Making Use of Persuasion

[DasBroot]

 

Alternatively, you could require Persuasion to inherently take extra time. I know that RAW you can recite Hamlet in one phase as a free action, but actual persuasion takes time and back-and-forth interaction where you listen as often as you speak. If baseline persuasion took a minute or ten minutes, then trying to do it in one phase would be at a penalty for rushing. Skill monkeys could do a better rush job than a normal person, but they would no longer walk around with the equivalent of Jedi Mind tricks.

 

You can recite Hamlet ias a free action if it's not relevant to anything, sure, but if you're trying to convince a crowd with it (acting, oratory, etc) then I feel it definitely should fall under the rules that govern complex skill use time, such as computer programming, mechanic, etc.

 

Non-combat skills aren't meant to be used in the combat scale time system - a quick 'what's that behind you?' roll, maybe (though say that out loud - it probably took you two or three segments), but 'Have you ever given thought to what will happen to your loved ones when you pass...." not so much.

[phoenix240]

I think many people really underestimate how much a person can be swayed by effective manipulators and orators. Con men, cult leaders, politicians, etc generally make individuals act outside their best interests, change their minds and even do "stupid" things in real life a great deal. But from an audience perspective its much easier to Armchair quarter back. We have access to information the subjects don't (knowing its fictional story among them), we are under no pressure or stress and not really the target of the attempt at persuasion, manipulation, etc. 

[phoenix240]

I agree with most of Derek's comments - not so sure about Selective, though. Anyone overhearing might also be persuaded, and we've seen lots of situations where someone "persuaded" takes actions that horrify the person who did the persuading.

 

The first jump is always "persuasion is not Mind Control", but it actually is a form of mind control. If a character has a 23- Acrobatics skill (18 stat +10 to the roll), he can accomplish some pretty amazing things. Ditto other skills, like Breakfall. No lock is secure (even a -5 penalty for the most difficult lock is still 18-, 13- with the poorest of improvised tools as well, which is still 83.8% success - each try). Paramedics on a target mere seconds from death is likely(15 BOD reduced to -14 is a -7 penalty, so 16- succeeds).

 

So why can't an incredible Persuasion, Oratory or Charm skill have similarly amazing effects, in their own realm? These are cinematic heroes, after all. If that cinematic "greatest thief in the world" can open the best vault in mere seconds, and our Acrobat can tightrope walk over Niagara Falls on an icy rope doing a cartwheel, why can't our suave super-charmer achieve equally incredible feats?

 

Think, perhaps, of Cyrano De Bergerac's Charm skill, the amazing Oratory of some real world political figures or the Persuasive skill of a cinematic con man. Their targets were often very opposed to taking the actions they are regularly talked into, weren't they? Is a character concept that can shoot the fly off a pig's back from 50 meters away, or one who can cartwheel over an icy tightrope, or one who is virtually undetectable when he chooses not to be seen, or one who regularly makes breakthroughs in various unrelated fields of science REALLY so much more believable and reasonable than a fellow so seductive he can charm the panties off a nun, such an inspiring speechmaker that the initially indifferent crowd will follow him into combat with the local authorities, or so persuasive he can sell ice to the Eskimos and get bluff his way past the guard into the Princess's boudoir?

 

 

You bring up a good point that I've seen come up in many other discussions of similar topics. Social skills to tend to held to higher standards of "realism" than other skills. There seems to generally be more willingness to accept amazing mental and physical feats over social ones. To some degree this may be the potential power of amazing social actions and their scope. Killing a powerful opponent is impressive, potentially converting them  to an ally though is more of a game changer. 

[Durzan Malakim]

I think many people really underestimate how much a person can be swayed by effective manipulators and orators. Con men, cult leaders, politicians, etc generally make individuals act outside their best interests, change their minds and even do "stupid" things in real life a great deal. But from an audience perspective its much easier to Armchair quarter back. We have access to information the subjects don't (knowing its fictional story among them), we are under no pressure or stress and not really the target of the attempt at persuasion, manipulation, etc. 

 

I think this is a case where truth is stranger than fiction. In a super-heroic setting, the villain uses mind control to become the ruler of Campaign City and we nod our heads and say, "Yeah, that's believable." In the real world, a villain uses persuasion to convince someone to vote for them, to strap a bomb to themselves and blow themselves up, or to believe the Earth is flat despite all evidence to the contrary, and we say, "That's way too powerful for a normal person. It would take Mind Control to get someone to do those things."

[Christopher R Taylor]

No, we say it takes mind control because that's what the power does, and you pay the points for that kind of effect.  Persuading someone to do something totally insane and outrageous takes way more than a single roll in a single meeting.  It takes years of indoctrination to get that kind of result, not some single or even a few encounters.  For that kind of efficiency, you pay 5 points/d6 base cost.

[Derek Hiemforth]

No, we say it takes mind control because that's what the power does, and you pay the points for that kind of effect.  Persuading someone to do something totally insane and outrageous takes way more than a single roll in a single meeting.  It takes years of indoctrination to get that kind of result, not some single or even a few encounters.  For that kind of efficiency, you pay 5 points/d6 base cost.

 

Plus, not only does Persuasion require time in order to work (and likely repeated application), but the target is also a conscious actor throughout the process.  So if you were to lead off with something like g3taso's "I want you to make me your sole beneficiary," you would almost certainly not only be met with some variation of "No way!" but you'd also likely never be allowed another attempt, because the person would stay away from you.

 

Mind Control works now.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Persuasion 18-, Halves Normal Persuasion Time (+0), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (19 Active Points)

Heck, hardened could it being a tenaciously held conviction that mental reprogramming on a limited basis can be done. Zealots, like above. 

 

It's up to you and your game and/or GM of course, but I as a GM would totally not let you use Armor-Piercing for this effect. The time that Skills take to use is not a "defense."

 

In my game, you would need to buy Skill Levels with the Limitation Limited Power: Only to Counteract Time Modifiers (-1), plus any other Limitations appropriate to the SFX.  For an example, see the "Superspeed Tasks" example power on CC pg. 211.

 

The levels could be included in the power build, but that's the game element I'd ask you to use.  

[dsatow]

A single instance use of persuasion can have long term fanatical effect dependent on the situation and environment.  Think people who have a change of faith after some "miraculous" event or situation.  In game terms, this was probably a VERY good persuasion roll with heavy bonuses making the roll by some god awful amount.

[Derek Hiemforth]

A single instance use of persuasion can have long term fanatical effect dependent on the situation and environment.  Think people who have a change of faith after some "miraculous" event or situation.  In game terms, this was probably a VERY good persuasion roll with heavy bonuses making the roll by some god awful amount.

 

I would argue that the "miraculous" event or situation significantly softened their previous position related to their faith (or lack thereof) before they were ever subject to Persuasion.  

[phoenix240]

Plus, not only does Persuasion require time in order to work (and likely repeated application), but the target is also a conscious actor throughout the process.  So if you were to lead off with something like g3taso's "I want you to make me your sole beneficiary," you would almost certainly not only be met with some variation of "No way!" but you'd also likely never be allowed another attempt, because the person would stay away from you.

 

Mind Control works now.

 

There is definitely allot of gray area involved based on context and any number of other modifiers. Some truly great cons have been pulled off in a couple or even single meetings. Another thing one could consider is the "normal person" in game/narrative terms could have Mind Control with modifiers that reflects supremely capable sfx. It wouldn't even have to be invisible power effects since there is no Mental Awareness in the 'real' world to detect it. 

 

I'd like to see someone take a stab at a dedicated social resolution system for Hero System one day. 

[IndianaJoe3]

I'd like to see someone take a stab at a dedicated social resolution system for Hero System one day. 

 

There's one in APG2.

[phoenix240]

There's one in APG2.

 

I think I've seen that one. Remember not caring for it unfortunately. 

[Hugh Neilson]

I would argue that the "miraculous" event or situation significantly softened their previous position related to their faith (or lack thereof) before they were ever subject to Persuasion.  

Sure - that's the character using circumstances to his advantage to gain a bonus to the roll. While the beneficiary of that miraculous event is standing there, stunned, the Persuader takes advantage of the situation by suggesting that "The Angels were watching out for you" [or the leprechauns were; or the Flying Spaghetti Monster].

 

Just like a character uses the terrain to gain a Higher Ground advantage in combat,

[Durzan Malakim]

I suspect the game effects and SFX of skills have always been loosely defined so that GMs can choose how important they are in their games. A HERO System game is like a movie with the GM as director.

 

In a superhero action adventure movie, how much screen time do you want to devote to The Prince Charmer (PC*) persuading Unnamed Mook #1 to stop working for Mastermind? The GM might be content adjudicating this interaction with a simple skill roll because the encounter is intended to be nothing more than a minor obstacle on the way to "The Big Action Scene." The game effects might be that the PC can cut to the chase quietly on a success or the Mook raises an alarm if the PC fails. The special effect is Prince Charmer is a really persuasive guy who uses mumble-mumble-hand-waved-movie-magic.

 

However maybe you're game is all about role-playing character-driven moments, and the PC spends an entire scene discussing the henchman's life with Marty Mook (because obviously he needs a name now). After ten minutes of conversation, the PC uses what he's learned from Marty Mook to try and persuade him to come work for him instead. The GM decides Marty is a naturally loyal sort who is also deathly afraid of crossing his super-powered boss. The PC may have his work cut out for him. The game-effects could be the PC gains a new Contact, DNPC, or Summon on a success, or Marty triggers a silent alarm to betray the PC on a failure. The special effect is simple conversation.

 

*Yes, this acronym is intentionally meant to also stand for Player Character.

[g3taso]

Listen To My Voice:  Major Spirit Transform 1d6 (standard effect: 3 points) (Individual Into Devoted Minion), Partial Transform (+1/2) (22 Active Points); Limited Range (-1/4), Extra Time (Delayed Phase, -1/4)

 

This is the "super skill" version of high persuasion. Probably longer than a delayed phase, but it's just for example and represents the talking part.

[Hugh Neilson]

In a superhero action adventure movie, how much screen time do you want to devote to The Prince Charmer (PC*) persuading Unnamed Mook #1 to stop working for Mastermind? The GM might be content adjudicating this interaction with a simple skill roll because the encounter is intended to be nothing more than a minor obstacle on the way to "The Big Action Scene." The game effects might be that the PC can cut to the chase quietly on a success or the Mook raises an alarm if the PC fails. The special effect is Prince Charmer is a really persuasive guy who uses mumble-mumble-hand-waved-movie-magic.

 

However maybe you're game is all about role-playing character-driven moments, and the PC spends an entire scene discussing the henchman's life with Marty Mook (because obviously he needs a name now). After ten minutes of conversation, the PC uses what he's learned from Marty Mook to try and persuade him to come work for him instead. The GM decides Marty is a naturally loyal sort who is also deathly afraid of crossing his super-powered boss. The PC may have his work cut out for him. The game-effects could be the PC gains a new Contact, DNPC, or Summon on a success, or Marty triggers a silent alarm to betray the PC on a failure. The special effect is simple conversation.

To me, the choice of "this resolution is a big deal in my game" versus "that one, not so much" is a compelling reason to have a more robust (combat-like) resolution mechanic and a less robust (skill rolls; opposed rolls) resolution mechanic. Flick the switch for the desired focus in your game.

 

A game of court intrigue might well use the robust Interaction/Social resolution mechanics, and resolve combat (a brawl, or a duel) with opposed skill rolls, because combat is not the focus - social interaction is.

[indy523]

I've never used Persuasion in Hero, but I was asked to check it out. I submit the following skill and skill level:

Persuasion 18-, Usable By Other (+1/4), Persistent (+1/2), Area Of Effect (2" Radius; +1), Selective (+1/4) (39 Active Points)

+10 Persuasion

 

I'm seeing this as a Palpatine-style vizier or diplomat, someone able to persuade someone of anything. As I understand it, at normal difficulty this character should make "impossible" persuasion rolls with no chance of failure. So what can a player do with this kind of power?  I can see this as being the source of all sorts of minor perks as well, ranging from comped drinks and stays at hotels, always getting the best price, virtual immunity to any speeding tickets (if I can talk to the officer) and so forth. 

House Rule:  If you leave he severed head of a horse in the bed of your target the night before there is no offer the target can refuse you!

[Durzan Malakim]

I know it was you indy523. You who broke my heart. You broke my heart.

[dmjalund]

House Rule:  If you leave he severed head of a horse in the bed of your target the night before there is no offer the target can refuse you!

people seem to forget, that the core of the threat is that it was HIS prize racehorse