P.I. with Indirect STR?

[archer]

I've got an idea for a NPC private investigator character who I'm not sure how to model in 6e without it being hugely expensive. He does mostly the spooky fringe cases of the supernatural: things where the cops or a normal private eye would be completely out of their depth but where you would feel silly calling on a heavy-hitter like Dr. Strange. And besides, this guy is in the Yellow Pages while Dr. Strange isn't.

 

The main gimmick, that he's known for, is that his extremities are sometimes a bit out of phase with the real world. Like if he's gesturing broadly, his fingertips might pass through a desk or a wall but so quickly that the people he's talking to aren't quite sure if they actually saw what they saw.

 

In game terms, he can reach most of an arm (or another limb) through something and manipulate things on the other side with 5 STR. He can do stuff like open a locked door or window, flip on the lights, adjust the display inside a jewelry case, feel what's in someone's pockets, feel what's inside a lock-box, drop candy from a vending machine without paying for it, pick up a piece of paper on a desk and bring it close to the window to read, etc. Anything you could do with your arm or leg, he can do with whatever length of limb he has stuck through to the other side. He can't see through the barrier unless the barrier is normally transparent.

 

If someone grabs his arm while it's pushed through something, he can only exert 5 STR when trying to pull his arm back through. 5 STR is literally all which can be exerted even if Grond is trying to help pull the arm back through.

 

Also, the arm physically exists in the intervening space so if, for example, he accidentally pushes his arm into the power cable going to a light switch, he could electrocute himself. And he can feel the difference between various substances so he can feel the difference between empty space, studs, nails, Sheetrock, etc. when sticking his hands through a wall.

 

As a SFX, it'd be nice if, for example, when arguing to Iron Man that he could poke him in the chest with one finger (for emphasis) and the finger go through the armor and poke Tony himself. That'd be a great hero (or villain) freak out moment but isn't overwhelmingly important and could be a GM handwave SFX rather than strictly by the rules if necessary.

 

The idea sounds a bit like a Sense power, a bit like STR with an Indirect advantage, a bit like Desolid with a huge pile of disadvantages, and a bit like Telekinesis with disadvantages. Maybe it's a multipower with all of those options? Maybe it's only one of those? Maybe it's something totally different?

 

I also haven't fleshed out the rest of the abilities an experienced but barely supernatural private eye might have so if you have some low cost ideas....

[massey]

5 Str TK, no range?

 

or just Indirect on 5 normal Str

[RDU Neil]

This is the classic example of HERO in headache mode. Something that is simple in concept and basically more flavor than functional is going to require complex over-engineering to make possible.

 

Old school... go with STR, Indirect, call it good... which would handle 99% of all actual game play uses.

 

currently... some kind of frankenstein MP for an astronomical cost and wast of time over-engineering it.

 

Or... go new school with old school... it is STR with a Custom Advantage: Ghost Limb... and come up with what you think your description... "Extremity is sometimes a bit out of phase with the real world. Like if he's gesturing broadly, his fingertips might pass through a desk or a wall but so quickly that the people he's talking to aren't quite sure if they actually saw what they saw. In game terms, the extremity can reach an arm (or another limb) through something and manipulate things on the other side with X STR.  Character can do stuff like open a locked door or window, flip on the lights, adjust the display inside a jewelry case, feel what's in someone's pockets, feel what's inside a lock-box, drop candy from a vending machine without paying for it, pick up a piece of paper on a desk and bring it close to the window to read, etc. Anything you could do with your arm or leg, he can do with whatever length of limb the character has stuck through to the other side. He can't see through the barrier unless the barrier is normally transparent.

 

If someone grabs his arm while it's pushed through something, he can only exert X STR when trying to pull his arm back through.

 

The arm physically exists in the intervening space so if, for example, he accidentally pushes his arm into the power cable going to a light switch, he could electrocute himself. And he can feel the difference between various substances so he can feel the difference between empty space, studs, nails, Sheetrock, etc. when sticking his hands through a wall."... is worth.

 

So... how much is that worth? It really comes down to "Can't bypass defenses, but could bypass barriers with attacks. Can bypass barriers to manipulate objects on the other side."

 

I guess my only question comes down to the consistency of your description. 1. I'm not sure why it would hurt the guy if he pushed his hand through a power cable, but doesn't hurt going through a wall of razor glass? Just seems odd, unless you are say, "Ghost limb can't pass though energy or energy barriers" which is cool. Just include that.   2. If someone grabs it, why can't he just ghost away and pull back? Clearly no one could grab his hand while ghosting through the wall, and he has to "unghost" the hand to manipulate things, but pulling it back he'd have to ghost it again... so why can't he just "reghost" his hand if someone grabs it?

 

Work those two kinks out and Me... I'd rule +3/4... it is more than just indirect, but less than double the STR cost. Seems fair... good to go.

 

I honestly think HERO works WAY better in cases where, instead of over-engineering a bunch of effects into a gross kludge, you just come up with a ruling and base the cost on comparison of value to what is already defined. 

[mallet]

Can he use this to escape handcuffs and wrist-ties, etc...? If that is the case then there would need to more to it then just Indirect Str. 

According to the 6th Ed rules, I'd buy it as Disoldification (Arms only) with the Affects Physical World (Arms only; for 5 STR). 

 

So...

 

Ghost Arms: Desolidification , Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (60 Active Points); Arms Only (-2), Does Not Protect Against Damage (-1) RC: 15

                       Plus: +5 STR, Affects Physical World (+2) (15 Active Points); Linked (Desolidification; -1/2) RC: 10

 

So total cost is 25 Points

[Tjack]

8 hours ago, massey said:

5 Str TK, no range?

 

or just Indirect on 5 normal Str

 

 

    With the limitation,  Requires Gestures.

[RDU Neil]

59 minutes ago, mallet said:

Can he use this to escape handcuffs and wrist-ties, etc...? If that is the case then there would need to more to it then just Indirect Str. 

According to the 6th Ed rules, I'd buy it as Disoldification (Arms only) with the Affects Physical World (Arms only; for 5 STR). 

 

So...

 

Ghost Arms: Desolidification , Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (60 Active Points); Arms Only (-2), Does Not Protect Against Damage (-1) RC: 15

                       Plus: +5 STR, Affects Physical World (+2) (15 Active Points); Linked (Desolidification; -1/2) RC: 10

 

So total cost is 25 Points

 

This is a very logical, by the book build. It addresses just about everything except "can feel things as passes through them" which I would say Indirect STR could easily be considered to encapsulate, since STR is the stat that embodies the touch sense for the most part... but whatever.

 

Here is my only issue... How often does a character get put in cuffs or wrist restraints, etc? I mean... in 30 plus years, I'm trying to think of a single scenario in a supers game, where this happened. Is 25 points vs. 3-4 for a simple advantage, really worth it for that "maybe, one in a great while, this might be extra useful" in actual play?  I feel not.

 

Now... can Ghost Limb help to escape grabs? As described, I'd say not except in a fun, "The Grabber is suddenly freaked out by your hand sticking through his arm and let's go!" scene... but as soon as Grabber realized no harm done, he grabs again and ghost limb doesn't help. IF Ghost Limb would actually provide bonuses to escaping Grabs... THEN you are in the realm of serious game effectiveness and the extra cost for Desol is much more reasonable.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

5 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

This is a very logical, by the book build. It addresses just about everything except "can feel things as passes through them" which I would say Indirect STR could easily be considered to encapsulate, since STR is the stat that embodies the touch sense for the most part... but whatever.

 

Here is my only issue... How often does a character get put in cuffs or wrist restraints, etc? I mean... in 30 plus years, I'm trying to think of a single scenario in a supers game, where this happened. Is 25 points vs. 3-4 for a simple advantage, really worth it for that "maybe, one in a great while, this might be extra useful" in actual play?  I feel not.

 

Now... can Ghost Limb help to escape grabs? As described, I'd say not except in a fun, "The Grabber is suddenly freaked out by your hand sticking through his arm and let's go!" scene... but as soon as Grabber realized no harm done, he grabs again and ghost limb doesn't help. IF Ghost Limb would actually provide bonuses to escaping Grabs... THEN you are in the realm of serious game effectiveness and the extra cost for Desol is much more reasonable.

If The Grabber declared his two grabbed limbs to be the arms, of course it'd break the grab.  And if he doesn't grab the arms, then the arms are free to do whatever with, such as shooting The Grabber while he's grabbing. 

[archer]

2 hours ago, mallet said:

Can he use this to escape handcuffs and wrist-ties, etc...?

 

I had never considered this at all.

 

From the way I envisioned the NPC's power working, I'd have to say that he could make an arm or leg completely pass through a physical object which is restraining him. That's a bit more useful than I'd thought the power to be. I don't think his power should pass through a living being under any circumstance. In TV shows and movies, private investigators are getting captured then tied up or handcuffed all the time. But 75 active points to get that effect is really expensive, even if it goes into a multipower with everything else the character could possibly do. Once I give an NPC normal a power/multipower of that size,  I have a hard time thinking of him as anything other than a super, which is not the vibe I'm wanting the NPC to have either to myself or to anyone else.

 

Maybe it would be easier to just give a borderline nonsense mystical reason why "the mental intent of the person restraining him doesn't allow him to use his power on restraints".

 

 

And to answer an earlier question, the way I see the power working is that he can reach through one object, like a wall, even if the wall has several layers (like paint, Sheetrock, empty space, stud, Sheetrock, paint). Once he's passed through that object, his limb sticking out the other side is a physical object just as if it had used no odd power to get there.

 

So if he stuck his arm through the wall and there was a painting on the other side, he'd feel the back side of the painting (or perhaps knock the painting off the wall).

 

If he stuck his arm through a wall into a pile of broken glass on the other side of the wall, he would have just stuck his arm into a pile of broken glass.

 

If he stuck his arm through the top of the desk into a drawer, he could feel the stuff inside the drawer. But he couldn't stick his arm on down through into the next drawer from the top. If he wanted to reach into lower drawers, he'd have to stick his arm in through the side of the desk.

 

When I came up with the idea for this character back in 4e (or maybe 3e), I'd intended on having it as Indirect on 5 STR. But the number of things I could think of which he could do with that Indirect just kept growing and growing. So I came up with the idea of some drawbacks which would keep the players from wanting to spend a couple of points to get free lockpicking, a sort of partial desolid, a slightly ranged touch through a barrier, etc. bundled together at a steep discount (especially for characters who could see through solid objects rather than having to guess what is there).

 

Limiting the power to 5 STR was to keep him from using it effectively as a strike or grab. Being vulnerable to energy (electricity) was to keep the NPC from sticking his arm through everything at random like a player would try to do if he had the power (the NPC would explain to the characters why he wasn't doing that). Not being able to exert his full STR to pull his arm back makes him vulnerable to a grab (not that a player couldn't break down the wall and get his arm back but doing that would defeat the attempt at doing something sneaky in the first place).

 

 

Thanks for all the responses so far.

[Doc Democracy]

Hmm.  if you are handcuffed and have 5 indirect strength, would you allow the cuffed character to use his strength to, for example, open a door or grab a weapon??

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

Remembered a possibly better model. 

Stretching 1m, Does Not Cross Intervening Space. 

Cheap and simple, but maybe too cheap for your GM's tastes. 

[Christopher]

On 3/25/2019 at 6:59 AM, archer said:

I've got an idea for a NPC private investigator character who I'm not sure how to model in 6e without it being hugely expensive. He does mostly the spooky fringe cases of the supernatural: things where the cops or a normal private eye would be completely out of their depth but where you would feel silly calling on a heavy-hitter like Dr. Strange. And besides, this guy is in the Yellow Pages while Dr. Strange isn't.

So John Constantine or Zartana, rather then Dr. Fate? or even lower then that?

Or like ArcLight, ArcDark and the VI's of the council in Grrl Power.

 

On 3/25/2019 at 6:59 AM, archer said:

In game terms, he can reach most of an arm (or another limb) through something and manipulate things on the other side with 5 STR. He can do stuff like open a locked door or window, flip on the lights, adjust the display inside a jewelry case, feel what's in someone's pockets, feel what's inside a lock-box, drop candy from a vending machine without paying for it, pick up a piece of paper on a desk and bring it close to the window to read, etc. Anything you could do with your arm or leg, he can do with whatever length of limb he has stuck through to the other side. He can't see through the barrier unless the barrier is normally transparent.

By RAW:

A 5 STR Telekniesis Power + Clarisentience (Touch Group) to aim would cover that.

TK is explicitly that kind of indirect:
"Telekinesis is inherently Indirect (see 6E1 335) in some ways. [...] It can work through a window or a Barrier without having to break the intervening obstacle, at no reduction in STR."  6E1 294 It would cost between 6 and 9 AP.

Clairsentience with it's 20 base cost can be a bit expensive, but you got plenty of Limitations to apply. Fixed Perception point comes to mind.

Both also might get "Reduced range" on the "basically touch range" level.

The total cost might seem high, but this power has a lot of potentialy to break story elements. On the other hand the limited range really limits abuse potential/gives the GM a lot of counterplay options.

 

It is worth nothing that 5 TK STR is actually quite a bit already.

I is a light wind by 6E2 146.

And it is technically enough to Trip up everyone if applied properly.

 

Alterantive Options do exist, if the GM wants to be adventerours or wants make it cheaper (he should only do that retroactively):

Stretching can be made "Does not Pass Intervening Space".

Technically the arm and leg default reach is equivalent to 1m Stretching. Same way you got X meters of Free Running. So you could buy a +1/4 Naked Advantage onto your Automatic Reach, wich rounds up to 1 AP.

 

A naked Advantage "Indirect on 5 STR" might also work out. Should round down a 1 AP power as well.

 

Desolid + "Affects Physical World" for 5 STR might also work if you want to go into full on Poltergeist later/with another Character.

 

APG I 90 has this GM Option Advantage for Desolidification:
"Selective Desolidification (+1½): Ordinarily, a character is either entirely Desolidified, or entirely solid — he can’t be partly intangible and partly tangible. A character with this Advantage, which requires the GM’s permission, can make himself only partly Desolidified, or while Desolidified can selectively solidify part of his body (typically his hands). Selectively solid parts of the body can affect the physical world normally, and in turn be affected by it normally (which may involve use of the Hit Location table to target specific areas of the body). Since a character may not activate and deactivate a Power in the same Phase without GM’s permission, a character cannot partially solidify, perform an Action, and then fully Desolidify in the same Phase."

Granted in this place it would propably imply a huge Limitation as he can only desolid parts of his fingers.