Is Duplication balanced vs Summon?

[Christougher]

How are Duplication and Summon balanced against each other? 

 

In 5Er and 6E, it costs 80 points to create a 400 point duplicate, and the same 80 points for a 400 point summon.  The cost of higher powered, or additional bodies, appears to be the same.

 

The duplicate is controlled by me and absolutely loyal.  If the duplicate dies, it stays dead.  If I want a duplicate to have different powers than me it takes a +1 Advantage.

 

The summon has to be bribed or threatened to do a handful of things and then is done.  Or it takes a +1 advantage to make it as loyal as the duplicate, and I still don't control it.  If it dies I can just summon another, unless I take another +1 advantage to make it summon the same being.   If I want a summon to have different powers than me, it is free, unless I want to be able to have any powers, then it's a +1 advantage for Expanded Class.

 

Those are the differences in the power as I understand them.  The underlined portion is the basis of my question.  Why does it cost twice as much for a Summon to behave the same way as a Duplicate?   Do the other points listed under Summon justify this price?  Is there something else relevant that I am missing?

 

Chris.

 

[Grailknight]

Summon has no built in Lockout. You can only Summon one creature per use of the Power but nothing stops you from using it multiple times and having an army. A very loosely controlled army but while they may not be loyal they are not hostile unless antagonized or you take a Limitation. And it only takes a +1/4 to make them friendly.

[unclevlad]

But with only the +1/4 the number of services you get is limited, and what they'll do for you is somewhat constrained.

 

One big thing to remember is that you can invest in a Summon Multipower to get multiple types, rather than Expanded Class.  Summon is a Standard power;  Duplication is a Special power, so no framework.  So you could build a Summon for, let's say, aerial scouts to do recon, then drop them in favor of combat powers.

 

Another point:  Duplication as written, says the points the primary spent on the duplicate, are NOT available to the duplicates.  Even with some big limits, that's gonna knock a big chunk of the points off.  With a Summon, the full character points can be spent on the summoned critter.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Both summon and duplication (and follower for that matter) are a little bit off in cost because of how many more points it takes to make the same character in 6th but there's not an easy way to fix that.

[LoneWolf]

The fact is that summon is a lot more powerful than duplication.  That is why it cost more to get a similar effect.  What makes it more powerful is that your summoned creature can be killed and you can simply summon another one.   That allows you to use summon to create cannon fodder.  That cannot be done with duplication’s. The expanded class is also fairly inexpensive.  For a + 1/4 advantage I can summon up any lesser demon, and to summon any demon is only a + 1/2.     The +1 advantage listed in the original post allows you to summon any creature.   It is also not as expensive to get a summon who will obey you without needed to be forced.  Friendly is only a + 1/4 advantage.   Slavishly Loyal is a +1 advantage but for that the summon will be willing to perform suicidal tasks.

 

Looking at duplication it has a couple of major drawback compared to summon.  First and foremost is that if you duplicate dies you don’t get it back ever.  That also means the point you spent on that are gone for good.  If you only had one duplicate that means any points spent on the duplicate are permanently gone until you spend more points.  Even then the number of duplicates you get are permanently reduced.  Second duplicates are free willed which means they are not slavishly loyal.  The duplicate has the same mind as the base character so they will usually do what is in the best interest of the base character.   The players has pretty much total control over the duplicate, but they are unlikely to perform suicidal tasks like a summon (with the advantage) will.  Last but not least is the fact that by default the duplicate has the same abilities as the base character.  This means that duplication in its base form is not increasing your versatility,   
 

The cost increase for duplication and summoning from 5th edition to 6th edition is not anything that needs to be fixed.  The cost of a lot of powers changed between editions.  Density increase and shrinking both got a lot cheaper in 6th edition.  

[Christougher]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Both summon and duplication (and follower for that matter) are a little bit off in cost because of how many more points it takes to make the same character in 6th but there's not an easy way to fix that.

 

Your thread on same actually led to this one.   Though I'm not worrying about what you can build, but why the costs are the same but the benefits seem to be so dissimilar.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Summoning is pretty limited though.  The creatures comes through and can do nothing for a phase.  You have to negotiate, defeat in a battle of wills, or compel the creature to take action (or it gets more expensive to not do so).  Duplication is fired off right away.

 

Its a house rule, but I reject the "if they die the points you spent are gone forever" aspect.  Really?  My character loses character points permanently??  That sounds like a limitation, not a feature.

[dmjalund]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Its a house rule, but I reject the "if they die the points you spent are gone forever" aspect.  Really?  My character loses character points permanently??  That sounds like a limitation, not a feature.

buy resurrection regeneration (duplicates only)

[Hugh Neilson]

10 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The fact is that summon is a lot more powerful than duplication.  That is why it cost more to get a similar effect.  What makes it more powerful is that your summoned creature can be killed and you can simply summon another one.   That allows you to use summon to create cannon fodder.  That cannot be done with duplication’s. The expanded class is also fairly inexpensive.  For a + 1/4 advantage I can summon up any lesser demon, and to summon any demon is only a + 1/2.     The +1 advantage listed in the original post allows you to summon any creature.   It is also not as expensive to get a summon who will obey you without needed to be forced.  Friendly is only a + 1/4 advantage.   Slavishly Loyal is a +1 advantage but for that the summon will be willing to perform suicidal tasks.

 

Looking at duplication it has a couple of major drawback compared to summon.  First and foremost is that if you duplicate dies you don’t get it back ever.  That also means the point you spent on that are gone for good.  If you only had one duplicate that means any points spent on the duplicate are permanently gone until you spend more points.  Even then the number of duplicates you get are permanently reduced.  Second duplicates are free willed which means they are not slavishly loyal.  The duplicate has the same mind as the base character so they will usually do what is in the best interest of the base character.   The players has pretty much total control over the duplicate, but they are unlikely to perform suicidal tasks like a summon (with the advantage) will.  Last but not least is the fact that by default the duplicate has the same abilities as the base character.  This means that duplication in its base form is not increasing your versatility,    

Comparison is tough as neither power is common.  Summon was created for fantasy games and Duplication for Supers games, so I doubt they were ever really reconciled to the other power.

 

Summon requires a full phase, and the creature arrives stunned.  Duplicates require a half phase, and can act in their next phase (or Abort in their next segment), so duplication has the advantage here.

 

If I have multiple Summons, I don’t need an advantage to Summon more than one at a time. That limits Duplication, although since Duplicates are not task-limited, Duplicating in advance is much more viable.

 

Summon costs END, and Duplication does not.  That’s a +1/4 Advantage for Duplication (compared to END only to activate).

 

Duplicates are affected by, and affect, the base character’s damage when duplicating and recombining, an issue Summons do not share.

 

The Summoned being has to be compelled to perform EGO/5 tasks, so what’s that?  4? Recall that one phase of combat is a task.  When the roll is missed, the Summoned being is free to act normally.

 

Amicable beings still limit the number of tasks they will perform.  I’d consider a Duplicate at least Loyal, and the cost of extra tasks is not factored in at that advantage level.

 

If I have Duplicates with altered powers, I generally get to design them.  Summons are generally designed by the GM or pulled from standard campaign creatures.

 

So, can I simulate Duplication with Summon?  Sure, I guess.  I’d need 0 END (+1/2) and probably Devoted (+3/4) at a minimum, it would still take a full phase and they would arrive Stunned.  I’d get [ego/2] tasks out of them, so let’s double that for another +1/4.  Total advantages +1 1/2.

 

I could put Full Phase on my Duplication (-1/2) and Time Limit 1 minute (-2) if I plan to use them as combatants (like Summoned Monsters).  So, for a 400 point character, Summon costs 200 points and Duplication costs 23.  That’s quite a spread.  If I want multiple duplicates, the spread would drop quickly due to

the advantage for Rapid Duplication, though.

 

10 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Summoning is pretty limited though.  The creatures comes through and can do nothing for a phase.  You have to negotiate, defeat in a battle of wills, or compel the creature to take action (or it gets more expensive to not do so).  Duplication is fired off right away.

 

Its a house rule, but I reject the "if they die the points you spent are gone forever" aspect.  Really?  My character loses character points permanently??  That sounds like a limitation, not a feature.

 

Like I said, many differences.  I agree that "duplicate dies means points lost" is problematic, and I'd house rule it away. Most other "points are gone forever" limitations (like Charges don't recover and Independent have been written out).  But Duplication was designed for Supers, where death is rare at best.

 

7 hours ago, dmjalund said:

buy resurrection regeneration (duplicates only)

 

Or +5 to double duplicates, and limit that to not add to total available at any one time.  Either way, though, you're losing points due to the possibility of duplicates dying.  I'd rather remove the orhan rule and allow death of a duplicate to be "permanent" as a radiation accident only - reconfigure the points.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Comparison is tough as neither power is common.  Summon was created for fantasy games and Duplication for Supers games, so I doubt they were ever really reconciled to the other power.

 

I agree, its probably worth a serious examination of different powers as to how they work universally rather than building around Champions, should a 7th edition ever come out (please, not for a few more decades)

 

My house rule is that its a limitation for duplicates to disappear permanently, and ordinarily they recover as if they were damaged: Body recover per week until fully healed, then you can use them again.  Yes, the classic example of duplication is Triplicate Lass in the Legion of Superheroes who lost one of her duplicates permanently to death and became Duo Damsel but let us not be trapped by too-faithful copying of comic book examples.

 

[archer]

Having your Summon be an uncontrolled monster isn't always a bad thing.

 

Summon it at range inside the walls of some city while you're outside the walls, for example. 

 

If there are monsters rampaging through the city, the leaders of the city are much more likely to see the need to hire adventurers to take care of the problem.

 

Though come to think of it, that's more of a strategy for my "neutral evil" mercenary character than for standard heroes....  

[Greywind]

12 minutes ago, archer said:

Having your Summon PC be an uncontrolled monster isn't always a bad thing.

 

Incredible Hulk anyone?

[Hugh Neilson]

9 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

My house rule is that its a limitation for duplicates to disappear permanently, and ordinarily they recover as if they were damaged: Body recover per week until fully healed, then you can use them again.  Yes, the classic example of duplication is Triplicate Lass in the Legion of Superheroes who lost one of her duplicates permanently to death and became Duo Damsel but let us not be trapped by too-faithful copying of comic book examples.

 

The Legion model can be simulated just as well by a radiation accident - one duplicate was killed; you can spend that whopping 5 points somewhere else if you want to be a Duo Damsel, or the Triplicate can recover later.

8 hours ago, archer said:

Having your Summon be an uncontrolled monster isn't always a bad thing.

 

Summon it at range inside the walls of some city while you're outside the walls, for example. 

 

If there are monsters rampaging through the city, the leaders of the city are much more likely to see the need to hire adventurers to take care of the problem.

 

Though come to think of it, that's more of a strategy for my "neutral evil" mercenary character than for standard heroes....  

That works better if Summon were not "no range" - "the Summoned being appears in the nearest unoccupied space where it will fit".  Of course, you could make it Ranged, GM permitting.

[unclevlad]

21 hours ago, dmjalund said:

buy resurrection regeneration (duplicates only)

 

A plausible house rule, if you don't want to worry about duplicate deaths, is that the duplicates get this in place of the base character's duplication cost, and that this in itself doesn't force an altered duplicate.

 

On 8/29/2021 at 9:09 PM, LoneWolf said:

The fact is that summon is a lot more powerful than duplication.  That is why it cost more to get a similar effect.  What makes it more powerful is that your summoned creature can be killed and you can simply summon another one.   That allows you to use summon to create cannon fodder.  That cannot be done with duplication’s. The expanded class is also fairly inexpensive.  For a + 1/4 advantage I can summon up any lesser demon, and to summon any demon is only a + 1/2.     The +1 advantage listed in the original post allows you to summon any creature.   It is also not as expensive to get a summon who will obey you without needed to be forced.  Friendly is only a + 1/4 advantage.   Slavishly Loyal is a +1 advantage but for that the summon will be willing to perform suicidal tasks.

 

"Friendly" does not include "willing to stick around in a firefight" IMO.  If you want that, you need at least the +3/4.  Also, from 6E1 290:

 

Quote

Generally, a character who abuses or takes gross advantage of an Amicable Summonee loses the benefits of that Advantage until he makes amends. However, for a +1 Advantage,
the Summoned being is Slavishly Devoted to the Summoner and will do whatever he asks without question or complaint (this is perfect for Summoned zombies or robots).

But at that point, it's probable that the GM will say, you have to spend considerable time directing them.

 

Plus, at this point, that's a LOT!!!! of active points to get anything much.  And since Summon costs END, that means each one you Summon is a pretty notable END hit.

 

I think Hugh hit on a good point:  Summon is a classic fantasy spell, and it's built that way.  It's really a core effect.  It's also, quite often, the summoner's threat, rather than a threat multiplier;  or, it's the way to allow a solo villain challenge a team.  OTOH, Duplication is for supers.  This particular implementation is very specifically the Duo Damsel/Triplicate Girl style...they're biological duplicates.  They're automatically threat/force multipliers, because they're action multipliers.  With a bit of work, it's not *that* hard to get the cost of duplication down to manageable in a higher-power campaign, so each duplicate may be a fairly significant threat.

 

 

[Grailknight]

The +1/4 Amicable says that the Summons wants to help the Summoner akin to Moderate Psych Lim and +1/2 becomes a Strong Psych Lim. Requiring the +3/4 Total Psych Lim level to enter combat seems to be counter to that. It also discounts the possibility that the Summons might be inclined to do the requested task naturally. A PC with a similar Psych would need a good reason not to do take the action and you don't summon cowardly creatures to fight battles for you. The Summons may flee after a few setbacks but an Advantaged Summons should get better performance than  a basic one where you have to win a contest of wills. 

[LoneWolf]

The creature summoned with the friendly advantage will probably not fight to the death, but will probably be ok with fighting in a lot of circumstances.  It will also depend on what you summon and if they have any complications that come into play.  You summon up an Angel and they will probably be willing to help you fighting a demon.   

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

The creature summoned with the friendly advantage will probably not fight to the death, but will probably be ok with fighting in a lot of circumstances.  It will also depend on what you summon and if they have any complications that come into play.  You summon up an Angel and they will probably be willing to help you fighting a demon.   

 

This, exactly.  An Angel need not be amicable to choose to target a Demon.  The Angel might even be grateful to be summoned to deal with such a threat. A Summoned wolf may be less inclined to engage in combat with a flaming, brimstone-scented demon. A lion is likely easier to persuade into combat than a sheep.

 

A PC will certainly engage in combat for someone they are on amicable terms with, or often someone who shells out some cash.  Are they so unusual that Summons should behave markedly differently?

[unclevlad]

Yes, I'd still require higher.

 

4 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The creature summoned with the friendly advantage will probably not fight to the death, but will probably be ok with fighting in a lot of circumstances.  It will also depend on what you summon and if they have any complications that come into play.  You summon up an Angel and they will probably be willing to help you fighting a demon.   

 

The Amicable advantage acts like a Complication applied to the critter...but it's not a complication on the summoned critter's sheet.  What you're doing here is taking a complication on the critter and trying to use it to say you have a larger Amicable.  At no cost.  That's a huge red flag IMO.

 

At the VERY least, some form of amends *should be* required afterward.  The angel might be willing...but that doesn't mean it's happy to be dragged into whatever mess the summoner's in.

 

 

[Greywind]

They aren't the same power. They don't do the same things. Following that, do they need to be balanced against each other?

[Grailknight]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Yes, I'd still require higher.

 

 

The Amicable advantage acts like a Complication applied to the critter...but it's not a complication on the summoned critter's sheet.  What you're doing here is taking a complication on the critter and trying to use it to say you have a larger Amicable.  At no cost.  That's a huge red flag IMO.

 

At the VERY least, some form of amends *should be* required afterward.  The angel might be willing...but that doesn't mean it's happy to be dragged into whatever mess the summoner's in.

 

 

 

Amicable literally says the creature summoned behaves as if it has a  Psych Lim at a particular level. Since the GM has to approve all Summons writeups what stops it from being included?  You add it to the sheet and don't give any points for it.

 

Also Amicable is an Advantage, it should be better than a straight Summon where the creature will fight to the death if it loses a contest of wills. Otherwise, it would be better to just spend those points on bonuses to the EGO Roll.

 

It's not like the Summon is going to be in multiple combats. At EGO/4, getting a turn would be a big deal for most. Compare that to Duplication which sticks around until you want it to end and won't attack the prime without a Limitation being taken. Yes you can win another contest of wills, but that's risky.

[unclevlad]

If you're not taking Amicable and trying to force the critter to fight, I'm giving the critter a major bonus on its Ego roll.

 

And let's recognize something.  The EGO vs EGO roll, the summoner is at -1 per 10 active points in the Summon...so even a 200 point Summon it's -4.   So that first +1/4 from Amicable is buying quite a bit, even if it's only negating that initial roll.

 

Summon, perhaps more than most powers, is wildly variable, depending on what gets allowed.  I'd rather start with narrower restrictions.  You want it to fight for you?  Pay for it.

 

 

[LoneWolf]

Like anything in the Hero System special effect is everything, that also includes advantages.  The special effect of your Amicable advantage may be the fact you are using a spell granted by your god to summon up an angel that serves the same god.  If that is the case the angel is probably not going to object to much to fighting for you.  At the + ¼ level they will fight against foes they can easily defeat.  A + ½ would probably mean they would fight against an equal opponent.  At the + ¾ level they will fight against a stronger opponent, but probably not to the death.  At the +1 level they will fight anything and continue fighting to the death. It could also be the special effect of a costly material component; this would make sense for a demon.  The reason it is Amicable is you have already paid its price. 

 

Another thing to consider is if the creature summoned actually dies when killed.  A lot of summons in fiction don’t actually die when they are “killed”, they are simply banished back to where they came from.  Often being killed will limit how soon they can be summoned again.  If the summoned creature does not actually die then they will probably be more willing to fight for the person summoning them. It may not even consider being killed to be a negative outcome, especially if it end all other obligations.  I could easily see a Demon who is summoned by being offered a soul in exchange and then only having to fight a short time because he was killed being ok with this.   He still gets to keep the soul and now does not owe you anymore tasks.  If you want to summon him again you need a new soul.  
 

[dmjalund]

if you want to treat duplicates as minions, use Summon, else use Duplication

[Grailknight]

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

If you're not taking Amicable and trying to force the critter to fight, I'm giving the critter a major bonus on its Ego roll.

 

And let's recognize something.  The EGO vs EGO roll, the summoner is at -1 per 10 active points in the Summon...so even a 200 point Summon it's -4.   So that first +1/4 from Amicable is buying quite a bit, even if it's only negating that initial roll.

 

Summon, perhaps more than most powers, is wildly variable, depending on what gets allowed.  I'd rather start with narrower restrictions.  You want it to fight for you?  Pay for it.

 

 

 

So you're making an already expensive Power harder to use? Summon already has an opposed EGO roll with built in minuses and you only get EGO/4 rounds of combat without making an even more difficult opposed roll. You really don't get a lot for what you pay

 

Duplication guarantees a loyal fighter for as long as you want the Power active. Yes, it says the duplicate(s) are free willed but in the very next sentence it says the player has complete control of their actions. A GM making my duplicate mutiny would be taking over my PC directly. Unless I took a Psych Lim or this was given as a possibility beforehand, I'd feel betrayed.

[Greywind]

Summon brings in minions of some flavor.

 

Duplication brings in another version of the character itself.