Christougher

bartener: does something seem off
waitres: it does
boucer: yes
custmer: definitely 
letter thief: [nods]

Clearly not a fan 😁

Here is another idea, that expands the concept that Complications are used to generate HAP, by applying it to limitations:
 
Limitations
Limitations are categorized between hard limitations, clearly defining the limits of a power, or situational limitations, limitations that are triggered by event or story elements which players and GM can control and influence. Hard Limitations work as per the normal rules. They are used to define a power and determine the final cost.
 
Situational Limitations do not factor into the cost of the power. They are activated by the player or the GM during play based on the narrative of the story. By calling a Limitation on him, the player gets 1 HAP and accept the consequences laid out by the GM and/or other players (note that the GM could turn down the activation of the Limitation). The GM can also call a Limitation on a player, with the same drawbacks and benefits stated above.  A player could turn down the activation from the GM by accepting a harsher consequence later in the story or by paying 1 HAP (GM’s choice). The future consequence must be related to the Limitation.
 
Which limitation is Hard and which is Situational is a campaign decision that GM and players must make.  There are four modes:
 
1) All Hard: This is the default mode found in the RAW. All Limitations are used to build powers and factor in the final cost.
 
2) Mixed: In this mode, the limitations are clearly divided between Hard Limitations and Situational Limitations. Which falls into what category is a campaign decision agreed between GM and players. Here is an example below:
 
Hard Limitations
Duration - Limitations Power has a worse than normal duration Concentration - Character has reduced DCV and PER Rolls when activating or using power Extra Time - Power takes longer than normal to activate or use Inaccurate - Power is less accurate than normal Linked - Power can only be used when another power is used No Conscious Control - Character cannot control use of power Perceivable - A normally invisible power is perceivable Range Limitations - Power has no range, or less range than normal, or functions less effectively at range Reduced Penetration - Power penetrates defenses less well than ordinary attacks Requires A Roll - Character must make a roll of some sort to use power Requires Multiple Users - Two or more characters must use power for it to work Side Effects - If power fails to work, character suffers harm Unified Power - Two or more powers are affected simultaneously by negative Adjustment Powers Variable Limitations - Character can change Limitations on power as a Full Phase Action  
Situational Limitations (The players or GM can activate it when it makes the story more interesting)
Always On - Power cannot be turned off, but it’s not necessarily always a problem Charges – No need to count charges. Endurance Limitations – Take a hint from HS6E1 pp46, remove END and replace it by the limitation Tiring. Pushing is automatically Tiring (or uses HAP instead). Focus - Power works through an object or device but it’s not necessarily always a problem Gestures - Character must make special, distinctive gestures to use power but it’s not necessarily always a problem Incantations - Character must speak special, distinctive words to use power but it’s not necessarily always a problem Limited Power - Power is restricted in some way defined by character Lockout - Using power prevents use of other powers Only In Alternate Identity - Power only works for one of the character’s identities Physical Manifestation - Power has a physical manifestation other characters can attack Restrainable - Grabs or Entangles prevent use of power  
3) All Situational: In this mode, power construction is greatly simplified. All Limitations are used as narrative tag to be used in game to create the story and generate HAP. In this mode, GM and character should review and simplify the Limitations available and might even make some exceptions. A Limited Range limitation works well as a Situational Limitation, but a No Range limitation might not. It could be removed entirely or kept as a Hard Limitation. Another way to resolve this is to turn some limitations around. For some limitations, it makes sense that by activating a limitation a character increases their power instead of getting 1 HAP. Concentration and Inaccurate are good example of this.
 
4) Fluid: This mode leaves the decision in the hand on the players. Player A might create a power with a specific number of Charges, with the Hard Limitation factored into the cost and Player B might use Charge as a Situational Limitation.  Player A might end up with a more powerful character on paper, but Player B might have a character with the ability to generate more HAP giving them a lot more narrative control. This mode requires the GM and players to experiment to ensure game balance.

I know that Transfer was removed, but I'm still playing mostly 5Er plus a few things stolen from 6E.  That right there basically proves my point: Instead of one clean and simple power, you have to go and link two powers.  And then I still have to Advantage around the forced self-only Aid for it to affect someone else.  If I want to lose the abilities I'm Aiding, then I have to apply Side Effects.  Altering the definition of Transfer to move points from A to B, and change who gains and who loses, covers all these cases in a much less complicated way.
 
Chris.

Sean Astin & His Daughter 20 Years Later
 

Now that ABBA is back together, there are reports that they will be touring with Elvis Costello. And I have to wonder, at an ABBA and Costello concert, who's on first?

Knock knock.
 
Who's there?
 
Goliath.
 
Goliath who? 
 
Go lieth down. Thou looketh tired.

Well I think all rules should be treated the same: follow these but allow for exceptions with good reason.  I used to complain about the rules and patterns and everything in music to my mom and she frustratingly, but wisely, taught me that we have to learn and follow the rules until we learn enough to start breaking them.

I've not tasted enough minions to even be able to determine their flavor palate.

The biggest problem I have with Duplication vs Summon is the way the two overlap, specifically "Disposable Duplicates" are crazy expensive and you have to do a lot of gyrations for them to work despite being relatively common in fiction.
 
By "Disposable Duplicates" I am referring to duplicates that in theory are just as powerful duplicates of the original but in practice are treated like mooks that the opponents plow through like they were nothing.  These are normally more or less identical to the original which makes them feel like duplicates but the original isn't actually harmed when they are killed and can just keep making more of them.  The fact that they are easily plowed through by the opposition and can die without anyone feeling bad about it makes it seem like a summon with lower def/stun/body than the original.  They sort of exist in this no man's land between Duplication and Summon.
 
Examples:
- Ultron's army in Avengers: Age of Ultron 
- the various Clone Jutsu from Naruto
- The Monkey King in some tellings of his story
 
So they sorta work like Summons rather than duplicates, but the fact they don't come from somewhere else, are totally loyal (they usually think of themselves as the same as the original), and are more or less identical to the original makes them feel like they should be duplicates.  The way to actually buy these characters "the hero way" is via Summon, usually with lots of loyalty advantages piled on.  Duplication just doesn't work the way these characters do in the fiction.
 
I'm a Hero gamer of many years and I am all about Special effect, but it bothers me that when someone makes a list of fictional characters that duplicate themselves Hero would tell you to buy about half of them with a summon & a ton of modifiers instead of using the Duplication power.  At minimum I feel like that is a failure in naming.
 

I know that Transfer was removed, but I'm still playing mostly 5Er plus a few things stolen from 6E.  That right there basically proves my point: Instead of one clean and simple power, you have to go and link two powers.  And then I still have to Advantage around the forced self-only Aid for it to affect someone else.  If I want to lose the abilities I'm Aiding, then I have to apply Side Effects.  Altering the definition of Transfer to move points from A to B, and change who gains and who loses, covers all these cases in a much less complicated way.
 
Chris.

Comparison is tough as neither power is common.  Summon was created for fantasy games and Duplication for Supers games, so I doubt they were ever really reconciled to the other power.


 
Summon requires a full phase, and the creature arrives stunned.  Duplicates require a half phase, and can act in their next phase (or Abort in their next segment), so duplication has the advantage here.


 
If I have multiple Summons, I don’t need an advantage to Summon more than one at a time. That limits Duplication, although since Duplicates are not task-limited, Duplicating in advance is much more viable.


 
Summon costs END, and Duplication does not.  That’s a +1/4 Advantage for Duplication (compared to END only to activate).


 
Duplicates are affected by, and affect, the base character’s damage when duplicating and recombining, an issue Summons do not share.


 
The Summoned being has to be compelled to perform EGO/5 tasks, so what’s that?  4? Recall that one phase of combat is a task.  When the roll is missed, the Summoned being is free to act normally.


 
Amicable beings still limit the number of tasks they will perform.  I’d consider a Duplicate at least Loyal, and the cost of extra tasks is not factored in at that advantage level.


 
If I have Duplicates with altered powers, I generally get to design them.  Summons are generally designed by the GM or pulled from standard campaign creatures.


 
So, can I simulate Duplication with Summon?  Sure, I guess.  I’d need 0 END (+1/2) and probably Devoted (+3/4) at a minimum, it would still take a full phase and they would arrive Stunned.  I’d get [ego/2] tasks out of them, so let’s double that for another +1/4.  Total advantages +1 1/2.


 
I could put Full Phase on my Duplication (-1/2) and Time Limit 1 minute (-2) if I plan to use them as combatants (like Summoned Monsters).  So, for a 400 point character, Summon costs 200 points and Duplication costs 23.  That’s quite a spread.  If I want multiple duplicates, the spread would drop quickly due to

the advantage for Rapid Duplication, though.  
 
Like I said, many differences.  I agree that "duplicate dies means points lost" is problematic, and I'd house rule it away. Most other "points are gone forever" limitations (like Charges don't recover and Independent have been written out).  But Duplication was designed for Supers, where death is rare at best.
 
 
Or +5 to double duplicates, and limit that to not add to total available at any one time.  Either way, though, you're losing points due to the possibility of duplicates dying.  I'd rather remove the orhan rule and allow death of a duplicate to be "permanent" as a radiation accident only - reconfigure the points.

So you're making an already expensive Power harder to use? Summon already has an opposed EGO roll with built in minuses and you only get EGO/4 rounds of combat without making an even more difficult opposed roll. You really don't get a lot for what you pay
 
Duplication guarantees a loyal fighter for as long as you want the Power active. Yes, it says the duplicate(s) are free willed but in the very next sentence it says the player has complete control of their actions. A GM making my duplicate mutiny would be taking over my PC directly. Unless I took a Psych Lim or this was given as a possibility beforehand, I'd feel betrayed.

I agree that the structure of Summon makes it awkward at best to use and suspect that the writers of Hero never actually used the power to test it out in practical play.  Yes, they're trying to keep it from being overpowered, but I think that they might have gone a bit overboard in that goal.
 
Possibly the best way to judge Summon would be against Mind Control because it gives roughly equivalent effect: an independently acting force carrying out orders.  Is the same level of point cost giving you roughly the same equivalent value in and out of combat?

Transfer officially states it takes points from an opponent and adds it to self.  Wouldn't a lot of builds be easier if it just applied 'from one target to another'?  This would allow healing type effects where the characteristics are donated by the healer or an (un)willing third party.  Perhaps a+1/4 advantage to change between operational modes would be needed.
 
Chris.
 

Is it okay to shoot a mime if you use a silencer? 
 
(Asking for a friend.)

Every year, hundreds of children are shipped off to mime school...
never to be heard from again.

That's DebataBull.

Why not?  It’s just a story about rock & roll.