JeffreyWKramer

I definitely wouldn't use Shapeshifting in this case. And again, I would go with Multiform rather than Only In Hero ID. If you do OIHID, the character's personality and Psych Lims will apply whether he's in human or demon form, which does not seem to reflect the character you described to start this thread. You can't really take the OIHID Limitation for separate Multiforms, though - you just buy different Powers, Skills, etc. for the separate forms. Different forms with Multiform need look nothing alike or be the same size - recall the example in the book of the guy who is normally a human but can turn into an eagle, a tyrannosaurus rex, etc. Also, noted again, Growth Always On is not technically legal in 5E, and is better reflected via purchasing the extra Characteristics and KB resistance, and taking combined Physical Limitation/Distinctive Appearance Disads. As to the Full Phase Activation, the Multiform Power can be purchased with the Limitation "Extra Time - Full Phase", a -1/2 Limitation.

I think a better, and much less problematic, way to do this would be to buy some Absorbtion Linked to the Missile Deflection, and to have this the Absorbtion feed into an END Battery that powers up some sort of ranged attack. Actually, even this might be a bit broken, as it bypasses the typical "Absorbtion does not act as a defense" and the principle that one has to be hit by something to Absorb it, but it seems a lot less problematic than Delayed Reflection. If anyone really wants to, I suppose one could toss these ideas past Steve for a ruling regarding legality.

Re: Help with a Hulk-like character... Good character concept. As I have said before, I absolutely *love* 5E Multiform! To answer your questions: 1) You can and probably should have the Accidental Change Disadvantage, and possibly take it more than once to reflect different conditions that trigger the change. The thing to keep in mind is that Accidental Change is a Disadvantage, so it gives you no points if the conditions that trigger the change don't disadvantage your character (it may still be okay to take some 0-point Disads, though, to reflect the way your character works - the Demon form having Disads like "Revert from Demon to Human when out of combat for more than 1 minute" would be a -0 Lim). Things like "Change from the Jack to Demon form whenever supervillains are around" isn't a DIsad, but "Change whenever he observes violence" or "Whenever angered or frightened" are both Disads. You might also define Accidental Changes for both Forms - maybe certain kinds of attacks (touch of a holy item or holy water, for example) cause the demon to revert to Jack, which could be a major liability in the midst of combat. In any case, if you want the normal form to have no control over the change, you have a couple options. First, you could give the Multiform Power the Limitation "No Conscious Control." That puts the change entirely at GM option, and is probably not the best option. A better option would be to purchase your Multiform with the Limitation (Limited Power) "Change only occurs when triggered by Accidental Change conditions." Now, it might seem funky to have a character save points on a Power via Limitation and also get Disad points for the same condition, but one should keep in mind, having no conscious control of using one's primary Power is a pretty major Limitation. The exact value of this Limitation would be up to the GM, but I would suggest anywhere from -1/2 to -1, depending on the number and variety of conditions that trigger the change. 2) I think having Accidental Changes define the only ways your character changes form is adequate for reflecting this aspect of the character. 3) Just a special effect. BTW, as to the "no clue" thing, I assume you took the "Multiform Amnesia" Psych Lim (either on the Jack form, or on both?). As to the Demon form - it looks pretty good, but I'd ask the DM what typical brick power ranges are for the campaign. The Demon's initial strength starts out low for a brick, but it has the potential to get quite hefty through the Absorbtion. If that's the effect you want (the more he gets hit, the tougher he gets), go for it! The "Growth, Always On" routine no longer exists in 5E, though - you get the same effect now by purchasing the appropriate points in Characteristics, then taking a Physical Limitation + Distinctive Appearance Disad to reflect the character's unusual size. And I would definitely *not* buy down END. First, the Demon doesn't have Reduced END on STR, and as that absorbtion kicks in, you'll be spending a lot of END on using the STR (7 per attack when at max STR). Second, pushing your STR is one of the joys of playing a brick, so give yourself plenty of END to play with! I didn't bother adding up points to see if you spent all 350, but if you didn't, I'd jack up some stats. Demons are supposed to be scary, so I'd boost PRE - as is now, your demon is about as impressive as the average guy on the street. I'd also either boost EGO or buy some Mental Defense, otherwise this guy is going to be tearing out his teammates' lungs the first time you run into a mentalist. Some extra defenses to reflect Demonic resistance to Fire might also be good (Extra ED, Resistant, only vs. Fire, -1) Good basic character, though! Have fun!!

Re: Linked to desolid You might not technically use "Linked", but looking at the Limitation costs for Linked can provide an idea what it would be worth to have the power work only when Desolid... and in this case, the answer is little to nothing.

Re: VPP without AP limit Is there any official rule allowing this at all? I would expect not, and for good reason. The second paragraph in the VPP description in HERO SYSTEM 5E states "No Power in a VPP can have an Active Point cost greater than the Pool cost." Quite frankly, the whole idea sounds horridly broken.

Re: Desolid and OIHID If the powers that Affect Physical World work only when the character is Desolid, they should be taken with the "Linked" Limitation, at whatever value is appropriate for the Powers in question. As to OIHID, is the Desolidification OIHID, and is that appropriate for the character in question? If either answer is "no", then I'd say the powers in question should also not get that Limitation.

Actually, that's Kyle. Hilarious post, though!

Well, I didn't bring up the 20 limit, but the write-ups for top-line agents/military sorts in the published books don't give them Oculon-level SPD/DEX. The higher-quality VIPER sorts, for example, are roughly on par with the average members of elite Special Forces units, but they don't have SPD/DEX on par with Foxbat. Now the very *best* SEALs, yeah, they would be at that level. Maybe Jordan would be, too, though I really doubt he has that much an agility/reaction time/coordination advantage over the average SEAL or Ranger (though he has a lot more 2-point CSL levels in throwing). I did note in my post that the cited scores beat out 99% of the elite, though (pro athletes, special forces, etc.), and I still stand by that.

Mr. Terrific (currently in JSA) is probably the best tactician in the current DCU. Oracle is also very good, though she has obvious limits as a field leader. As for overall leadership, Mr. Terrific is probably more or less on par with Nightwing. Wonder Woman *should* be very good at tactics and leadership, but this hasn't ever really been portrayed. Apparently Athena shorted her in the gift department. One recent JSA showed Captain Marvel actually using his "Wisdom of Solomon" to good tactical effect, but that is ignored most of the time. For all he shows good tactical sense, I'm inclined to think the S in SHAZAM stands for Shemp. As to MU detectives... yeesh, good question. Moon Knight might be it.

Drain PRE, defined as inflicting uncontrollable diarrhea on the unfortunate target of the attack - that tends to drain one's confidence and make one a lot less impressive. I seem to recall Jean Grey doing this to someone in NEW X-MEN sometime in the past couple years. BTW, messing with seratonin and dopamine (neurotransmitters) are also good ways to simulate depression (SPD/EGO Drain) and psychosis (Mental Illusions, no control over what hallucinaton the target experiences).

Technically true, but SPD 6 and DEX 26 would still surpass 99% of the Navy SEALs, master martial artists and Olympic athletes out there. The Speed doesn't bother me - it doesn't take much effort to look at something, after all - but it is kinda odd that Oculon has better agility and eye-hand coordination than Michael Jordan did in his prime. Lightning Reflexes for optic attacks might have been more appropriate... but it wouldn't have been as cost-effective, given that you'd also have to buy DCV levels to keep him from being a sitting duck. Ah, well. Suspension of disbelief. Game mechanics are never perfect when applied to reality, and to expect them to be so for a superhero game is definitely a folly.

My personal feeling is that Penetrating is not under- or over-priced, but rather that in some campaigns, it (and AP) show up far, far too often. This forces people to buy Hardened defenses to cope, which means more points have to be allocated there, which people find annoying. Maybe it's the damn Wolverine fetish still lingering on. Most players (thankfully) aren't horribly attracted to the idea of attack powers that do enough BODY to disintegrate battleships (i.e., high-dice KAs), but many are attracted to the idea of a smaller attack that is potentially lethal - or at least significantly damaging - to virtually anyone. That's fine, I suppose... but not if everyone has that sort of attack. I've seen campaigns in which 4 of 5 PCs had at least one AP or Penetrating attack (KA or EB), either as their primary attack or as a Multipower slot. Short, Hairy Mutant-Man had his Penetrating HKA claws, Power Armor Man had his AP RKA, Magic Woman had her AP EB and Speed Man had his Autofire Penetrating HA. Sucks to be 3/4 of the non-mastervillains written up in the published HERO products if you run into that team, for sure! Pretty soon everyone from Firewing to Foxbat to even Bulldozer, Green Dragon and Cheshire Cat are sporting Hardened Defenses. Lotsa tough-skinned folk out there, I guess. Even worse, I've seen and been in campaigns in which every single villain had an AP or Penetrating attack. Even the flying brick has Penetrating STR. Pretty soon, characters like Speed Man, Magic Woman and Speed Man start getting game stats more appropriate for Turtle Man, Abrams Tank Man and Spent-Uranium Woman. AP and Penetrating should be unusual, not par-for-the-course - most EBs and KAs should be just that. When they're common, after awhile the players then start purchasing Hardened on their defenses as a matter of course... and then the double-AP or AP, Penetrating attacks start showing up... it becomes an arms race.

Per p. 37 of the FAQ, any advantages on DR and on the base PD/ED have to match. This was explicitly stated to be the case with Hardened.

Re: Tangentially relevent question... I don't see anything in the rules that precludes a Continuous Power from also being Persistent. I think the line about being wary of Persistent attack Powers really is intended to more reflect active attack ones. Nobody wants to put up with a Continuous, Persistent, 0-END BODY Drain. Damage Shield's offensive capacity, though, is inherently easy to avoid, by simply avoiding HTH range with the character with DS. As written, you'd need to purchase both Advantages for an Always On Damage Shield, before applying the "Always On" Limitation. EDIT: Monolith beat me to responding.

Re: Variable Effect Actually, I don't see this as a significant problem. The potential advantages are balanced by the potential risk. Keep in mind, this Advantage doesn't allow one to affect just any four random Powers at once - rather, it simultaneously affects four Powers or Characteristics of a given special effect. That is an advantage for you if you use Absorbtion or Aid to boost four of your light-based Powers (say, EB, Force Field, Flash and Desolid) all at once, but it's a risk if you run into Captain Light-Drain, who is able to hit all four of those at once. Having a coherent, unifying character theme has lots of advantages (reflected in the relatively high power at low price provided by Mulipowers, ECs and VPPs), but it also carries a bit of risk that balances out those benefits. Also keep in mind that in the case of most Adjustment Powers, buying the Advantage to affect various Powers of a given special effect simultaneously imposes a Limitation, in that the Power then *only* affects that special effect. It sucks if you're the Human Scorch and you go up against Fire Fighter, who purchased Ranged Drain that works simultaneously on up to four Fire Powers, but Fire Fighter can't do his Drain at all against the Scorch's non-flaming teammates. In some ways that limits him more than if he'd just bought Drain vs. STR or EB, which gives him the potential to affect a lot wider variety of characters. Absorbtion doesn't carry this Limitation, as it's inherently self-only - so you lose nothing and gain lots by deciding that it simultaneously adds to four of your related Powers. Absorbtion has its own inherent limits, though, which make this non-problematic. In the case of Aid, it potentially limits things a lot, as it's rare that a character and his buddies all have the same special effects. In campaigns where this is *not* the case - perhaps one in which all the PCs were mystics/supernatural beings, or mentalists, or mutants, or gadgeteers - I suppose the GM might disallow or charge more for the Variable Effect Advantage, but I'd be inclined to just congratulate the player on making a character with team dynamics in mind.

Re: Too Cheap of a Power Combo? Well, as others have summarized: Keep in mind that the BOECV EGO Drain is still visible, unless it is bought with Invisible Power Effects. BOECV does not automatically provide all qualities of Mental Powers, including automatic Invisible effects. It does become visible to Mental Awareness, though. Keep in mind also that even if the power itself is Invisible, the character will still be aware of its effects, and will probably do something about this long before his or her EGO goes negative. Even on a maxed roll, the 2d6 EGO Drain will drain a maximum of 6 EGO a shot, so unless your PCs have the EGO scores of hamsters, they will get to react before they get Drained down to zombie-land. In summary, the basic idea is sound, but to work it effectively, the villain has to spend a lot more points. I'd still tend to go with Mind Control in most situations.

The only one of these that is a major issue for me, frankly, is Instant Change. I don't think the current construct (a couple points of Cosmetic Transform) really works, particularly if one's hero ID also includes Foci, power armor, etc. Changing from clothing to items like that is a lot more than a cosmetic change, and buying it as a Major Transform is cost-prohibitive. I also agree that Damage Shield is a bit overpriced as is, but I'd rather that be the case than having it be under-priced and having it be a common Power. Just for argument sake - do you who dislike the current cost of Damage Shield think the cost would be reasonable if it allowed you to do DS damage along with HTH Combat Maneuvers (i.e., functioning offensively as a HA/KA/etc. and defensively as a Damage Shield? Life Support is indeed a bit too expensive, IMHO. If you want to play an android/golem sort of character who is immune to lots of things that affect true life, you have to pile on a lot more points now. I think it might have been good if one had the choice of a few bits and pieces at current price, or buying the full package for a bit of a discount, but that does encourage Min/Maxing, which is why the current rules aren't a bigger issue for me. I would have kept Regen as a separate power, personally, but I don't mind it working differently than standard Healing. Really, I use HERO 98% for superhero gaming anyhow, and just how common are healing powers in comics? Healing just isn't an issue for me.

I have used the Blood in previous CHAMPIONS campaigns - actually, they were a significant factor in my first 4E campaign, which included a PC with a mystery background due to amnesia, who ended up being of the Blood - and have considered adapting them for 5E. They're a very cool concept.

I was actually in a campaign long ago with a situation much like this - there was someone innocent in Stronghold that had special knowledge that was needed to foil a VIPER plot. The solution we came up with was to get one of our team members put *in* Stronghold. The way we did this was to sneak the shapeshifting member of the group into the Federal holding facility where another villain (someone with ice powers - it may have been Freon, I can't recall) was being held. We spirited that crook out from custody then the shapeshifter took his place, posing as this villain and wearing the anti-power device that was set against ice powers (and thus did nothing vs. this character's own form-change powers). Once he was transported to Stronghold, he dropped the power-shackles, turned liquid and oozed out of his heated cell (calibrated against ice powers, again), then used Stealth, Security Systems and his Shapeshifting to get into the desired cell, shut it down and get far enough with the innocent for the rest of the team to help him out. The whole adventure was fun. Along the way, the cold villain escaped from the rest of the team and had to be recaptured, then the whole team ended up being hunted by the government for awhile for the break-out, until we managed to squash the VIPER plot and obtained proof along the way to clear the guy we'd rescued.

Activation Roll works well for some sorts of powers, such as partial Armor that might or might not block a given attack, but as written, it works poorly for some interesting effects with Persistent powers. For example, using it with Multiform - someone may want to have the ability to take another form, but have that ability be unreliable (as has sometimes been the case with the Hulk) without having to worry that he or she will change back and forth between forms every phase. What would be a reasonable value of such a Limitation? Would one step down on the table (i.e., Activation 14- only to activate the Power would be worth -1/4 rather than the usual -1/2) be reasonable, following the pattern for Costs Endurance (which is a -1/2 Limitation if the END cost is charged each Phase but a -1/4 Limitation if it costs END only to activate the Power)? BTW, I'm assuming that this would be an issue with Multiform, Duplication, etc. even though the rules for Activation Roll on p. 180 specify that one must roll each phasse to use or maintain "even if the Power is Constant" (i.e., the text does not specify Persistent), as Armor (also a Persistent Power) is one of the classic examples for Activation Roll (and one included on the sidebar on p. 180).

Ah, I misread part of your initial post. My error. As to the second part of your quote above, I forgot that it was only for KAs. That's a significant Limitation, so in a 60 AP campaign, I'd probably give it an additional -1/2 Limitation (-1 total, with the "stun only" Limitation). I wouldn't give it more than that, though, as in a 60 AP campaign, your defenses will generally prevent any BODY from getting through. In the campaign you're describing, though, it sounds like high-power KAs are pretty common, so there it would probaby be worth a bit more - maybe a -1 1/4 total Limitation.

I am just starting to read UMA, actually, so I hadn't gotten to that point yet. Having done so now, I can say... ouch! Definitely not cost-effective.

It partly depends how frequent large and/or double-AP/double-Penetrating KAs are in the campaign. Remember, with 15 points of Hardened rPD, a normal 4d6 KA won't do body on the average roll. If you're in a very high-powered campaign where large KAs and/or multiple levels of AP/Penetrating are in common, I suppose a -1/2 Limitation would be warranted, but in many campaigns (including any with an cap of around 60 active points in attack), that Limitation would probably only be worth -1/4.

I definitely need to get that book. None of the local stores have it, and I don't particulary trust any of them to be timely on special orders (based on past experience), so it looks like HERO will make more bucks direct off me. Oh, and while I didn't state it clearly, my initial CSL idea did include a mix of some pure levels (precog) vs. some with the "minds" limitation, to cover that mix of telepathic and precog abilities - Mentat would get a better read on (i.e., be better at hitting/dodging) opponents with minds than those without, but still have some enhanced ability (via unconscious precog) to launch and dodge other sorts of opponents. No comment on the EGO-based Martial Arts, though, Steve?

Okay, I've been tossing around some odd character and Power Advantage ideas. One character idea I came up with was a psionic martial artist. I'm trying to figure out how to build this character both effectively (both in terms of cost and in terms of him being effective in-game) and also within both the letter and the spirit of the game rules... and to determine whether it's worth the bother. The special effect I'm going for is a character who is a reasonably skilled martial artist, and who has an advantage over most other martial artists in that, through unconscious/instantaneous precognition and telepathy, he can read his opponents' moves, thus having an advantage in both attacking and dodging opponents. For ease of reference, rather than saying "the character" all the time, I'm going to call this hypothetical character "Mentat." Now, the safest way to do this would be to give Mentat lots of 5-CSVs for HTH and DCV, with some having the Limitation that they don't work against unliving/unthinking opponents such as zombies or automatons, or perhaps against opponents with various levels of Mental Defense (he can't read them as easily). That is easy, and workable, and it's probably the best way to portray the effect I'm looking for. But - and here's an idea I can't completely let go, even though I also can't figure out just how it would work - what about buying Mentat's martial arts maneuvers as Based on ECV? Is there a way this could be both legal and workable without all sorts of odd rules twinks? As I see it, the attacks would still go vs. normal defenses (PD) rather than Mental Defense - he's still punching or kicking someone, not doing Ego Attacks - and Mentat would act on his EGO rather than his DEX, and use ECV+martial maneuver bonuses/penalties vs ECV to determine whether or not he hits. Problems with this idea include: 1) What about opponents with no EGO, like automations.. or just punching doors, walls, etc. Would such an attack construct default to DEX then, and is this legal? 2) Would Mentat have to also buy the BOECV Advantage on his Strength (perhaps with the Limitation "Only in HTH Combat," -1/4) and/or on any weapons (HA) he used with the martial arts, via weapons elements? 3) What about the concept of Mentat being hard to hit by opponents he can read? Should opponents have to go their ECV vs. his (which seems blatantly broken), or OCV vs. his ECV (which also seems a bit funky), or would they still go OCV vs. DCV, with his Ego Martial Arts providing no advantage (aside from any DCV modifiers provided by martial maneuvers)? The concept makes my head hurt, but it's also intriguing. Any ideas?