple actions?).

 

I consider it more "I don't like each character having a different number of actions in a turn, or some characters acting more frequently than others". I'm also a fan of the simplest solution. "Everyone has the same SPD" is a lot easier than trying to figure out where recoveries go if we ditch the SPD chart, how Flash, Damage over Time, Extra Time, adjustment powers, etc. will work, and so on.

 

It really depends on what about "multiple actions in a turn" is considered problematic.

 

I have to admit, it's a little hard for me to relate to this. When I play a role playing game - any role playing game - I often find myself asking questions like "Can I move up adjacent to this enemy and make a melee attack this action?" or "Can I move out of the area of this effect this action?" or "How much Range can I put between myself and that guy with a ranged attack, before they attack again?" Movement is a tactical factor that figures into tactical considerations.

I agree to a point. But if I'm travelling long distances, this matters. Can my flyer go coast to coast in an hour, or will it take a week? If my Speedster turns out to run 23 km/hr, he's not really streaking down the road like I envisioned from the TV show. And if my trained normal can outsprint a cheetah, that does not feel right either (although we may be back to tactical for that one).

 

As to the grenade working faster, simple answer - you made it, so it works on your speed. Quick ruling from the bench and the game progresses. [Or you next meet a 12 SPD teleporter who teleports your grenade to himself and tosses it in - now it affects your team every segment]

[Lucius]

As to the grenade working faster, simple answer - you made it, so it works on your speed. Quick ruling from the bench and the game progresses. [Or you next meet a 12 SPD teleporter who teleports your grenade to himself and tosses it in - now it affects your team every segment]

It's not that simple. Okay, so I made it and it works on my SPD of 4. Now my teammate with SPD 6 who has either their own Variable Power Pool or some extra XP available asks for my blueprints and makes one. Wow, their grenade is 50% more effective!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a SPD 13 palindromedary

[Grailknight]

It's not that simple. Okay, so I made it and it works on my SPD of 4. Now my teammate with SPD 6 who has either their own Variable Power Pool or some extra XP available asks for my blueprints and makes one. Wow, their grenade is 50% more effective!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a SPD 13 palindromedary

 

Hmm, two options here.

 

Rewrite the rules for the Constant Powers, Charges and AOE to prevent this. Maybe you can do this and streamline the rules, but I'll let you handle that.

 

or

 

Recognize that the extra 20 points he put into SPD gives him some advantages.(the blueprints are irrelevant as they are part of SFX and not mechanics).

[Doc Democracy]

You know.  If a grenade does not work the way you want it to, ot in a way that seems counter-intuitive then it is probably a bad build rather than a fault of the system.  

 

:-)

 

Doc

[Lucius]

 

I wasn't trying to derail the thread....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says that's what I get for throwing a grenade into the middle of it.

[Hugh Neilson]

It's not that simple. Okay, so I made it and it works on my SPD of 4. Now my teammate with SPD 6 who has either their own Variable Power Pool or some extra XP available asks for my blueprints and makes one. Wow, their grenade is 50% more effective!

 

If you buy a 12d6 Blast Energy Rifle, you get to fire it 4 times a turn and your teammate gets to fire the same 12d6 Blast Energy Rifle six times per turn.

 

Eliminating this discrepancy can be achieved either by removing SPD, or by mandating all characters have the same SPD. In either case, both characters' gas grenades will act with the same frequency, and both characters will fire their Blast Energy Rifles with equal frequency. Given that, I don't think the gas grenade example suggests one approach over the other, but might motivate a model where all PCs have the same number of actions.

 

The grenade issue can also be solved by a Damage over Time build, rather than Continuing Charges. I wonder if we would have Continuing Charges if Damage over Time had been added earlier. They accomplish similar objectives, but in somewhat different ways.

 

Actually, although a much more substantial effort, Hero could be streamlined by rationalizing multiple mechanics that accomplish similar effects, although not as germane to this topic which is more focused on streamlining the gameplay itself.

 

Not sure if Claire is still reading, or looking for a more streamlined thread at this point

[whitekeys]

In a way, it's rules themselves that aren't streamlined. Everyone has to learn them, and if you do something contrary, then you have to pause and fix it, etc. Think of rules each like a tight rope, all lined up beside each other running parallel: it's hard to get everyone on the right track at the same time!

 

I would simply remove rules to streamline, rather than find alternates, but that's just me. Which parts of HERO are feeling Bulky or Immobile for you? The conversation lately has been about SPD and Segments... I do combat how I see it in the movies. I go from player to player and they each get a few chances to do what they do and for the enemy to attack. When it makes sense to switch more frequently, like when players want to Coordinate attacks, or call to each other across the battle zone, then I do that. 

 

I tend to have another "rule" which is that if I don't actually know what the rule is, then I make it up on the spot. I use it as an opportunity to go back later and learn it for real, so next time I have the answer to the question immediately, rather than stopping to look it up then. Just keep going.

 

Also, shave your head, get one of those speed skater body suits, and adopt a slightly crouched position from now on. That will streamline more than just HERO - you could even get to work faster.

[whitekeys]

Okay, so I actually went back and read some of the posts, including your original one (the title was so descriptive, it just filled me with confidence )

 

You did mention a few things that you felt were Bulky. I'm not going to suggest anything specific. But you also asked for some examples of play, so I thought I'd type one out for you as an extension of my last post. Keeping in mind that this is an example of play that not only has removed the SPD chart, but removed the idea of "turns" altogether, and I use turn here in the children's way, not the HERO way. (Prophylactic) I'm not sure why turn-taking and measuring of precise increments of time is so important when it comes to combat anyway, aside from someone's idea of fairness. The following is essentially a non-combat version of combat. (/Prophylactic)

 

GM: Guard droids are swarming down the hallway toward you, maybe 30 of them, some wielding blasters, some wielding stun rods, others clawing their way up the wall and over the ceiling. They'll be on you in a few seconds!

 

Strombo: I grit my teeth, reach up with my left hand to grab the folds of my capote. I tear it away, revealing my luchador bright blue and yellow sequined outfit and my snake mascara. "Pleassse, get in line", I say calmly.

 

Rady: It's time! "I've crushed cans bigger than you on my forehead for breakfast!" I yell as I charge toward the mass of clinking robots.

 

GM: A stream of blaster fire sears through the air toward you, Rady.

 

Rady: I dodge, combat rolling forward and coming up crouched. I jump up over the first of the bots and land in the thick of them ready for a 360 leg sweep of the baton holders. Hyaw!

 

GM: One of them drops from the ceiling and successfully lands on your back; it grips your throat , the cold steel makes it hard to know if you've been cut or not. As you grasp at the droid's arm and claw, a stun baton gets you in the gut and doubles you over. Then suddenly all the surrounding droids are dog piling on top of you.

 

Rady: Perfect time to jump the heck out of here. I go straight up and I take the whole lot of them with me, smashing a few into the ceiling above and hopefully breaking out of the Grab.

 

GM: Sweet! Success! Strombo, over to you. The first few wall climbers pass Rady by as he charges, and head straight for you. 

 

Strombo: I hold an action to grab the first one that reaches me and I crush its head down into its chest.

 

GM: The next one rolls towards you, bearing its claws, but it just misses to the left. Blaster fire continues to whiz past, and a few of the bolts bounce off your sequined outfit. Gotta love sequins.

 

Strombo: And Spanish accents! Alright, I grab the next one nearest me and I pin it down on the ground, get on top of it, pull its head back and it's leg up: "Say Uncle, scum circuit"

 

GM: The bolts holding it together simply rip under the force and it's head and leg come off, destroying it utterly.

 

Strombo: "Aha! Another 1 count for Strombo! Too bad, so sad"

 

GM: "Kill the flamboyant one!" you hear the robotic vocoder spit as it flails its stun baton in your general direction.

 

Strombo: "Flamboyant? Why... Caida!" [executes some crazy high-flying wrestling move that crushes a number of nearby droids]

 

GM: You catch a glimpse of Rady and he's pretty surrounded by droids, moreso than you.

 

Strombo: I run in the opposite direction and I call out "Parejas Lucharan". I come up against a group of droids that had gathered behind me, and I drop my shoulder, leaning into them. The group of them sways backward against the force, but, just like the elastic ropes on the luchador ring, they counter act my shove and send me hurtling in toward Rady.

 

Rady: I hear the call for tag team and I do the same thing.

 

GM: As you run toward each other, the mass of droids falls in behind each of you.

 

[as they pass, they link arms and send themselves into a spiraly swing, just as the mass of droids closes in on them. The Parejas Luchador's feet fling out to the side as if they were on some spinning theme park ride, and they twirl around, kicking all the robots in the face and sending them flying out in all directions. They land hard on their stomachs in a cloud of dust]

 

"Ganamos!"

 

/scene.

 

So that was basically just to demonstrate how you can move back and forth from one character to another, giving each a few "turns" to do their thing and respond to the opponents. It was missing a lot of the basic calculations, so the scene could have turned out differently, and yes, I also realize it was missing a few of the options for blocking attacks, etc. But you can still fit that all in while focusing on one character, and adjudicate what-happens-when as is dramatically appropriate. Just apply all of the same stuff that happens in non-combat scenes to combat, like who-says-what before the other person, or when exactly you come into ear shot of a conversation, etc.

 

P.S. I had fun with that. Feel free to use the characters, anyone!

[bigdamnhero]

This old thread might have some helpful/relevant info.