Does magic in the Champions Universe require talent?

[Dino]

Does magic in the Champions Universe require talent, or can anyone study magic and cast spells? the DEMON source book indicates that Morbanes spend a great amount of effort locating people with latent magical talent to recruit but doesn't actually state that people without "the gift" cannot become spell casters through hard work and study. The Stronghold source book states in it's section on superhuman law that "in some cases" the ability to cast spells is a paranormal ability not a superhuman one. It goes on to list Witchcraft as a paranormal hero.

 

If magic is a fundamental force in a given universe then it makes sense that any reasonably intelligent person who takes the time to study and practice it will succeed. It's like teaching yourself physics or music. You might not be good at it, but the knowledge is there for the learning. If magic requires an "x" factor, then its really just another superpower and normal people who study it may amass great theoretical knowledge but will never directly benefit from it. It's an important distinction that I feel has been swept under the rug in the Champions Universe. What do you guys think?

[Greywind]

It works however the GM decides it works, given the input of his players based upon any characters they create that use (or are used by) magic.

[bubba smith]

I would think ANYBODY could use magic

[Lord Liaden]

It works however the GM decides it works, given the input of his players based upon any characters they create that use (or are used by) magic.

 

That is, absolutely, the first rule for anyone's personal campaign, whether or not they use published materials. As Steve Long has repeatedly written in the rule books: You bought the game, it's yours to change in any way you and your game group would find more fun.

 

Now if you want to confine your discussion to the official Champions Universe -- and I would actually call it the "Hero Universe" for this purpose, since the history of spell-casting goes back many millennia in the official time-line, to the antediluvian civilizations before recorded history (but recorded in Hero Games setting books) -- the precedents described for the setting suggest a number of possible routes an aspiring wizard can take to gain the power of magic. Learning spells through study and practice is definitely one route, but one does have to have some talent for it. Not everyone can become an adept; like music or mathematics or handicrafts, some people are born with a natural affinity for the Arts Arcane. Magical talent appears to be rarer than any of those other abilities (and may involve qualities beyond the purely intellectual and physical, such as strength of will and spirit), but a fair number of people who choose to make the effort can learn a few simple spells or a particular magical discipline. But mastering power at the "super" level seems to require innate ability comparable to a virtuoso musician and composer. Mere study isn't enough. For example, the scholars of the Trismegistus Council, the CU's premier "good" occult organization, are among the most mystically-knowledgeable people in the world, but few of them wield actual power comparable even to a beginning superhero. (Even this restriction has work-arounds, though, as we'll examine later.)

 

Talent for magic sometimes manifests in minor ways discovered by accident. Black Rose, the leader of the Sentinels superhero team, was born of an Earth woman and a father from the magical dimension of Lythrum. As a child she learned she could open small portals to Lythrum, eventually enabling her to travel there and learn more Lythruman sorcery. Many people never progress beyond that basic level, or only in a very narrow discipline. Martika Duquesne, mother of Witchcraft of the Champions, discovered her aptitude for astral projection, and over decades has become very skilled at using it to spy on people, and to visit other dimensions; but has little magic skill beyond that.

 

Translating one's natural talent into practical power usually requires instruction by someone more experienced. The time-honored practice on Champs Earth is to find (or be found by) an adept in a particular style of magic willing to train you. Because of the secrecy common among magicians, finding the real thing as opposed to charlatans and con men is a difficult and time-consuming process. OTOH once you find one, and demonstrate your genuine talent and desire to learn, most adepts seem to want to pass on their learning to a worthy successor. It's not uncommon for a student to eventually surpass the skill and power of his or her master. Some of the most powerful and versatile magicians spend years traveling the world seeking multiple masters, so as to broaden and deepen their understanding of the Art.

 

Some agencies in the CU can function as a sort of "master class" in the deepest of magical lore. For example, the wizard known as the Eternal Tulku is reputed to be a former Archmage (Earth's premier mystic defender) who achieved extraordinary longevity. Tulku sometimes teaches magicians of proven skill, although since he suffers from dementia he won't waste his periods of clarity on any but the most worthy. The ancient serpentine race called the Nagas have vast occult knowledge, which they'll sometimes impart to mystics for their own (benevolent but mysterious) purposes.

 

Would-be wizards may find themselves in circumstances where it's much easier to locate a tutor. Among particular extended family groups, notably "occult dynasties" like the Vandaleurs and the Kayvanzadi, the talent for and practice of magic is much more common than in the general populace. A few distinct societies, like the Lemurians and the inhabitants of the dimension of Babylon, utilize magic in many of their activities. There are also cults, such as DEMON or Ouroboros, who teach their members particular spells or styles of magic as part of their "religious" training. Often these spells draw upon the power and reflect the qualities of whatever gods, demons, or other entities the cult propitiates or associates with.

 

A few Champions magicians learned magic entirely on their own through the study of arcane grimoires, sometimes attaining significant power, like Golem and Gyre of the Devil's Advocates mystic villain team. But without a more experienced mentor to supervise their experiments, these magical tomes pose great risk for the beginning spell-caster. More than one official novice mage has suffered serious unintended consequences from a spell improperly understood or executed. However, studying occult texts is one of the most common ways veteran super mages increase their knowledge and power.

 

Even rarer than someone with the capacity to be taught magic, is the so-called "wild talent," able to wield significant magic power without any formal training or study at all. Typically the wild talent's abilities are more narrowly focused than those of a trained mage. For example, Morgaine the Mystic, of the Crimelords team, is a wild talent with power over the four elements of Western occult tradition.

 

Yet even if you lack the innate capacity for magic, you can still aspire to attain magical power. Some people can be imbued with the potential to learn magic by accident, such as Dr. Black and Dr. White of UNITY, who were changed after being kidnapped and nearly sacrificed in a botched cult ritual. They later sought out the veteran super mage called Eldritch for instruction in how to use their new abilities. Another well-traveled road to power is to make a pact with a supernatural being, for the knowledge and capacity to wield certain spell-like effects. Valerian Scarlet, the sorceress of Vibora Bay, bargained with a demon named Kerathios for her spell abilities. The typical down side to such a pact is that the empowering entity can remove these abilities if displeased with the pacter. And some of the most powerful magic users on Champs Earth, such as the Crowns of Krim villain team, have little to no magical knowledge or spell-casting skill, deriving their supernatural attributes from enchanted artifacts.

 

[The majority of the above setting-based information is derived from the PnP books, Champions Universe (describing the CU overall), and The Mystic World (focusing on the magic part of the setting). Supplementary material was drawn from Champions Universe: News Of The World, Vibora Bay, DEMON: Servants Of Darkness, and UNTIL: Defenders Of Freedom. Several of the villains mentioned above are fully detailed in the Champions Villains trilogy.

 

I also highly recommend The Ultimate Mystic, a scholarly but accessible and entertaining exploration of real-world and fictional magical conventions and traditions, and advice on how to translate them to gaming. It's by Hero Games, the publishers of PnP Champions, but for the most part isn't tied to the official Champions setting. Rather, it's designed to be inspiration for any game genre. It's mostly info and guidelines, with minimal PnP game mechanics.]

[Lord Liaden]

I would think ANYBODY could use magic

 

In the real world there's a fundamental philosophical difference between magic and science. Science asserts that the principles by which nature operates are completely external to a person studying them. They function whether someone knows about them or not, whether they believe in them or not. Nature has no intentions or motivations, it simply is. Manipulating it to one's advantage requires learning the formulas which govern its mechanics, and anyone with access to that knowledge could achieve the same results.

 

Magic is directly affected by the subjectivity of the magician. Belief in it is fundamental to its success. The magician imposes his/her will on reality, altering it as desired. The forces to be influenced often have wills and desires of their own, and the magician needs the skill to persuade or coerce them to cooperate. If he's unable to do so the magic fails, regardless of how thorough his knowledge is.

[TheDarkness]

Further, there is an argument for many kinds of magic being outside of bases of knowledge, and more related to creative impulses than codified knowledge.

 

I view it as, some magic is learned, but there are kinds that one has to have the right perspective to have access to.

[Christopher]

In the Hero System Rules construct, Magic is first a Special Effect (short: SFX). Same as fire, lightning, wind and "Fists for Faces".

The usual rules for special effects apply:
They do not alter the power in any regulary, meaningfull way (a 12d6 Blast does the same effect, wheter it be "magic" or "human torch flame blast" SFX). Do not let them imply anything about how the power is build, wich limitations to apply and the forth.

 

There can be some fringe case where special effect does mater:

Vulnerabilities, Limited Defenses, Mandatory Desolidifcation/Resurrection Weaknes, Drains targetting a special efect.
Some special effects and natural circumstances interact (there is a whole section on special effects and water).
 

But overall, special effect does not mater in Hero (the rule system).

It does not mater in most superheroic games. The 12d6 "Magic Blast" and 12d6 "Fire blast" cost the same points.

 

Heroic games are a trickier beast from a balancing point of view. Magic there is just any kind of "Inate power", as opposed to "Equipment based powers" wich normally dominate the game. Generally if you can stay on the superheroic side of managing powers, stay there.

[Heroic Halfwit]

With respect, I must disagree with Lord Liaden.  Magic does not require the subjective belief of anyone, nor is it is fundamentally unnatural.  Magic is that branch of physics which best explains that which current physics fails.

 

Once upon a time I was told very interesting things about physics.  Quantum physics works fine on the small scale, astrophysics on the large but despite supposedly describing the same fundamental force are incompatible with one another.  There are instances when it appears that the electron in a Hydrogen atom are in 2 places as the same time, or occasional nowhere.  Of subatomic particles with "1/3 spin" as a characteristic (never did get an adequate explanation of that one, but we were rather deep in our cups at the time.)

 

Imagine, for the moment, that physics does a darn good job of describing and predicting events in this plane of space time absent the interference of another dimension of space time.  Imagine magic as the science of describing and predicting events occurring in this plane when two or more dimensions of space time interact.  Proto-String Theory if you prefer.

 

Your pardon, I haven't slept and I get weird sleep deprived, but there could be no more influence of subjective believe on the operations of magic than the operations of physics in a weight lifter.  The science is the same, the belief merely allows the human participant to direct more energy toward the stated goal.  We see belief have profound effects in athletic and academic performance, the perception of pain, recovery from injury, you can literally think yourself sick unto death.  Belief is important, even powerful, but need be no more necessary to magic than physics.

[Lord Liaden]

And with respect, HH, while your explanation for what magic "really" is makes logical sense from a modern perspective, it doesn't really line up with how the real-world traditions themselves describe and explain it.

 

Most magic traditions hold that the world perceivable to most people is separate from or a mask over the spirit world/higher reality, etc. Some philosophies hold that perceivable reality is itself illusory, and sufficient applied individual will can alter that illusion. Spirits, gods, demons etc. aren't just devices to be turned on or off, they're beings who must be negotiated with in one way or another to get them to cooperate. Magical traditions such as Hindu yogic mysticism and Taoist sorcery demand the magician follow physical and mental disciplines to prepare his body, mind, and spirit to channel the "energies" of magic.

 

Bringing all this back to the actual thread topic , there's typically more required to practice magic practically than just intelligence and time to study. In the Champions Universe, while there isn't any sort of genetic key a person has to be born with to learn magic (although it seems a few people do have inborn magical power), someone aspiring to wield the power of a world-class "supermage" would need the rare equivalent of the talent to be a world-class physicist, a world-class musician, and a world-class athlete, all in one.

[Christopher]

Your pardon, I haven't slept and I get weird sleep deprived, but there could be no more influence of subjective believe on the operations of magic than the operations of physics in a weight lifter.  The science is the same, the belief merely allows the human participant to direct more energy toward the stated goal.  We see belief have profound effects in athletic and academic performance, the perception of pain, recovery from injury, you can literally think yourself sick unto death.  Belief is important, even powerful, but need be no more necessary to magic than physics.

Ultimatively I sum up the diference between Science and Belief like this:

Science is that wich has been proove right time and time again. But could be disprooven with one repeatable experiment. It just was not around yet.

Believe is something that can never be proven or disproven.

 

Now we do have proof that strong emotional setup allows a human to override many hardcoded limits on his bodies functions, like maximum exertable strenght. That is not believe. It is a prooven fact.

Now what makes magic truly ... well magic ... is that it can not be fully explained. That there is a mystery. That there will always be a mystery. Magic that lost's it's magic, is as mundane as using a Telephone.

[assault]

While the theoretical stuff is fascinating, the most important point is that in terms of game mechanics magic is no different from any other super power.

 

Unless the GM says otherwise, of course.

[Lord Liaden]

From a game perspective, I heartily agree. But Dino started the thread asking about how things are in the official CU, so I based my response on that.

[assault]

The official CU doesn't say anything about the mechanical side of things either.

 

A few of the published characters use named spells, power frameworks and such, which could be copied into "CU compatible" characters.

 

But that's as far as it goes.

 

Basically, it's open slather.

[TheDarkness]

And with respect, HH, while your explanation for what magic "really" is makes logical sense from a modern perspective, it doesn't really line up with how the real-world traditions themselves describe and explain it.

 

Most magic traditions hold that the world perceivable to most people is separate from or a mask over the spirit world/higher reality, etc. Some philosophies hold that perceivable reality is itself illusory, and sufficient applied individual will can alter that illusion. Spirits, gods, demons etc. aren't just devices to be turned on or off, they're beings who must be negotiated with in one way or another to get them to cooperate. Magical traditions such as Hindu yogic mysticism and Taoist sorcery demand the magician follow physical and mental disciplines to prepare his body, mind, and spirit to channel the "energies" of magic.

 

Bringing all this back to the actual thread topic , there's typically more required to practice magic practically than just intelligence and time to study. In the Champions Universe, while there isn't any sort of genetic key a person has to be born with to learn magic (although it seems a few people do have inborn magical power), someone aspiring to wield the power of a world-class "supermage" would need the rare equivalent of the talent to be a world-class physicist, a world-class musician, and a world-class athlete, all in one.

Actually, Taoist magic does not work this way. It is, in essence, a series of bribes for favors, and it is the nature of this particular being to do this favor for this particular bribe. It is a continuation of the imperial system with emperors and spirits and ancestors playing the role of the recipients of bribes, the hostile official, what have you. The belief in it is not often discussed, because Chinese thought, likely due to Confucius, long ago accepted the idea of doing something as if it was real being more relevant than the belief of its reality.

 

Now, this does not mean some don't believe, but the belief is not important, it is the ability to emulate the exact mental conditions of 'how a supplicant to power x would carry themselves' that are of importance, but it becomes unimportant at any other time. The pantheon of characters is simply too vast to hold a solid 'belief' in any one for any length of time.

 

At best, the belief in constant change would be the one peg they could hang their cloak on, belief wise, but it doesn't really require belief, since things do tend to change. It is entirely in the nature of taoist mysticism to one day be totally about this immortal, and the next to not even consider them at all important.

[Lord Liaden]

The official CU doesn't say anything about the mechanical side of things either.

 

A few of the published characters use named spells, power frameworks and such, which could be copied into "CU compatible" characters.

 

But that's as far as it goes.

 

Basically, it's open slather.

 

To that, I would just refer you to p. 72 of The Mystic World, the source book describing the occult side of the CU. Although the sidebar from that page is probably worth transcribing here:

 

"Mystical power is not impersonal or ethically neutral. A gun does not care who pulls the trigger. The gods and spirits who dominate the supernatural world, however, care a great deal who uses their power. Those who attempt sorcery without proper training and discipline become unwitting puppets -- controlled by forces with their own passions and goals, that do not care about human life, happiness, or freedom.

 

I would sooner hand out loaded pistols on a playground than publish the true secrets of magic. The results would be less bloody."

 

 -- Alajos Veszprem, Trismegistus Council member

[assault]

 

To that, I would just refer you to p. 72 of The Mystic World, the source book describing the occult side of the CU. Although the sidebar from that page is probably worth transcribing here:

 

"Mystical power is not impersonal or ethically neutral. A gun does not care who pulls the trigger. The gods and spirits who dominate the supernatural world, however, care a great deal who uses their power. Those who attempt sorcery without proper training and discipline become unwitting puppets -- controlled by forces with their own passions and goals, that do not care about human life, happiness, or freedom.

 

I would sooner hand out loaded pistols on a playground than publish the true secrets of magic. The results would be less bloody."

 

 -- Alajos Veszprem, Trismegistus Council member

 

OK, there's more detail than I remembered.

 

Personally, I'd be as likely to play someone who wears a magic hat as some Big Magic School graduate.

 

And they'd have a mean right hook, which they would use at every opportunity.

[Lord Liaden]

Actually, Taoist magic does not work this way. It is, in essence, a series of bribes for favors, and it is the nature of this particular being to do this favor for this particular bribe. It is a continuation of the imperial system with emperors and spirits and ancestors playing the role of the recipients of bribes, the hostile official, what have you. The belief in it is not often discussed, because Chinese thought, likely due to Confucius, long ago accepted the idea of doing something as if it was real being more relevant than the belief of its reality.

 

Now, this does not mean some don't believe, but the belief is not important, it is the ability to emulate the exact mental conditions of 'how a supplicant to power x would carry themselves' that are of importance, but it becomes unimportant at any other time. The pantheon of characters is simply too vast to hold a solid 'belief' in any one for any length of time.

 

At best, the belief in constant change would be the one peg they could hang their cloak on, belief wise, but it doesn't really require belief, since things do tend to change. It is entirely in the nature of taoist mysticism to one day be totally about this immortal, and the next to not even consider them at all important.

 

The concepts aren't mutually exclusive. Taoist magic utilizes talismans, particularly written ones, to direct the flow of ch'i, the cosmic force suffusing all things and beings, in various ways. But in legend Taoist master magicians attained extraordinary levels of personal ch'i through meditation, diet, medicines, and other means, which they channel into transforming the world around them.

[TheDarkness]

 

The concepts aren't mutually exclusive. Taoist magic utilizes talismans, particularly written ones, to direct the flow of ch'i, the cosmic force suffusing all things and beings, in various ways. But in legend Taoist master magicians attained extraordinary levels of personal ch'i through meditation, diet, medicines, and other means, which they channel into transforming the world around them.

The key difference lies in the value of belief. A way to illustrate this would be the Hungry Ghost ritual, which is done in both Taoism and Buddhism, who heavily influenced each other.

 

Using the Buddhist version. It is one of the few Buddhist rituals where the person leading the procession faces the audience, instead of the altar of Buddhas at the front. The importance and meaning of this to this discussion I'll get to.

 

First, some background.

 

Tradition requires that families sweep the graves of dead family members, and make offerings to them. This often gets titled 'ancestor worship', but this is problematic, as it applies a foreign concept of worship and misses many of the actual reasons for this ritual, especially the view that expressing positive qualities is transformative, and failure to express them towards those closest to one, family, is a huge loss.

 

On the more mystical side, it was held that those dead who had no family to make offerings, or whose families failed to do so, wandered as 'hungry ghosts', forever starving with fire and blood and gore pouring from their mouths, and in their hunger, they could only wander the world, causing unrest and harm.

 

This, again, is that common mirror to reality. The starving pouring into an area in reality could and did often bring troubles, not least of which would be overtaxing the food supply and creating more misery.

 

The Hungry Ghost ritual is a massive and long ritual attended by many. There are great mounds of food in offering to these ghosts. But, remember, their hunger is infinite.

 

Now, back to the importance of the one heading the ritual facing the audience with their back to the altar of buddhas. The fundamental principles of what an effective performance of this ritual entails would be consistent with Taoist performances, with only different views on what mental state is achieved by those leading and those viewing.

 

The one facing the audience will always be one of the most experienced monks. They are required to 'take the mental state' of a particular buddha.

 

Now, this is not to be confused with 'having Christ within me' of TV evangelists, which tend to have no set of criterion for what that entails.

 

To 'take the mental state' of that buddha, there is a long and detailed list of what that entails. There are a host of meditations and contemplations done over years to practice the assumption of those aspects in more and more complex ways for longer and longer periods.

 

Even each detail, like 'compassion', is broken down into endless sub-points. The Buddhas must express not simple compassion, but a compassion that recognizes the strains of cause and effect, samsara, for what they are, and so attain and express an effective compassion.

 

In order to become a buddha for the ritual, one does not try to feel like so and so, they seek a mental state, practiced over years, that is defined by objective criterion.

 

If this i achieved, then the magic is possible. The blessing of the food makes the food effectively infinite, and the hungry ghost's hunger is forever sated. The remaining, finite, portion of food, is then given to the poor.

 

However, if it came out that the monk just believed they were that Buddha, most communities would consider it a scandal(because it invalidates the ritual and the act of compassion at its center), and that monk would be seen as a charlatan, no matter how deep their belief was. Who the buddha is is irrelevant, it is the mind of the buddha that is important, and the buddhas went through long sutras laughing at the concept of "I am me," and "I am this other guy" is no less laughable in context to their practices. That is not the thought of a buddha, and so to think to attain the state of one while saying it is like fishing for trout on Pluto.

 

This is not to say belief plays no role, but that it plays such a small role, and is not anywhere near the center of the practices. The same is true in Taoism and Confucianism. The central tenet of traditional Chinese philosophies and their mystical offshoots is the same, transformation. Not belief in it, the enacting of it. Belief may drive which philosophy one may lead to, but was not viewed as empowering towards the practices themselves.

[Lord Liaden]

I believe (sorry) that we are both saying the same thing, but interpretation of the word, "belief," is what's throwing us off. I'm not talking belief as in religious faith, where if someone has it strongly enough, miraculous things just happen. Everything you've just described highlights that the magician's personal belief in the truth and correctness of his preparations is essential to his magic succeeding, because the mental and spiritual qualities of the magician directly affect the efficacy of his rituals.The laws and forces defined by science don't depend on any user, since they exist separate from him. If someone pushes a button to turn on an electronic device, it's irrelevant whether he understands or even accepts how electric current and binary microchips function; they work regardless.

[assault]

Or if they are wearing the correct kind of hat.

[TheDarkness]

I believe (sorry) that we are both saying the same thing, but interpretation of the word, "belief," is what's throwing us off. I'm not talking belief as in religious faith, where if someone has it strongly enough, miraculous things just happen. Everything you've just described highlights that the magician's personal belief in the truth and correctness of his preparations is essential to his magic succeeding, because the mental and spiritual qualities of the magician directly affect the efficacy of his rituals.The laws and forces defined by science don't depend on any user, since they exist separate from him. If someone pushes a button to turn on an electronic device, it's irrelevant whether he understands or even accepts how electric current and binary microchips function; they work regardless.

 

Chinese philosophy, magic, and religion is a marvelous way to eat up a ton of words to try to get across a point. Sorry I get so lengthy, but there's sometimes no way around it.

 

The moment the monk believes he is doing anything, versus doing it, is a moment of failure. He literally is required to occupy his entire consciousness with a series of emotional and intellectual yogas with the express purpose of not having the slightest chance of thinking anything else, including his belief in it.

 

The entire point of meditation is to differentiate between thoughts that are more like wind, just random responses based on a myriad of things including nervousness over anticipation, and what are viewed as the deeper thought processes. Meditation has no other point in Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism. Meditation allows contemplation, but is not contemplation. Contemplation allows action, but is not action. Action disturbs realities one accepted in contemplation, and thus leads to meditation to regain calm, contemplation to process the new information of the contemplated versus the real results, which leads to more action. Samsara is nirvana, cause and effect is the cause of suffering and the solution in Chinese Buddhism.

 

In this case, let's say compassion is the mindset(which would be way too simple, but I don't want to add more). Looking out and feeling compassion is what they are supposed to be doing. The moment they believe in anything, they stop doing what they are supposed to be doing. Further, they enter into realization that they just surmised an I who believes, an object of belief, and an arbitrary value to that belief, and thus extinguished the depth of compassion possible through seeing no separation between the compassionate one and the one who they feel compassion for. That's a no-no, strictly and expressly something they train long hours for long years to avoid.

 

For Taoists, it would be observance of reality free of preferences based on assuming past cases and current situations are the same. For Confucians it would be observance of proper conduct for proper reasons with benevolent mindsets. But the relation between meditation, contemplation, and action is the same for all three, and is the foundation of all philosophical and mystical thought in China. As such, the beliefs are viewed almost as irrelevant in practice. It is not believing in the teaching that provides power, it is enacting the teaching without distraction, including the distraction of considering the truth value of the beliefs.

 

Confucius made the point most famously, saying it's not important if the gods were real, only that offering was made as if they were.

 

Now, in that case, we could say, see, he, during that ritual, believed. But, there are two problems with this. The first is, that belief was less important than attaining the mindset of belief, and was still not the primary goal. Decorum. Practicing decency in all things, including how one would approach possibly imaginary beings, was good practice. Second, that's just one ritual that may or not focus on a mindset of belief. Most do not. It simply is not central to these systems, it comes up here and now, nothing more. All of their rituals put aside the question of belief entirely, and are largely involved adoptions of conscious states each groups trains, and their efficacy is removed from questions of belief.

 

Short version: the power of magic in the eastern tradition stems from the adoption of a mindset appropriate to the ritual, without interruption. The means to this was not belief, but practice of meditation, contemplation, and action in relation to that mindset until the practitioner had an informed and disciplined understanding of that mindset's influences and pitfalls in the real world. Belief may have been why they chose their discipline, but the SOURCE of any power was tied to a mindset undistracted by belief or anything else other than that mindset. Even if belief was the mindset, to believe that believing in that belief would have efficacy would be a break in that belief, and thus, would have no efficacy.

 

This is all easier to say in classical Chinese. Aside from the vocabulary. The grammar is super dense.

 

Famous example:

 

The Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao.

 

That is one way the actual text can be read. In reality, a truer translation is:

 

The way that can be way-ified is not the true Way.

 

This further, is meant to be read as:

 

The way that can be turned into a way is not the true Way.

 

OR

 

The way that can be followed as a way is not the true way.

 

OR

 

The way that can be acted upon as a way is not the true way.

 

It's in the opening of Laozi, and it speaks of the accepted fact that one who follows the way is like one moving toward a distant star. You can only approximate, and if you look honestly within and without, you can only grow closer to it. But, if one was at one with the way, it would mean it was not a way, it was simply your nature as part of it.

[Lord Liaden]

Since the essence of everything you're saying lines up with the essence of everything I said, can we just pretend I never mentioned the word, "belief?" Splitting that particular hair so fine is giving me a headache.

[TheDarkness]

Since the essence of everything you're saying lines up with the essence of everything I said, can we just pretend I never mentioned the word, "belief?" Splitting that particular hair so fine is giving me a headache.

Sorry, I'm accustomed to Taoist texts, and they always split hairs so fine that everyone's head hurts. Agreed.

 

Ooh, I feel doubly bad, because I just reread your post and see what you mean. Sorry!

[TheDarkness]

On a lighter note, for a little lighter NSFW reading on the wacky hijinks of the mystical Taoists(versus the philosophical Taoists), check out the old cult known as the Heavenly Masters.

 

In some ways, they are a good basis for what Taoist magic backstories include, aside from the, uh, more late night cable aspects. Usually, there is an immortal spirit conveying secrets. Sometimes an albino or dwarf, occasionally a dwarf albino.

[steriaca]

All this magic talk reminds me of a quote. "Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda.