Star Wars 8 complaint box

[Hugh Neilson]

11 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

Lifting the tons of rock to allow the Resistance to exit the cave seems pretty advanced also.

 

11 hours ago, Starlord said:

Particularly considering how Luke failed to lift an X-Wing

 

Yoda expected Luke to lift the X-Wing at his very early stage of training.  Maybe Rey doesn't give up and go sulk when something does not work the first try.  Or maybe, when lives are at stake, there's a bit more adrenaline and incentive to make it happen.  Or perhaps, given Luke knew absolutely nothing of the Force when he met Obi-Wan, his own disbelief held him back - he did pretty well after he saw Yoda do it.  Rey, on the other hand, grew up in (I believe) an environment where people talked about Jedi (Luke in particular), given that his return was viewed as a rallying point for the people.  She knew the Force could move that kind of weight, so she was not held back by her own disbelief.

[Pattern Ghost]

That's a pretty good distinction. Not one I'd credit the filmmakers with coming up with, but good enough for a No Prize.

[Badger]

12 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

Lifting the tons of rock to allow the Resistance to exit the cave seems pretty advanced also.

 

I forgot about that.  I think my eye-rolling had put me into a coma by then

[Clonus]

44 minutes ago, Badger said:

 

I forgot about that.  I think my eye-rolling had put me into a coma by then

 

And yet it isn't particularly advanced.  There's particular skill or finesse involved.  Just muscle.  And Kylo Ren and Rey have overwhelming amounts of muscle just from winning the genetic lottery.  

[archer]

On 2/27/2019 at 9:04 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Does Luke say "Kylo faced all of my other students together, straight up, and beat them fair and square"?  As Clonus notes, he used ambush tactics.  I would still put Kylo as Luke's most advanced student.

 

When in RoTJ is it mentioned just how long Luke was trained by Yoda, or how much time had passed between Empire and RoTJ?  Yoda told Luke his training was complete, but for his need to face Vader - that seems like more than a week or two since Empire.  Lando had time to infiltrate Jabba's guards, and Leia to establish her phony Bounty Hunter identity.  That did not likely happen overnight.  I think Luke had considerable training between Empire and RoTJ.  And his training was full-time with no distractions (what else is there to do on Dagobah?) with a 700+ year old Jedi Master who was not exactly taking it easy on him.  A more motivated student would also be tough to envision.

 

 

I know that the Expanded Universe timeline doesn't mean much anymore. But it shows A New Hope then three years later is Empire then ROTJ as one year after that.

[Hugh Neilson]

5 hours ago, archer said:

 

I know that the Expanded Universe timeline doesn't mean much anymore. But it shows A New Hope then three years later is Empire then ROTJ as one year after that.

 

Assuming we accept that, Luke has time for a year of uninterrupted training.  No breaks, and a very motivated master and student.  Was Luke training Kylo one on one (no - he had other students) constantly (probably not) with the pressure that the Galaxy depended on their success?

 

Let's take this one step further.  Why do we assume Luke was a great Jedi?  He was the ONLY Jedi - have to work with what we have.  The only other Jedi in the OT were Ben (who was avoiding use of his Jedi powers for fear of being noticed by Vader or Palpatine) and Yoda (who was dying of old age, and on the outskirts of the galaxy, so we never saw him in action, only teaching Luke).  On the other side, we had Vader and Palpatine, who we assume were supremely powerful.

 

But Palpatine was also getting old.  To what extent was Vader's Force power restricted by his injuries, armor and cybernetics?  Palpatine was ready to trade him in for Luke.  Vader didn't beat Palpatine by force power and skill, but by surprise and rapid physical force.  Luke didn't beat Palpatine at all - like infant Harry Potter, the love of a parent saved him.

 

We were always told Vader was a great Jedi/Sith, strong in the Force, but what evidence did we have?  Who else was there?  How do his abilities compare to the Jedi in the prequels?  For that matter, Anakin didn't seem like he was at the same level as the major prequel Jedi, much less some uber-Jedi.  "Always two there are" - so how is that?  I'd say that either the apprentice becomes strong enough to take out and replace the master, or the master ensures the apprentice dies before he can usurp the master.  That seems like it would motivate limiting training (so the apprentice is not ready to take over before the Master's life, or at least career, is over naturally anyway), putting a powerful apprentice in harm's way (Palpatine went through a few) or just replacing the apprentice (was Palpatine subtly backing Luke in the duel with Vader on the second Death Star?  He seemed to want Luke to kill Vader and turn, not be killed by Vader).

 

Is dueling the best, much less only, measure of a Jedi's power or connection with the Force, or is it ancillary?

[Badger]

Well, I am a strong critic of the Rule of Two to begin with.  I guess it worked, if we want to be technical, but Darth Bane got squat for its instituting (which I love ).  But, their victory, would be like if a couple Knights Templar* popped up and took leadership of the EU.  I mean yeah, I guess it would be a success story for them.  But, sucked for the ones the French executed (and the nameless rabble that pilfered through history unnoticed through the centuries.)

 

*Just trying to think of a quick analogy, please no "but the freemasons" comparisons.

[archer]

8 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Assuming we accept that, Luke has time for a year of uninterrupted training.  No breaks, and a very motivated master and student.  Was Luke training Kylo one on one (no - he had other students) constantly (probably not) with the pressure that the Galaxy depended on their success?

 

 

We know almost nothing about the Disney crap. There's 40-ish years of unaccounted for time. Luke might have been deeply involved in running the government/military/resistance or he could have been a dedicated Jedi teacher. Luke might have trained an apprentice for 20 years, have him become a master, then that guy was in charge of training at least some of the recruits. 

 

We also don't know when Kylo started training, when his training with Luke's group stopped, when he might have started his Sith training, or how old Kylo is at the moment.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable that formal Jedi training started at the age of 3-4 since we saw that in the prequel films and in the Expanded Universe. If we accept that and Kylo is supposed to be around 25...well, then he's been a pathetic student for somebody whether Luke or the Sith.

 

 

[Badger]

well, I imagine the Disney sequels are happening in a remote part of the galaxy, by largely forgotten factions (Resistance being a broken away part of the New Republic, First Order broken off from the Imperial Remnant)

 

I also imagine the rest of the Imperial Remnant when hearing mention of the First Order break out in derisive laughter.

 

Note: Oh, and the reason the New Republic didn't come to asissts the Resistane on Planet Salt Flat was because they realized the Rebellion's cause would be better served letting those incomptetents die (damn you Rey).  

 

2nd Note:Havent figured out why Ackbar would bother with the Resistance to Intelligence, yet.  Poor Ackbar.

[Hugh Neilson]

4 hours ago, archer said:

 

We know almost nothing about the Disney crap. There's 40-ish years of unaccounted for time. Luke might have been deeply involved in running the government/military/resistance or he could have been a dedicated Jedi teacher. Luke might have trained an apprentice for 20 years, have him become a master, then that guy was in charge of training at least some of the recruits. 

 

We also don't know when Kylo started training, when his training with Luke's group stopped, when he might have started his Sith training, or how old Kylo is at the moment.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable that formal Jedi training started at the age of 3-4 since we saw that in the prequel films and in the Expanded Universe. If we accept that and Kylo is supposed to be around 25...well, then he's been a pathetic student for somebody whether Luke or the Sith.

 

 

 

I'm not sure the intent is that 40 years have passed in the Disney U.  That's enough time for Han and Leia to have adult grandkids.  As you note, we do not have details of the intervening years, so why would we assume Luke reinstated a "take the toddlers from their parents to train them as Jedi" regime?  Ignoring the likelihood of Leia and Han going for that for their kid, the old Order had infrastructure.  Who would be watching over all those kids?  Feeding them?  Cleaning up after them?  I also suspect that the Rebublic Jedi kids had to learn things besides Jedi powers, which makes Jedi Training one class in the day, not full-time training in Mind Tricks and Lightsaber Dueling..

[Hugh Neilson]

I suppose it's also possible the whole OT is the way Han and Luke told the story to their kids, and it's really the prequels and VII and VIII that reflect the real SW Universe.  ?

[Badger]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I suppose it's also possible the whole OT is the way Han and Luke told the story to their kids, and it's really the prequels and VII and VIII that reflect the real SW Universe.  ?

 

It just so happens, I have been training a hellhound pack for Ewokhunting purposes.  Don't make me glue an Ewok pelt to your (bleep) and set them loose, they need to get use to live prey.