Does magic in the Champions Universe require talent?

[DShomshak]

Gha, I don’t have time to read the entire thread, but I’ll toss this bit in anyway.

 

Getting back to the OP’s question: No, the Champions Universe does not assume that people need some special inborn gift to learn and use magic. However, it also doesn’t forbid you to make a character who is born with “The Power” or whatever you want to call it. In proper comic-book fashion, every imaginable model of magic is simultaneously true, or at least available for character creation.

 

(And note that the sidebar quoted from The Mystic World is IC. Individual practitioners in the CU might have strong -- and limited -- views about what's real and what limits there may be.)

 

And boy howdy, people IRL have come up with a whole lot of models for magic. (Shall we call them “paradigms,” as White Wolf’s Mage: The Ascension does? No, I don’t feel that pretentious today.)

 

One African tribe — the Azande, IIRC (and I read this more than 20 years ago, so please don't hold me to every detail) — has an interesting set-up in that it believes in both inborn and learned magic. Like many cultures around the world, the Azande believe in witches. More precisely, they believe in people who possess a spiritual power to cause harm that anthropologists translate as “witchcraft” or “the Evil Eye.” The Azande believe that people are born with this power; in fact that witches actually have an extra organ in their body that other people lack, and this enables witches to inflict curses on other people. A witch doesn’t even have to know he’s cursed another person.

 

Witchcraft as mutant power, if you will. (And the story possibilities for Champions should be obvious.)

 

But witches aren’t the only people who do magic. (Or something anthropologists classify as magic.) The Azande also have professional oracles, or “witch doctors,” who diagnose when a person has been the target of witchcraft and identify the witch who caused it. This magic is learned.

 

Fortunately, the Azande take a relatively mild attitude to their witches. Once identified, a witch can remove the curse by apologizing to the victim, and that’s supposed to be the end of it. Many cultures do not let accused witches off so easily.

 

(Curses can also be the result of sorcerers, ghosts, demons, etc. But the Azande attitude toward witchcraft is most relevant for this discussion.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[Cassandra]

It really depends on a persons Midi-chlorian count.

[Cassandra]

Magic in a superhero universe comes in two forms.  One is inherent magically abilities which take the form of superpowers along the lines of being a mutant or an alien.  They are the source of the power, but no devices is necessary.  Their might be a need to speak the spell or use gestures, a la Isis, Zatanna, or Scarlet Witch.

 

The other type of magic involves a focus of some sort.  A magic spell book works like either a VPP or a Multipower depending on the flexibility the character has in wielding their magic.  Other devices has a specific purpose, like Wonder Woman's Magic Lasso or Doctor Strange's Cloak of Levitation.  Some devices are used to transforms the character into a magic powered being such as Doctor Fate's Helmet (spirit that tries to take over your mind optional).

[Greywind]

Kent Nelson was a rather adept sorcerer without the Helm of Nabu.

[Lord Liaden]

Conceptually, comics Dr. Strange is very much a normal (albeit gifted) man who has studied and trained to master magic spells. Anyone with sufficient talent, intellect and will could do the same. Although Strange does utilize a variety of magic artifacts, he has many abilities that require no appurtenances. But the power he commands is all external; his spells either draw on the raw magic in the world (for many general but lower-powered effects), or on the power and qualities of extra-dimensional magic entities (for more powerful but specific defined effects).

[TheDarkness]

Conceptually, comics Dr. Strange is very much a normal (albeit gifted) man who has studied and trained to master magic spells. Anyone with sufficient talent, intellect and will could do the same. Although Strange does utilize a variety of magic artifacts, he has many abilities that require no appurtenances. But the power he commands is all external; his spells either draw on the raw magic in the world (for many general but lower-powered effects), or on the power and qualities of extra-dimensional magic entities (for more powerful but specific defined effects).

Yes, I tend to think of him as the penultimate sort of "magic by understanding" wizard.

[bigdamnhero]

"Mystical power is not impersonal or ethically neutral. A gun does not care who pulls the trigger. The gods and spirits who dominate the supernatural world, however, care a great deal who uses their power. Those who attempt sorcery without proper training and discipline become unwitting puppets -- controlled by forces with their own passions and goals, that do not care about human life, happiness, or freedom.

 

I would sooner hand out loaded pistols on a playground than publish the true secrets of magic. The results would be less bloody."

 

 -- Alajos Veszprem, Trismegistus Council member

That coincides well with one of my favorite quotes from way back in Doctor Strange #5 (1974) when Silver Dagger steals the Eye of Agamotto tries to use it against Strange:

 

"The Eye is not a gun, answerable only to him who holds it! It is a conduit for any who understands it. And I am a Sorcerer Supreme, a man of knowledge, while you are only a man of learning! You think magic is no more than obscure phrases and arcane gestures - a recipe to be read and applied. Such a belief may take you far, Dagger. But not as far as I have gone!"  [mystic mike drop]

 

It seems to me in most superhero comics (and therefore in the CU) there are two types of magic. The first is ritual magic consisting of "obscure phrases and arcane gestures" that just about anyone can learn with practice. In one of the Dresden Files* books, IIRC Harry describes them as the spiritual equivalent of vending machines: you put your quarter in and you get your Coke out, no understanding required. Hence in every horror movie ever where a bunch of kids read from a Spooky Old Tome and wind up summoning something unpleasant. The power comes from the ritual/object/trapped demon/whatever, so no innate talent for magic is needed.

 

The second type requires drawing on the magic within you, and/or tapping into the magic of the world around you. That requires not only training, but usually some sort of innate talent, and is frequently portrayed as something that not everyone is capable of learning.

 

Whether or not there's any practical, mechanical difference between those two types of magic depends on your campaign. Clearly there are superheroic-level characters who fall into both camps.

 

As for belief (or whatever other word you want to substitute for it) that does generally seem to be one of the fundamental differences between science and magic. To quote the TV shirt: Science works whether you believe in it or not. If you give a vaccine to a creationist, it still works exactly the same whether or not they think evolution is a lie. Gravity affects a Flat Earther exactly the same as everyone else. But Magic generally seems to require you have some belief that it will work or else it doesn't. Tho in Real Life, that usually seems to be used as a dodge to explain why mystic powers always seem to stop working when a skeptic tries to measure or test them in a controlled environment. How relevant that would be a world where people like Witchcraft and Talisman are common knowledge and so everyone has cause to believe that magic exists is another question.

 

 

* Technically neither superheros, nor a comic, I know.

[Matt the Bruins]

I think the fact that people like the published members of the Circle of the Scarlet Moon have personal mystical powers implies that anyone with the right mindset and enough time devoted to occult study can develop some ability to work magic. It might not be wide in variety or scope or strong in intensity, but sufficient scholarship and practice would open the door to minor wonders. Those with substantial inherent talent, or the favor of the gods/spirits/what have you, are able to progress much further.

[Lord Liaden]

That's actually a really good example, Matt, because the description of the Circle of the Scarlet Moon emphasizes that most of its members don't wield personal magical power close to that of a superheroic (or villainous) magician. Their most potent spells might have comparable Active Points, but require lengthy ritual preparations and specially prepared materials to cast. They're probably representative of the level of mystic mastery the average person can achieve.

 

Witchcraft of the Champions, and her villainous twin sister Talisman, are children of Scarlet Moon members. They both possess much greater skill, but were the products of a special ritual before their conception to imbue them with such potential.

[Christopher]

Anyone else here Watch the Dr. Strange Marvel Movie yet?

As I understand the magic in there:

Anyone can learn magic. How they channel it (combatively or to stop being a paraphlegic) is up to them.

 

But there is also the source of artifact magic. Dr. Strange has the cloak of levitation. Quite a partical tool if you often enter dimension without clear gravity/very deep drops.

I asume everyone can levitate, superjump or even open a sling-ring portal without the proper artifact. But doing takes either extrodinary amount of practice in that particular are. And/or lenght rituals to prepare. And of course considerable concentration/unbroken concentration (like turning back time). Or as the Mordo there said:
"Some spells are so demanding, we can not wield them directly. We instead put them into Artifacts."

 

"Shift to Mirror Dimension" and the creation of Shields and Weapons is one of the few things one does not need artifacts for.

[freakboy6117]

OK not sure if i actually posted it to my UK hero project but in my world i've a fairly complete set of magical rules i borrow heavily from British and the better american urban fantasy/paranormal lit so bear with me.

 

all magic comes from accessing power from other dimensions there are dimensions above ours and dimensions Below not that directions have real meaning but just as a rule of thumb. up and down are basically euphemisms for energy states up is higher down is lower so if you summon something from the lower dimension its going to be hungry and if you summon from above its going to be Powerful 

 

ritual practitioners use their own  minds to open the path to the other dimensions and then chance the resulting energies through their own bodies it turns out it is possible to do this with computers starting the very tightly controlled secrets of computational Demonology.

 

the downside of doing this is two fold firstly your opening an access to beings inimical to human life they are hungry and they want to feed not just on the energy of the physical universe but the even more potent energy of the astral/spiritual plane. the second is more prosaic channeling that energy damages the human brain theories abound tiny inter dimensional parasites eating neurons dimensional rifts in the casters brain . this leads to what has been described as K syndrome or 'hyperthaumaturgical degradation 

 

now talented practitioners come in two flavors those with the sight and those of the blood the sight lets you see magic your more attuned to higher and lower planes that link to ours you can see ghosts past glamours see the energy of wards etc.

 

The blood is a gift that certain magical bloodlines carry perhaps a mutation or an ancient spell those of the blood heal differently from normal humans all of their cells regenerate nearly perfectly they can live centuries and the degenerative effects of magic that would normally drive a practitioner into Dementia and death don't apply as they can cast powerful spells without hurting themselves those of the blood tend to be more powerful with those with both gifts being the most powerful wizards around.

 

lastly all superpowers can be described as magic its an ability to harness energy from other dimensions because the barriers between dimensions have been weakened in the 20th century those with the right genes or in the right place or with materials that have fallen through etc can draw energy from these other planes and attain abilities beyond what the normal laws of physics of our universe should allow.

 

 

forum likes for the first person to name all three urban fantasy series i've based these rules on.

[bigdamnhero]

Yeah, the Circle of the Scarlet Moon is a good example of what I called "vending machine magic" above: anyone with access to the right grimoires, etc can with enough study and practice learn basic ritual magic. While membership does seem to run in the family, that seems more about inheritance and only trusting family, rather than a specific talent that's passed down through certain bloodlines, which seems more the case with the Sylvestris and Vandaleurs.

[Matt the Bruins]

Conceptually, comics Dr. Strange is very much a normal (albeit gifted) man who has studied and trained to master magic spells. Anyone with sufficient talent, intellect and will could do the same. Although Strange does utilize a variety of magic artifacts, he has many abilities that require no appurtenances. But the power he commands is all external; his spells either draw on the raw magic in the world (for many general but lower-powered effects), or on the power and qualities of extra-dimensional magic entities (for more powerful but specific defined effects).

The talent aspect is a big factor though. Despite his lack of leanings toward magic until middle age, it seems Strange was one of the two most naturally gifted magicians born on the planet in the 20th century (Elizabeth Twoyoungmen being the other) and with sufficient study became capable of tapping and channeling more occult power than anyone since the Ancient One and Kaluu (both born in 14th century Tibet). The Ancient One and Baron Mordo were aware of that potential when he was young, and interfered in his life surreptitiously long before he learned his first spell. Wong and his father Hamir the Hermit both studied at the Ancient One's feet long before Strange and are highly knowledgeable about the mystic arts, but have nowhere near that sort of power.

[rjcurrie]

 

To that, I would just refer you to p. 72 of The Mystic World, the source book describing the occult side of the CU. Although the sidebar from that page is probably worth transcribing here:

 

"Mystical power is not impersonal or ethically neutral. A gun does not care who pulls the trigger. The gods and spirits who dominate the supernatural world, however, care a great deal who uses their power. Those who attempt sorcery without proper training and discipline become unwitting puppets -- controlled by forces with their own passions and goals, that do not care about human life, happiness, or freedom.

 

I would sooner hand out loaded pistols on a playground than publish the true secrets of magic. The results would be less bloody."

 

 -- Alajos Veszprem, Trismegistus Council member

 

 

To be honest, this is the opinion of one council member. We do not know if that is truly how the magic of the Hero Universe works or not. It might be true. It might be a useful fiction that magicians maintain to keep dabblers out. And it might matter with one type of magic and not another. I also suspect that some aspects of some magicians' spell-casting are psychological crutches that let them focus their abilities. 

 

In the end, the OP should just do whatever works for them. Their version of the Champions/Hero Universe is never going to be the same as anyone else's anyways.

[Lord Liaden]

In the end, the OP should just do whatever works for them. Their version of the Champions/Hero Universe is never going to be the same as anyone else's anyways.

 

To reiterate, Rod, I completely agree with that. But the OP asked specifically about magic in the Champions Universe, which I took to mean the official published version; so I tried my best to answer on that basis.

[Wardsman]

Yeah, the Circle of the Scarlet Moon is a good example of what I called "vending machine magic" above: anyone with access to the right grimoires, etc can with enough study and practice learn basic ritual magic. While membership does seem to run in the family, that seems more about inheritance and only trusting family, rather than a specific talent that's passed down through certain bloodlines, which seems more the case with the Sylvestris and Vandaleurs.

 

This gets to my theory about Pacters and Clerics.

 

I suspect priests who get their powers bestowed started out as pacters(those who make pacts with supernatural beings).

 

I suspect a lot of those patrons wrote grimoires that give power to those who normally don't. So they have the skill and power to pull them back to Earth after being banished.

[freakboy6117]

Another thought on magical talent is the END reserve and REC portion you could be the greatest and most knowledgeable practitioner in the world but if your personal mana battery is tiny your going to be stuck with enchantment and rituals where you can use other people's energy. Equally a hedge wizard with a small mana battery but a high rec could be more dangerous casting many small but effective spells than a glass Canon wizard who can cast some big Impressive spells but then has to wait to recharge.

[Lord Liaden]

The CU has also already established the precedent for really big magical effects caused by magicians who are less individually powerful working together, like the Circle of the Scarlet Moon conjuring the Hellstone to destroy the Archmage, or the Walpurgisnacht Working which raised the level of magic on Earth and sparked the superhuman era. Besides involving multiple participants (sometimes dozens or more of them), such rituals typically take a long time to conduct, can only be cast on particular dates and times and/or in certain locations, require rare or unique materials often including human sacrifice, and place a terrible strain on the casters which may kill some of them.

[TheQuestionMan]

Magic may have sparked the rise of the superhuman, but the superhuman generated it's own.

 

 

IMOHO

 

 

QM