Most abusive power ever

[Fireg0lem]

Okay, I just thought of this. It's such total blatant munchkin-fu that it's hilarious. Plus, a GM might actually let it through, if they get caught off-gaurd. Check it out:

 

8 Elemental Control: Biokinesis (16-point powers)

5 a) Fast-growing Coral Colony: 1d6 Entangle (Standard Effect: 1 Body), 0 Defense - 0 Endurance Cost (+ 1/2), Continuous (+1), Uncontrolled (Completely break the entangle once; + 1/2); No Range (-1/2).

8 Biokinetic Flight: Flight 4" - Variable Advantage (0 Endurance, Ranged, Megascale, Useable Underwater; +3/4), Useable by Other (+1/4); Only Organic Targets (-0)

42 c) Biokinetic Blast: 4d6 Energy Blast - AVLD (Power Defense; (+1 1/2), Penetrating (+1/2); Organic Targets Only (-1/4)

9 d) Consuming Micro-organisms: 1d6 Major Transform to Waste Products - Penetrating (+1/2); Inorganic Targets Only (-1/2)

9 e) Biokinetic mastery: 6d6 Dispel [standard Effect: 18] - Organism-dependant Powers, One At A Time (+1/4), No Range (-1/2)

 

Total cost: 72 CP

 

So, what's so bad? The EC represents the abilities of a biokinetic, and his ability to summon, alter, and control living organisms. He can summon a colony of coral from his fingetips, levitate any living target, attack anything alive by tearing it apart from the inside, or summon a colony of micro-organisms that devour inorganic matter as their food (the exact ones are different for any given type of matter to be munched), or affect other powers based on controlling organisms. The Coral Colony can get overwhelming fast, but as you can point out to your GM, it is totally useless in combat against anyone without really pathetic speed and attacks. The only way you can restrain someone with it is by targeting them when they're KOd, and even then they can eventually get loose. The flight is pretty cookie-cutter, the biokinetic blast is hard to defend against but very weak, and the micro-organisms are rarely going to be used in a fight. The Dispel is pretty weak, and it only works against a fairly select group of powers (it is NOT Dispel vs. Any Power An Organism Has, it is meant to be used against other biokinetics, animal summoners, bacteriological powers, etc.)

 

So what's the "horrible abuse?" Simple. The biokinetic uses the coral colony on himself! It quickly grows to obscene size, with 1000s of body. The biokinetic is of course restrained and at 0 DCV - but he is effectively immune to normal damage. He uses his Biokinesis to move himself around, and slowly defeats his opponents with the BK Blast (or, if they are inorganic, Consuming Micro-organisms), both of which require Hardened Power Defense to resist. If he is attacked with one of the rare few attacks that will bypass his living shield, he aborts to Dispelling it [since it is only 16 AP, he automatically succeeds], leaving him no worse off.

 

With only 72 points, a character could reasonably beat even the most disgustingly powerful superhuman, without resorting to powers that are obviously broken. Even against things like NNDs that would avoid his shield, he is as good as anyone else (and with another 278 points, this character should load up on Mental Defense [nuerological self-control], Power Defense [altering his body to resist strange effects], Total Life Support [making his body strong enough to resist weaknesses], Flash Defense for every sense (controlling sensory feedback], Lack of Weakness [making redundant internal organs], etc. I dare someone to try and slip this past their GM.

[Oruncrest]

Don't Make Me Laugh!

 

Hate to tell you this FiregOlem, but I could beat this loser with Black Diamond -- from Fouth Edition.

 

Let's say a character with this sort of power (let's call him Coral King) is a villian who needs some fast cash, so he spends 2 hours collecting 3000 BODY worth of coral for protection (Let's give him SPD 5 as well). He floats over to the First Union National Bank, says he's here for the money, laughs at the security guards as they plick of a piddling 4 BODY each with their revolvers before zapping a few of them and telling the tellers to fill up his floating bags.

 

Unfortunately for him, Black Daimond is also in need of the folding green and has decided to make an unscheduled withdrawal from the FUN Bank as well. Needless to say, the first thing she does when it becomes apparent that CK is going for the green as well is roll on the floor laughing her @$$ off. "You, a supervillian?" she gasps out. "And here I thought you were Brick's ugly brother... BWAAAAHHH-Hahahahaha."

 

Infuriated, CK attacks BD with his biokinetic blast. BD, feeling that, says it's time to show this loser just why he's not ready for Prime Time (much less GRAB). Unfortunately her punches can't hurt him. "Hahaha," CK laughs, "You cannot hurt me! while I am protected by my loyal coral, I am invulnerable!" Then he zaps her again.

 

BD staggers back from this second attack until she bumps into the 'island' that's you can use to fill out your deposit slips. Grabbing the 'island', BD smashes CK upside the head with it.

 

And this is where CK's first problem crops up. The 'island' now pins him to the floor, and it's too heavy to lift using his Biokinetic flight. And he can't move his arms to push it aside (He's entangled, remember?). "Unnh," CK groans. "I've fallen, and I can't get up!"

 

"You can't move?" BD asks. "Really? Then that means... I win!!" BD begins doing victory dance.

 

Meanwhile, CK tries to get out by removing his coral oversuit, only to discover his second problem. The GM, having poured over the Dispel power has come to the conclusion that Dispel only affects the power, not the effect! This is also known as the disappearing hammer concept, where if I hit you upside the head with a hammer that disappears, you've still have been hit by a hammer, and your skull's still been cracked. The good news is that his coral 'armor' won't be regenerating itself anymore. The bad news is that he's under a 3000 BODY shell that he can't get rid of.

 

Meanwhile, BD has finished her victory dance and decided to take the money (which is in those bags that the tellers filled up earlier) and run. BD thanks CK for getting 'her' money ready for her and splits. As for Coral King, if he's lucky, he can get away after the cops lift the 'island' off of him (more than likely, a couple of cops'll jump him at the same time and handcuff him to themselves, thus preventing him from floating away. Sorry CK.

 

And this is with a 215pt. character with a 60 STR. Foxbat could take him down. Any Egotist would have his number. He's just plain screwed.

 

Nice try though.

[astralfrontier]

My vote for most abusive power is the 16384 cultist Followers who have Aid vs. Aid, and the last follower who has Aid vs. the PC's 'Divine powers' Variable Power Pool.

 

All things considered it's pretty cheap, as long as nobody kills off your followers en masse.

[altamaros]

Originally posted by memesis

My vote for most abusive power is the 16384 cultist Followers who have Aid vs. Aid, and the last follower who has Aid vs. the PC's 'Divine powers' Variable Power Pool.

 

All things considered it's pretty cheap, as long as nobody kills off your followers en masse.

 

Not a problem if, as one of my players once tried, you take your followers with Regeneration, from death (60 AP, 24 real) on each follower...

[Christougher]

Okay, exactly what part of that living coral power implies it has unlimited body? Continuous would only restore it to its default maximum, 1 Body. Even autofire adds only 1 Body per additional entangle, (I believe) up to the default maximum of 1 Body.

[ChocolateMousje]

Originally posted by Christougher

Okay, exactly what part of that living coral power implies it has unlimited body? Continuous would only restore it to its default maximum, 1 Body. Even autofire adds only 1 Body per additional entangle, (I believe) up to the default maximum of 1 Body.

 

What default maximum? Even if you were thinking of Aid's maximum from dice that'd be 2 BODY from a 1d6. The standard effect 1 BODY just means he doesn't have to roll every time, but takes the average of 1.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Don't Make Me Laugh!

 

Originally posted by Oruncrest

And this is where CK's first problem crops up. The 'island' now pins him to the floor, and it's too heavy to lift using his Biokinetic flight. And he can't move his arms to push it aside (He's entangled, remember?). "Unnh," CK groans. "I've fallen, and I can't get up!"

 

 

But he can, however, summon a swarm of micro-organisms to dissolve said desk. His Transform can get rid of the island pretty fast, since it gets no Defense.

 

Meanwhile, CK tries to get out by removing his coral oversuit, only to discover his second problem. The GM, having poured over the Dispel power has come to the conclusion that Dispel only affects the power, not the effect! This is also known as the disappearing hammer concept, where if I hit you upside the head with a hammer that disappears, you've still have been hit by a hammer, and your skull's still been cracked. The good news is that his coral 'armor' won't be regenerating itself anymore. The bad news is that he's under a 3000 BODY shell that he can't get rid of.

 

 

That, I'd be interested to know. I'd expect that you could dispel an Entangle's lingering effect. Not allowing it does create a number of odd effects. For example, an Entangle defined as "Magical Force holding target in place," once it goes off, could not be affected by a normal Dispel vs. Magic - very odd. Not the strangest thing I've ever heard, though. Can you point to something in the rules that comes out and states this? I'm not sure if an entangle should really count as "damage" for this purpose.

 

Really, I'm not just arguing for the sake of defending my point - I'm a tad hesitant to accept something like this, just because of the resonant weirdness it causes.

 

Meanwhile, BD has finished her victory dance and decided to take the money (which is in those bags that the tellers filled up earlier) and run. BD thanks CK for getting 'her' money ready for her and splits. As for Coral King, if he's lucky, he can get away after the cops lift the 'island' off of him (more than likely, a couple of cops'll jump him at the same time and handcuff him to themselves, thus preventing him from floating away. Sorry CK.

 

Again, the transform. Bye-bye handcuffs. A handcuff has what, 3 BODY? Sorry, cops. Coral King may have lost the battle, but he'll win the war - he's completely untouched, after all.

 

I'm getting tempted to write up a full-350 point version of Coral King, now.

[zornwil]

Well, to be fair, Entangling oneself to gain defense is a blatant breaking of the underlying rule in HERO regarding paying for effect (can't buy a cheaper power to simulate another one, pick the most appropriate power). The effect is more defense. Using Entangle just to generate that is going to set off most GMs alarms during play. I'd be a little annoyed if someone explained their Entangle was their defense after game play started. I'd assume it was an innocent enough mistake and change it for the future.

 

As to how unbeatable the character is, I wouldn't venture until you actually submit a write-up. I can imagine a few ways, just depends on which things he loads up on.

[farik]

Re: Re: Don't Make Me Laugh!

 

Originally posted by Fireg0lem

But he can, however, summon a swarm of micro-organisms to dissolve said desk. His Transform can get rid of the island pretty fast, since it gets no Defense.[/b]

 

Isn't that a question of what the desk is made of really?

 

Originally posted by Fireg0lem

That, I'd be interested to know. I'd expect that you could dispel an Entangle's lingering effect. Not allowing it does create a number of odd effects. For example, an Entangle defined as "Magical Force holding target in place," once it goes off, could not be affected by a normal Dispel vs. Magic - very odd. Not the strangest thing I've ever heard, though. Can you point to something in the rules that comes out and states this? I'm not sure if an entangle should really count as "damage" for this purpose.[/b]

 

The difference with entangles is always the special effect. The SFX of an entngle dictate how long it lingers. For instance Spider man's webbing he throws it and it's there if he has to get through it it's just as much an obstacle for him as the next guy which is not just similar to CK's entangle but almost identical in SFX concept. A dispel magic would more likely work on magic bonds since magical energy isn't a physical thing no if the spell summons physical chains then they wouldn't be able to be dispelled but by special effect they're just chains so things like escape artist would work and getting the person out is really no harder than getting normal chains off them.

 

Originally posted by Fireg0lem

Again, the transform. Bye-bye handcuffs. A handcuff has what, 3 BODY? Sorry, cops. Coral King may have lost the battle, but he'll win the war - he's completely untouched, after all. [/b]

 

Again first I'd look at the special effect of the handcuff material. Secondly I'd probably have "Special" police show up to make the arrest equipped with detects, suppressors, entangles,..etc designed to deal with Powers.

[Kristopher]

I can think of several of my PCs and NPCs who could steal Coral King's lunch money.

 

If nothing else, there's a Telekinetic with a serious amount of Power Defense who would laugh at this guy.

 

As for the increasing BODY on the Entangle, the rules for that power do specifically note that each additional use of the power does in fact add a minimum of +1 BODY to the Entangle. I see that Coral King's Entangel has 0 Def, which mean that LOTS of BODY affects the coral with each attack. A punch from an untrained Normal will do a couple BODY.

 

The "defensive entangle" is a useless strategy if Coral King doesn't have a lot of time to prepare. A clever, stealthy opponent will track him down and attack him when he's not ready for it.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Re: Re: Don't Make Me Laugh!

 

Farik: I don't want to quote a quote, and the formatting is a bit messed up as it is, so I'll just cut & paste.

 

 

"The difference with entangles is always the special effect. The SFX of an entngle dictate how long it lingers. For instance Spider man's webbing he throws it and it's there if he has to get through it it's just as much an obstacle for him as the next guy which is not just similar to CK's entangle but almost identical in SFX concept. A dispel magic would more likely work on magic bonds since magical energy isn't a physical thing no if the spell summons physical chains then they wouldn't be able to be dispelled but by special effect they're just chains so things like escape artist would work and getting the person out is really no harder than getting normal chains off them."

 

I'm really not sure allowing SFX to have such an blatant effect is kosher in Hero. I'm going to move this to the HS questions and get an official answer.

[farik]

It's no more blatant an effect than

 

allowing a fire blast to start a fire

 

or

 

using an electrical blast to alert a teammate with detect electromagnetics of where he is located.

 

ad nauseum

[Blue]

Just thinking out loud here; An entangle is meant to... restrict the target. But let's say that this is built in such a way that the individual inside the bazillion BODY entangle is not restricted. The thing I'm wondering about is how the Blast gets out from the inside if it affects "living" things and the coral is a living thing. Wouldn't it have to eat through all the BODY?

 

And while it's not a sticky entangle, wouldn't it prohibit you from picking anything up, (Such as the money in the bank example) or at least prohibit you from releasing it?

[Fireg0lem]

Originally posted by Blue

Just thinking out loud here; An entangle is meant to... restrict the target. But let's say that this is built in such a way that the individual inside the bazillion BODY entangle is not restricted. The thing I'm wondering about is how the Blast gets out from the inside if it affects "living" things and the coral is a living thing. Wouldn't it have to eat through all the BODY?

 

It is defined as "Attacking target from the inside out," so it makes sense he'd be able to bypass the coral. It doesn't have "blocks sight," and rules-wise, the attack goes straight through because it is Stun Only vs. Power Defense.

 

 

And while it's not a sticky entangle, wouldn't it prohibit you from picking anything up, (Such as the money in the bank example) or at least prohibit you from releasing it?

 

[/b]

Probably, but who said he was a bank-robber? He could easily be a terrorist whose MO is showing up covered in coral, beating the crap out of anyone who opposes him, then dissolving things.

[Silbeg]

Indirect should be needed?

 

I am not 100% sure, but I believe that the powers would still not work, at least without the "Indirect" modifier added. I don't have my copy of 5ed handy, but I would still believe that any attack generated from inside the entrangle (as it is not defined as "Takes No Damage From Attacks", which would nullify its usefulness in this application".

 

In any case, I would rule (as a GM), that the entangle completely encases him. I would agree that he could fly, but that without "Indirect", he would not be able to bypass the entangle.

 

the attack goes straight through because it is Stun Only vs. Power Defense.

As for the attack being STUN only as an excuse that it would bypass the entangle, it also could not break the entangle. Unless expressly allowed for by the rules (and perhaps even then, due to the special effects!), II would rule that the attack hits the entangle, first, and fails to penetrate (as it does 0 BODY).

 

This would also be the case for the tranform. I would also disallow the flight to be usable on someone outside of the entangle, unless indirect.

 

----

 

Of course, the above are IMHO.

 

SIlbeg....

[Fireg0lem]

You make some good points, Silbeg. Perhaps a better idea to solve this problem would be to add "Line of Sight" to the BK Blast.

[Silbeg]

LIne of Site doesn't work...

 

A Power with this Advantage works on a Line of Sight basis, like Mental Powers, instead of following the usual rules for Ranged Attacks. This means, among other things that the Power is not subject to the Range Modifier, but can easily be blocked by intervening objects.

5ed, p172.

 

I would rule that the entangle itself was an intervening object. Indirect is still the way.

 

Silbeg...

[Fireg0lem]

Originally posted by Silbeg

LIne of Site doesn't work...

 

5ed, p172.

 

I would rule that the entangle itself was an intervening object. Indirect is still the way.

 

Silbeg...

 

But the entangle isn't opaque to sight...although perhaps it should be. When I rewrite the powers for a full character, assuming I don't get too lazy, I'll adress this issue. If he can't see the target, he shouldn't be able to target them with an indirect attack, and if he can, LOS should work.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Fireg0lem

But the entangle isn't opaque to sight...although perhaps it should be. When I rewrite the powers for a full character, assuming I don't get too lazy, I'll adress this issue. If he can't see the target, he shouldn't be able to target them with an indirect attack, and if he can, LOS should work.

 

So what does the entangle actually look like?

[Kristopher]

Not my concept, but I think it's a mass of coral, dense enough to provide lots of BODY if it builds up. IMO, it should be opaque to sight, at least.

[Blue]

Generally speaking I can't see through coral. Sure it's kind of like looking through bushes in that you can see someone standing on the other side. But if you're trying to look at them through a forest...

[Grond]

In the previous edition a bare power wich was grossly unbalanced in my opinion was HA; just 3 points per dice. With 60 Active Points you could have a 22d6 hand attack wich was stricly regular. I always considered it as "STR; Only to inflict damage (-1/2)", however, as it was probably meant to be in the beginning.

 

As for a "combined" powers, I had fun with this when thinking about the movie "Blob".

- 1d6 BODY Transfer, half to Growth, half to improve the maximum active points that can be gained by Transfer.

In short, you can grow without limits, until you either engulf the universe, or you're constrained in a box with 5 points of power defense

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Grond

In the previous edition a bare power wich was grossly unbalanced in my opinion was HA; just 3 points per dice. With 60 Active Points you could have a 22d6 hand attack wich was stricly regular. I always considered it as "STR; Only to inflict damage (-1/2)", however, as it was probably meant to be in the beginning.

 

Hand Attack still ends up at just over 3 pts/die. The only difference is that 60 Active Points now gets you 12 damage classes, instead of 20 damage classes.

[Agent X]

I like Mr. Connections for abusive power. Danger Sense, Clairsentience, Mind Scan, Telepathy... and Contacts with all of the most powerful heroes on the planet.

[farik]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Don't Make Me Laugh!

 

I just checked the FAQ as instructed by Steve and apparently a dispel is never supposed to work on an entangle regardless of SFX (unless by GM approval of course).