Improving Intimidation

[Duke Bushido]

39 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Duke I went back to the original post and yeah the Poster was talking about NCM as a cap. I missed it the first round I read it.

 

I see!  Thank you, N-B; 

 

I also missed that the first time through.  Very kind of you, Sir.

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Finally, please stop assuming that anyone who disagrees with you, or fails to follow your "logic", is doing so tactically, and just to annoy you or defuse your arguments.  It not only gets in the way of reasonable discourse, it's just tiresome.

 

Thanks, Hugh.  I spent fifteen minutes sitting here (and waiting for the washing machine to buzz) reading and re-reading what I had said trying to figure out just what the heck I had said to set off that particular accusation.  

[Lucius]

4 hours ago, Christopher said:

How was that in question???

Both limit how high you can buy a stat, just with different caps and different mechanics.

 

 

The Normal Characteristic Maximum rule does not in any way shape or form "limit how high you can buy a stat."

 

Should I break out the Florist Friars again?

 

8 hours ago, Christopher said:

 

You are free to bend the rules however you like. YOu can indeed ignore the optional rule of "Normal Characteristics Maxima" entirely. But then you have to deal with all the fallout from that too.

 

 

The only fallout I have noticed is fewer headaches and less nonsense. I absolutely encourage anyone and everyone to completely ignore this optional pain in the neck. It's a flintmobile.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Abnormal palindromedary characteristics

[Ninja-Bear]

To be fair though, how many times on these boards has NCM as a HARD Cap been misunderstood? AND by long time players in some cases?

[Hugh Neilson]

I take Lucius' point.  Back in the 5e days, I toyed with a Fantasy character shelling out 90 points to buy a 30 DEX in a 150 point fantasy game.  That leaves 60 points for other stats, weapon familiarities, a few skills, etc. and he has a 4 SPD, 10 OCV, 10 DCV. 

 

NCM does not prevent this - it only increases the cost.  In so doing, I suggest it is also tacit approval that anyone willing to pay the cost can freely buy those "legendary" stats.  The same 90 points would buy a 60 STR, which came along with a base 12 PD, as well as hefty STUN and REC.  And 60 points left over to buy other stuff.

 

It seems much more straightforward to set campaign parameters, whether those be that characters are normal, albeit heroic, so GM permission after very close scrutiny of both balance issues and backstory justification in the campaign will be required for anyone exceeding those "normal human" caps (or maybe even for anyone with more than one or two stats at or close to the max).  Alternatively, maybe the campaign expects Legendary Heros, so all PCs will be entitled to buy one, or a few, stats into the Legendary range, but with scrutiny to ensure no one steps on another PC's schtick.

 

NCM is another one of those (optional) rules that tosses out the "you get what you pay for" over-rule of Hero.

[Christopher]

On 1/17/2019 at 12:51 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

 I thought we were discussing pricing.  Now we seem to be discussing NCM and campaign caps. 

 

On 1/14/2019 at 1:58 AM, LordQulex said:

One of my PCs wants to improve their intimidation, which normally isn't too rough but in this case, I can't find much in the book aside from the obvious solution of increasing your presence. In a heroic level with normal human characteristic maxima, that's kind of expensive.

 

[Christopher]

23 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

NCM does not prevent this - it only increases the cost.  In so doing, I suggest it is also tacit approval that anyone willing to pay the cost can freely buy those "legendary" stats.  The same 90 points would buy a 60 STR, which came along with a base 12 PD, as well as hefty STUN and REC.  And 60 points left over to buy other stuff.

And in this case NCM pevents buying certain broken combinations of stats, like 30 DEX + 60 STR.

Same way a hard cap below 30/60 would do.

 

NCM is just a soft cap - nothing more, nothing less.

Campaign caps are just hard caps - nothing more, nothing less

[Hugh Neilson]

14 hours ago, Christopher said:

And in this case NCM pevents buying certain broken combinations of stats, like 30 DEX + 60 STR.

Same way a hard cap below 30/60 would do.

 

NCM is just a soft cap - nothing more, nothing less.

Campaign caps are just hard caps - nothing more, nothing less

 

If a 30 DEX or a 60 STR would not be broken in isolation, why would they be broken together?  And if they would, why does the guy who does  not want to combine them have to pay extra for one or the other?

 

Hercules must pay (under NCM) 60 points for a 45 STR.  Merlin pays the same 60 points for a 12d6 Blast.  Which of them will be more effective, assuming they spend all of their other points identically (or at least similarly, Herc on HTH skill levels and Merlin on magic skill levels; Herc has natural defenses and Merlin's are provided by a spell;  for example)?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Hercules must pay (under NCM) 50 points for a 30 STR. 

How did you get this value?  I'm not matching it. 

[Toxxus]

57 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

How did you get this value?  I'm not matching it. 

 

At first I thought it was a typo and he meant 60 STR, but then that didn't work out either.  Nor did 30 DEX using NCM.

 

The point is still reasonably made though.  If a guy spends 50 points on X instead of 50 points on Y - Does it really break game balance?

 

My general thought - Yes.  Some stat ranges - depending on the campaign - can absolutely obliterate any sense of balance at the gaming table.

 

Keeping a group of players happy with game balance requires that both the reality of the balance and the perception of the balance be in a good place. 

Each Hero must feel like their particular strengths and skills are just as important to the groups success as those of the other players.

 

If StatMan does double the damage of his counter-parts while being nigh invulnerable and faster to boot then it will be difficult to keep SkillMonkey and MagicMarven happy unless the campaign throws obstacles that favor their abilities over the raw combat power of StatMan fairly often.

 

In my Fantasy Hero campaign I set hard caps on primary stats at 15 and - at their current power levels - my players can have two stats in the 16-20 range or one stat in the 21-23 range.  As the campaign progresses I'll raise the caps until it's just the standard NCM.

So far so good.  Everyone has found their niche.  We have crowd control elemental martial arts guy, spirit shaman brick guy, melt-your-face-magic-lady (my wife) and a guy playing a recreation of the Witcher.

 

[Christopher]

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If a 30 DEX or a 60 STR would not be broken in isolation, why would they be broken together? 

Seriously? Is that actually a question you just asked? Do you want to reformulate the question to sound sensible?

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

And if they would, why does the guy who does  not want to combine them have to pay extra for one or the other?

Because even one stat that high is already a balance issue?

 

But adding two balance issues can result in a bigger balance issue. That is why "Yield" sign powers still have STOP sign power modifiers.

 

7 hours ago, Toxxus said:

If StatMan does double the damage of his counter-parts while being nigh invulnerable and faster to boot then it will be difficult to keep SkillMonkey and MagicMarven happy unless the campaign throws obstacles that favor their abilities over the raw combat power of StatMan fairly often. 

Plus normally fighters are multiple-subclasses. If Stat-man covers all of them, there might be 0 roles left for a 4th or 5th player.

 

7 hours ago, Toxxus said:

In my Fantasy Hero campaign I set hard caps on primary stats at 15 and - at their current power levels - my players can have two stats in the 16-20 range or one stat in the 21-23 range.  As the campaign progresses I'll raise the caps until it's just the standard NCM. 

This reminds me of OpenLegends levelup System. For stats that range from 1-9 (10 with feats), the starting cap is 5. And then it increases over the levels.

[Hugh Neilson]

11 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

At first I thought it was a typo and he meant 60 STR, but then that didn't work out either.  Nor did 30 DEX using NCM.

 

The point is still reasonably made though.  If a guy spends 50 points on X instead of 50 points on Y - Does it really break game balance?

 

My general thought - Yes.  Some stat ranges - depending on the campaign - can absolutely obliterate any sense of balance at the gaming table.

 

Keeping a group of players happy with game balance requires that both the reality of the balance and the perception of the balance be in a good place. 

Each Hero must feel like their particular strengths and skills are just as important to the groups success as those of the other players.

 

If StatMan does double the damage of his counter-parts while being nigh invulnerable and faster to boot then it will be difficult to keep SkillMonkey and MagicMarven happy unless the campaign throws obstacles that favor their abilities over the raw combat power of StatMan fairly often.

 

 

If StatMan has to pay double for abilities MagicMarvin and SkillMonkey pay standard cost, who will actually be disadvantaged?  StatMan pays 50 points for +30 STR, so he has 40 STR.  Along comes Magic Marvin with his Mighty Thews spell (+50 STR for the same 50 points), which has a minor "only to activate" limitation.  Now who is overpowered?  I do agree with niche enforcement, but your limiting of characters example would work just as well with no NCM.  Seems like it is StatMan's niche getting trampled.

 

Any ability StatMan buys at double cost can be matched by a spell which has no NCM for passing any breakpoint.  Tossing out NCM does not mean tossing out all oversight for balance.  Show me the builds for StatMan, SkillMonkey and MagicMarven - each designed efficiently, under NCM or not, - and let's see the huge overpowering impact characteristics provide.

 

3 hours ago, Christopher said:

Seriously? Is that actually a question you just asked? Do you want to reformulate the question to sound sensible?

 

Because even one stat that high is already a balance issue?

 

But adding two balance issues can result in a bigger balance issue. That is why "Yield" sign powers still have STOP sign power modifiers.

 

Plus normally fighters are multiple-subclasses. If Stat-man covers all of them, there might be 0 roles left for a 4th or 5th player.

 

So why isn't 60 STR (40 of which is "only if he never cuts his hair, -0" so it is limited and NCM does not apply) overpowered?  My -0 is, of course, somewhat facetious, but we can simply make it Gestures only to Activate for a Spell of Great Might, and a similar Grace of the Cat spell to bump DEX similarly.  If the issue is niche enforcement, reduce total points available and avoid the need to double the cost of anything.

[Christopher]

On 1/19/2019 at 6:14 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

So why isn't 60 STR (40 of which is "only if he never cuts his hair, -0" so it is limited and NCM does not apply) overpowered?

Who says it is not? Because last I read (about 5 minutes ago), the book said this:
" Campaigns that impose Characteristic Maxima
usually also establish Movement Maxima that
double the cost of buying Running, Swimming, and
Leaping beyond a certain point. Te GM can waive
this rule in the interest of common sense, dramatic
sense, and considerations of game balance. Tis is
particularly appropriate when characters buy any of
the following: (a) Advantaged, Limited, or restricted
bonuses to those Movement Powers intended to
represent special abilities or the like (rather than
general increases in the character’s ability to move);
and (b) bonuses to those Movement Powers bought
as Foci (gadgets, devices, or the like)."

[Hugh Neilson]

Simply put, if 60 STR, or 30 DEX, or 50 meters of running, or a 4d6 RKA, or whatever is unbalancing, then it is unbalancing.  It is not made balanced by charging more points for it.  It is not made more balanced because you can get the extra (above NCM) ability for half price by slapping a -0 limitation on it *.  It is simply unbalanced, so it should not be allowed.  Not "OK, but you have to pay more points" - not balanced, so not allowed.  Done. 

 

* if I was going to have to pay 40 points for +20 STR, and I can instead pay 16 points by slapping a -1/4 limitation on it, that seems like a lot of points saved for a pretty minor limitation.  The combination of losing NCM and the minor limitation made that -1/4 save points like a -1 1/2 limitation.  That seems like the opposite of "balanced". 

 

It is not, IMO, balanced that Player 1 can buy +4d6 Blast for 20 points, while Player 2 can only buy +10 STR (because NCM doubles his cost).  But if that were balanced, then it is not balanced that Player 1 pays 16 points for +4d6 Blast, minor -1/4 limitation while that same minor limitation lets Player 2 buy +20 STR for the same price.  It is similarly  not balanced when two PCs have a 40 STR, one paid 50 points (no limitations) and the other pays for 20 STR, +20 with a minor -1/4 limitation, and pays only  26 points.   

 

 Sometimes you pay double and sometimes you don't.  Paying different costs for the same ability is not balanced.  It is the opposite of balanced.  That seems like it should be pretty obvious.

 

As Lucius' examples point out, NCM does not enforce balance - it makes it more expensive (at least sometimes) to be unbalanced.  It does not provide niche protection - it makes the cost of any "I'm legendary" niche more expensive.  Everyone in the game can show up with a 60 STR if they pay 50 points (no NCM) or 90 points (NCM) or 50 points with a -0 limitation (NCM) or 36 points with a -1/4 limitation on the last 30 points (NCM). 

 

What does it provide, if it neither enforces balance (campaign limits) nor niche protection?  Nothing of value that I can see, other than a false sense of confidence that we are enforcing these benefits, so we don't look to approaches that would achieve those goals. 

[Lucius]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

What does it provide, if it neither enforces balance (campaign limits) nor niche protection?  Nothing of value that I can see, other than a false sense of confidence that we are enforcing these benefits, so we don't look to approaches that would achieve those goals. 

 

This is why I call it a "flintmobile."

 

Remember that cartoon The Flintstones? Remember the family piling into the "stone age car" and then they all stick their feet through the bottom and start running?  It LOOKS like a car so you would THINK it helps you get from place to place but all it is, is a heavy contraption you lug around while still doing all the work yourself.

 

Normal Characteristic Maxima is like that. It won't prevent a STR 30 Pixie, you still have to do that yourself. All it gives you is the kind of headaches you can expect from trying to run a point buy system with a bolted on glitch that violates the "get what you pay for, pay for what you get" principle.

 

I really do need to track down and repost those Florist Friars.

 

edit: here they are:

The Florist Friars

 

Brother Rose Aka ”the Flying Monk”

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

15 STR 5 12- Lift 200.0kg; 3d6 [3]

20 DEX 30 13- OCV: 7/DCV: 7

13 CON 6 12-

9 BODY -2 11-

13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-

11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4

13 PRE 3 12- PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6

8 COM -1 11-

 

3/5 PD 0 Total: 3/5 PD (0/2 rPD)

3/4 ED 0 Total: 3/4 ED (0/1 rED)

6 SPD 50 Phases: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12

6 REC 0

26 END 0

24 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 88

 

Movement:

Running: 3"/6"

Flight: 3"/12"

Leaping: 2"/4"

Swimming:1"/2"

 

Cost Powers END

9 The Flying Monk: Flight 3", x4 Noncombat, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (22 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Drain 3d6 END when fuel runs out.; -1/2), Conditional Power Only if already ran 3" that phase; Can only go noncombat if ran noncombat that phase (-1/2), Only In Contact With A Surface (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel (Secret herbal potion) Charge lasting 30 Minutes (-1/4) [1 cc]

1 No thank you, I won't stand still and let you land a solid blow...: Armor (2 PD/1 ED) (5 Active Points); Limited Power Does not stop first pt of BOD of a Killing Attack (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Drain 3d6 END when fuel runs out.; -1/2), Linked (The Flying Monk; Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use; -1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 30 Minutes (-1/4) [1 cc]

2 Healing Potion: Rapid Healing (5 Active Points); OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), 6 Boostable Charges (-1/2)

Notes: For some reason, Brother Rose's herbal potions seem to only be able to heal himself. Unfortunately, not everyone believes that....

He's Fast!

Maneuver OCV DCV Notes

5 Flying Dodge -- +4 Dodge All, Abort; FMove

3 Martial Throw +0 +1 3d6 +v/5, Target Falls

3 Martial Grab -1 -1 Grab 2 Limbs, 25 STR holding

 

Skills

3 Breakfall 13-

3 Acrobatics 13-

3 Bureaucratics 12-

3 Paramedics 12-

3 Trading 12-

0 Language: English (idiomatic) (4 Active Points)

2 Language: Latin (fluent conversation)

3 Jack of All Trades

2 1) PS: Florist (3 Active Points) 12-

2 2) PS: Flower Arranging (3 Active Points) 12-

2 3) PS: Gardener (3 Active Points) 12-

2 4) PS: Herbalist (3 Active Points) 12-

3 Scholar

2 1) KS: Canon Law (3 Active Points) 12-

2 2) KS: Flowers (3 Active Points) 12-

2 3) KS: Herblore (3 Active Points) 12-

2 4) KS: The Fastest Routes through the City (3 Active Points) 12-

 

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 62

Total Cost: 150

 

75+ Disadvantages

0 Normal Characteristic Maxima

5 Age: 40+

15 Dependent NPC: Brother Orchid 14- (Slightly Less Powerful)

15 Psychological Limitation: Monastic Vows (Common, Strong)

5 Money: Vow of Poverty Poor

5 Distinctive Features: Monastic Habit (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

10 Rivalry: Professional (Mercury Man and the FTD; Rival is Significantly More Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Unaware of Rivalry)

5 Hunted: People wanting the secret of his herbal preperations 8- (As Pow, Mildly Punish)

15 Hunted: Ecclesiastical Superiors 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)

 

Total Disadvantage Points: 150

 

Background/History: Brother Rose gained the nickname "The Flying Monk" when he started doing the deliveries for his monastic order's floral business.

 

Personality/Motivation: Brother Rose loves the Church and flowers, not necessarily in that order. He has an irrational resentment of Florist's Transworld Delivery because their symbol "Mercury Man" is a Pagan God.

 

Quote: May the Saint forgive me, but I hate Valentine's Day....how many more orders do I have to deliver?

 

Powers/Tactics: Unless he is cornered or must act to protect the innocent, Brother Rose responds to violence by running away.

 

Campaign Use: Florist Friar

 

Appearance: Brother Rose is almost always to be found in his monkish habit. Wearing it is one of his monkish habits.

 

 

 

 

Brother Orchid aka “Brother Ox”

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

40 STR 50 17- Lift 6400.0kg; 8d6 [8]

11 DEX 3 11- OCV: 4/DCV: 4

13 CON 6 12-

10 BODY 0 11-

10 INT 0 11- PER Roll 11-

11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4

15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6

8 COM -1 11-

 

6 PD -2 Total: 6 PD (0 rPD)

4 ED 1 Total: 4 ED (0 rED)

3 SPD 9 Phases: 4, 8, 12

11 REC 0

26 END 0

37 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 67

 

Movement:

Running: 5"/10"

Leaping: 4"/8"

Swimming:2"/4"

 

Talents

6 Combat Luck (3 PD/3 ED)

 

Skills

3 Hoist 11-

3 Jack of All Trades

2 1) PS: Florist (3 Active Points) 11-

2 2) PS: Flower Arranging (3 Active Points) 11-

2 3) PS: Gardener (3 Active Points) 11-

3 Scholar

2 1) KS: Flowers (3 Active Points) 11-

2 2) KS: Herblore (3 Active Points) 11-

2 3) KS: Monastic Traditions (worldwide) (3 Active Points) 11-

2 +1 With Grab

 

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 29

Total Cost: 96

 

50+ Disadvantages

0 Normal Characteristic Maxima

15 Psychological Limitation: Monastic Vows (Common, Strong)

5 Money: Vow of Poverty Poor

5 Distinctive Features: Monastic Habit (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

15 Hunted: Ecclesiastical Superiors 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)

10 Psychological Limitation: Looks up to Brother Rose (Common, Moderate)

 

Total Disadvantage Points: 50

 

Background/History: Brother Orchid is actually Brother Rose's nephew, and he looks up to his uncle as a wiser and more experienced monk. But he's also read about the monastic and ascetic traditions of other cultures, and is not above sometimes mischeivously annoying his uncle by comparing their own rules and rituals to those of Buddhists or Taoists.

 

Personality/Motivation: Curiosity about Eastern traditions aside, Brother Orchid takes his vow of Obedience very seriously. Whatever he's doing at any given moment, it's probably what someone told him to do.

 

Quote: No thank you brother, I can handle it. They can't weigh more than a couple hundred kilos.

 

Powers/Tactics: Brother Orchid is gentle by nature and if he must fight will usually try to grab and immobilize his opponent. He knows he is unusually strong and is unlikely to strike anyone with his full Strength unless frightened or severely provoked.

 

Campaign Use: Florist Friar

 

Appearance: Brother Orchid is almost always to be found in his monkish habit. Wearing it is one of his monkish habits.

 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Florist Friars copyright Palindromedary Enterprises

 

 

[Sean Waters]

On 1/14/2019 at 12:58 AM, LordQulex said:

So as far as my group can tell, intimidation is a presence attack. One of my PCs wants to improve their intimidation, which normally isn't too rough but in this case, I can't find much in the book aside from the obvious solution of increasing your presence. In a heroic level with normal human characteristic maxima, that's kind of expensive. So I as a stop gap I'm having her buy PRE as a power, with a -2 Limited Power (only works for intimidation) but can only buy as much presence as her character has. This gives her a 5d6 presence attack, which is reasonable in a heroic campaign. 

 

Have any of you had a PC that wants to intimidate better? How did you handle it?

 

Thanks!

 

I'm not a fan of the PRE attack.  Players tend not to like it when it happens to them ("Terrorfex rolls 48.  You surrender and will need a change of underwear.") and it intrudes into the already somewhat besieged territory of social interaction skills out of combat.  If you want to interrogate someone, buy Interrogation.

 

The mechanic is also weak, to my mind, very much a blunt instrument.  No roll to hit, no range limitations, automatic AOE.  I could go on.  I have in the past.

 

Anyway, what is it that this character uses his Intimidation PRE attacks for, and what is it that the character is actually doing - how does the ability work?  Bear in mind that 5d6 is only going to net you 17 or 18 points of effect on average and repeated attempts take penalties.  You can boost that in the right situation or modifiers but I only allow stuff like 'violent action' as a bonus if it is something the NPC can not do, or can not do nearly as well.  Bending an iron bar might impress Joe Wimp but Joanna Strong can just pick it up and straighten it again, so she is going to be far less impressed.

 

I mean, sure you can theoretically spend your points on anything, but I always like a bit of coherence in the character design: why is this character so scary? 

 

Bear in mind as well that going round terrifying people all the time will have in-game consequences.  The character might develop a reputation - that might actually enhance his scariness in some cases, but in many others it just means that people won't engage with him at all.  In many places, threatening words and behaviour constitute an offence.  If he walks into a bar and smashes the place up to intimidate a potential witness, someone is going to report him to the police and anyone who thinks he is after them is going avoid him.  He'll have to catch them before he can intimidate them.  No one is going to like him, and he's going to die sad and lonely.

 

Like I say, not really a fan...

 

[Ninja-Bear]

And another adage of Hero system is even though something could be legally bought, if it breaks the spirit of the game then it’s abusive.

[Duke Bushido]

I know the OP referred specifically to intimidation, but it has always bugged me that the rules seem to think that " him scary dude" is the only kind of "presence" a character can have. 

 

Presence is essentially the force and impact of personality.  I recall in older edition s that particularly charming people (and politicians) had abive-average presence. 

 

What if I want to use my bold, steady-as-a-rock personality to reassure a group of citizens trapped in the elevator of a burning building?  I don't think punching a hole through the wall and screaming is going to help at all. 

 

Or if my high Presence represents a warm and unflappable grace: why do I have to buy "mind control, single command: you like this guy"  or "this is a good man" or whatever?  Beyond that, how is cranking my flaming aura to maximum while letting my 12D6 plasma blast melt away the ceiling possibly going to _add_ to that effect? 

 

No: I am not going to make the statement that "Presence is broken.". For one, I'm not mathy enough to prove it without setting down with a pencil and paper.  For two, I don't think it is.  I _do_, however, feel like accepting that the only use for an aura of personality is to scare other people is something that could have been addressed at any point since the first edition, and never was.  Well, at least not through published rules. 

 

Just one simple 'frinstance (wife and kids are on computer tonight, and I'm on a phone, and the guy who decided that touch screen was the input device of the future can eat a whole great big bag of them) :

 

Superman is, ostensibly, one of (the) most powerful characters in his universe.  So powerful that any rational being should be absolutely Terrified that he exists: he could kill _thousands_ of people completely on accident (folks, please forgive me for this; I do not make light of it or offer it casually or in bad taste) in a Twin Towers sort of scenario. 

 

But NO ONE thinks like that.  They _love_ him. 

 

Why?  His personality: confident, warm, friendly, helpful-- the man is the world's most amazing boyscout, and that's what people take away when they are in his presence.   

 

I'm pretty sure that casually knocking over a building is going to work _against_ the way Superman uses his PRE. 

 

more on this (at some point when I regain a keyboard) in Chris Goodwin's "early editions house rules thread, coming to a forum near you.

 

 

TOUCH SCREENS!  I meant touch screens, as in" eat a big ol' bag of glass. "

 

My daughter is reading over my shoulder ( big phone) and has just informed me that when kids today say" eat a bag of something, " there is apparently a very specific something that is implied.   Oops. 

 

 

 

Duke

[Sean Waters]

Kids today, eh?

 

To blow my own trumpet here, a little, in this thread: 

I suggested replacing all of the existing social interaction skills with, well, this:

 

Skill name: Feel free to change this to better reflect your character, but changing the name does not change what the skill does, just the flavour of the skill.

Definition: What the skill allows you to do.

Characteristic base: the characteristic that the skill roll is based on.

Resistance: what the subject of the skill attempt can use to try and reduce or remove the effect of the skill in a skill v skill contest.  In addition to whatever is listed, the subject can always use a characteristic roll at -2 (usually the same as the characteristic base for the skill to resist the effect of the skill use).

 

Skill name: Argument

Definition: The ability to make someone accept information (and act on that information) using logic.

Characteristic base: INT

Resistance: Argument, Cross Examination and any relevant Psychological Complication.

 

Skill name: Cross Examination

Definition: Finding any inconsistencies or errors in a statement.

Characteristic base: INT

Resistance: Lying. 

 

Skill name: Lying

Definition: The ability to tell a consistent lie or avoid providing certain information.

Characteristic base: INT

Resistance: Cross Examination

 

Skill name: Persuasion

Definition: The ability to make someone accept information (and act on that information) based on emotion.

Characteristic base: PRE

Resistance: Persuasion, Insight or any relevant Psychological Complication

 

Skill name: Insight

Definition: The ability to determine someone’s true emotional state and whether they are trying to emotionally influence you.

Characteristic base: PRE

Resistance: Persuasion or Dissembling.

 

Skill name: Dissembling

Definition: The ability to conceal your true feelings or intentions.

Characteristic base: PRE

Resistance: Insight

 

Skill name: Charm

Definition: the ability to make someone feel positive toward you.  Generally people that you charm will feel well disposed toward you and be willing to see the best in you.  This can act as a Complimentary Skill for many other Social interaction Skills.

Characteristic base: PRE

Resistance: Insight, or Psychological Complications

 

Skill name: Intimidate

Definition: the ability to make someone feel negative toward you.  Generally people that you intimidate become fearful of you.  This can act as a Complimentary Skill for many other Social interaction Skills.

Characteristic base: PRE

Resistance: Insight, or Psychological Complications

 

Skill name: Imitation/Mimicry

Definition: the ability to observe and copy the physical mannerisms of another person or thing.

Characteristic base: INT

Resistance: Insight or Cross Examination

 

Skill name: Oppress

Definition: the ability to make someone feel a negative emotion about themselves

Characteristic base: PRE

Resistance: Psychological Limitations

 

Skill name: Inspire

Definition: the ability to make someone feel a positive emotion about themselves

Characteristic base: PRE

Resistance: Psychological Limitations

 

Skill name: Engage

Definition: The ability to draw and hold someone’s attention, which can be useful for distracting them and may act as a complimentary skill in some social situations.

Characteristic base: PRE

Resistance: Psychological Limitations

 

Skill name: Animal Training

Definition: The ability to condition an animal to do what you want it to.

Characteristic base: INT

Resistance: Pychological Complications

 

Skill name: Animal Empathy

Definition: The ability to understand the emotions of an animal and react appropriately.

Characteristic base: PRE

Resistance: Psychological Complications

 

OK, I know that is not going to happen until, at the earliest, 7e, but the advantage of that approach is it allows for more nuance and would potentially replace PRE attacks:  intimidating someone would be a combination of Intimidate and Oppress.  In itself it would not do anything other than make your target feel afraid of you and that there is little they can do about it - you would need another social skill to direct those feelings (probably Persuasion, maybe Argument or Oratory).  Equally you could Inspire good feelings in someone and/or about you with Inspire and Charm.  You could even mix it up and make someone feel worthless (Oppress) but that you are their lifeline (Charm).  

 

Someone who is afraid of you but not directed would act that way - not attacking, maybe trying to get away from you, maybe even attacking you is they had the right Psychological Complications.  It also works pretty well for the Good Cop Bad Cop situation - you have the big threatening dumb one and the reasonable quiet and friendly one.

 

Hmm.  Anyway.  That is not really an answer to how to make things work in the existing framework, but I offer it for your consideration anyway.

 

[Christopher]

9 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I know the OP referred specifically to intimidation, but it has always bugged me that the rules seem to think that " him scary dude" is the only kind of "presence" a character can have.  

Except for Comeliness and Striking appereance saying exactly the opposite. So much they had to mention "yes, this also works for being a scray dude".

[Hugh Neilson]

Sean's model is an interesting one.  I won't repeat my comments from the other thread here, but I was going to refer Duke to the "Determining whether an NPC is Lying" thread for that discussion.

 

And I just did!

[Duke Bushido]

Thanks, Hugh. 

 

I'll try to check it out when I get home tonight. 

 

Duke