Duke Bushido

Thanks folks! I won't say it wasn't fun, because it was. Grueling, tiresome, trudging fun....

Okay, guys. It's done. Now I've got to get Jason's attention and get it to him. Then it's on to the next one: I reckon I'll start with the first few Adventurers Clubs that a forum member was kind enough to loan me before deciding where to go next. Star HERO (pet project) and Cyber HERO got back-burnered now that there are actual scans of those products in existence (though really: they could be a lot better. ). I'm going to tell you straight-up that there is a thing in the Western HERO final version that bugs me: The spine and the rear cover don't align quite properly. However, I'm done. I'm just done. I've been using my precious and rare spare time on this, wedging it in here and there-- sometimes working on it _literally_ less than five minutes at a time, and what? Since November last year? I'm done. I'm including the covers and spine as separate elements for anyone wishing to make corrections on their own. I know it was a labor of love, but I just can't look at it any more...... Birdy's got to get the hell out of this nest!

I accept your quibble, and do not argue with it. I would, in fact, use it to support the "GM builds the equipment" comment I mentioned above: at some point, someone built those weapons in HERO terms. Now I'm not saying that they priced them all out with active and real points and focus rules, or anything else, but they were built in this case by a faceless GM. Most likely Steve Peterson, when he created those weapons for the Champions example weapons chart. So I _think_ (seriously: can't ever be sure; but I _think_) we're in agreement that you can pull out the Powers section as well, so long as the GM is familiar enough with it to build any new gadgets not already given in the material at hand (or who's comfortable enough with the system to simply say "this does that" and know that he's within the parameters of his game, of course).

Yeah, I have to agree. That "If" just doesn't make any sense..... (Yay! My return button is working again!) Duke

No; I agree: it's not hard. It's not one bit harder than understanding a roll-under system. It was the "it's necessary" and "it's more appropriate" arguments that were driving me ( and many others) nuts.

I don't think I can beat ten pages. But I will ask you this: Given nothing but those ten pages, can you learn to build a character and play the game? If we take the suggestion of pre-gen characters (which I'm a big fan of, and keep a few handy in case of new players. My entire youth group started with pre-gens: a dice-off to see who picks from the stack of (at that time) about eighteen characters, and eventually we had a team), will that ten pages teach them what they need to know to play the game? If the answer to either of these (especially that first one! ) is "Yes," then I need to print out two or three copies myself! Though I suspect I could safely bet against eating my graham cracker hat (really the best kind to wager with, just in case ) that it doesn't really teach them the game much more than HERO in Two Pages does. In which case, I stand by my decision to use the older edition as the best primer. As for Martial Arts-- like Scott, I tend to consider that almost as a different game: something you include to create a specific mood for a specific campaign or something. I don't knock it-- seriously; I don't-- I just don't _use_ it because we realized years ago that it was literally little pre-builds for shuffling Skill Levels and extra damage dice around, but for points on each pre-made combination. We simulate it quite fine with "regular" combat maneuvers, shifted skill levels, a couple added damage dice, and an occasional 'power requires skill roll' or Floating sorry-- "Naked" advantage. Sometimes we yell "HAI---YAAH" loudly in a shrill voice, just to make sure our opponents know it's martial arts and not pre-build skill level allocations. The best part is that each of our (rare) martial artist has _dozens_ and _dozens_ of maneuvers at his disposal, since they are.... well, there's no way around it: the mechanic is shuffling skill levels and and extra damage. The _maneuver_ part? It's just special effects. Sometimes our "martial artist" will have lots of fun with it, yelling out a hundred different "maneuver" names in a night. As you say: it makes him feel like he's doing something special, and I endorse that. My recommendation to gut it from "introductory rules" is based on the idea that it's one less thing to have to try to grasp right away, particularly as it's pretty easy to get the same effect using the rules you're interested in them picking up on quickly. Rework the character later, if you want to. I wanted to split that a bit more, but my return button's acting up again... So here goes: I suspect those playing aids (which I endorse, whole-heartedly) might have a lot to do with how much of the game a player can pick up "with just ten pages." As for the laminator: Yes; you are absolutely right. At my last job, they stopped letting me anywhere _near_ it. Though I still have a passion for the old-school mostly-transparent ConTac paper from days of yore....

This used to come up a lot when this board was busier-- at least as far back as BBB discussions on the old Red October board, and if often got heated as to which was the "best" way, and how one of them ensured that "you always roll high, and pattern recognition is a really important thing in teaching new players and young puppies and on and on. Personally? Well there's a quote in my tag line space at the the bottom. It's been there for years, and is the only thing I have _ever_ quoted from the internet, and I think it sums it up with a simplicity that is almost elegant.

I think therea a Semantics gap. The rules say Martial Maneuvers cost a Minimum of 3 pts. There are non martial plain old combat maneuvers that are free. I skimmed (admitting that up front; I did not do a detailed re-read) the rules last night, and I don't see anything separating the two beyond "characters who are martial artists" and "martial arts skill" and the like. There doesn't seem to be a hard rule defining what is a martial maneuver and what is a combat maneuver. This is further clouded by the presentation that any fighting style down to barroom brawling may be taken as a "martial art." From all I could see, there is nothing in the book disallowing the creation of infinite free maneuvers or categorizing them as "martial" and "non-martial" beyond defining them as such when they are created.

My first instinct is Damage Rsistance / negation as well, but if that's not the flavor you're looking for, you might go with additional Con limited to this purpose (assuming dizziness is a Con thing in your campaign)

I totally got that. It's the reason I prefaced my potentially digression-causing comments with a large "this isn't for digression" note. I got that, too. That's what I offered: my own suggestion is drawn from what I actually do: I use an edition that, given the built-in compatibility, is very much pared down: it's seventy-two bare-bones pages. Playing heroic non-fantasy makes it even smaller, though you can't completely eliminate the powers, as you need them to build equipment. However, if the GM is prebuilding the equipment, then sure: pull out twenty pages of powers and pare it down to not much over fifty pages of bare-bones HERO system rules. Pull out two pages of world building, and your almost dead on fifty pages. I like Basic and the Sidekicks for the same reason: bare bones, quick read, easy reference to thumb through during the learning process. You could write a custom document, but I never have (at least not yet) simply because I have lots of copies of seriously-pared-down HERO. Want go further, you pull out the miniatures rules as well, though I find that seeing the minis in place and interacting with them seems to help new players pick up combat a little faster. That might just be my imagination, however. Again: I was simply answering the question of "how low can you go" with the example I have found works best for me. I genuinely wasnt trying to derail this into edition wars, simply because there too stinking many threads on that already. Possibly Basic (pull out material as suggested above: and martial arts. Pull that out. "I hit him" and "I kick his friend" are sufficient at first), but I don't know if it's a four hours and play book: it's kind of a slog to read, as there is a lot of referencing backwards and forwards in it. The sidekicks are a bit much for that as well, being twice the size of a basic, but they are a bit easier to read. Or use an older, rules-lighter edition. Or write a custom document. I may have to get around to trying that (again).

I'm almost-always the odd man out on this, but - and let me preface this clearly-- if it were _my_ game, I would rule that the poor fellow gets struck by lightning, and he gets his defenses. It is not _his_ side-effect; it is the caster's side-effect, and that side-effect is "someone gets hit by lightning." The way I tend to interpret it that is that lightning: plain old normal lightning, is created. There is nothing about plain old normal lightning that robs you of your resistant ED (and I say resistant because I have a hard time wrapping my head around _lighting_ not being powerful enough to be best simulated with RKA, but you mileage may vary.) Also, I never really liked that particular write-up and it's use of side-effect. The reason being that the lightning does not come from _within_ the caster. If it did, I could justify the "you are denied your defenses" edict. The lightning is external to the caster: it will strike him (if he has metal on), not swell up inside him. That write up prompted me to alter the Side effects value table and include a 1/4 lower value if your defenses could be applied against the side effect. That had to be tweaked as well, because that one got abused _fast_! It became :1/4 reduction in value if your defenses can be applied to damage done by side effects and could reasonably be expected to negate half or less of the damage on an average roll; - 1/2 value if your defenses would reasonably negate more than half of an average roll. There are some case-by-case tweaks for certain players and builds, but those are my curent guideline tweaks, all of which stemmed from precisely the write-up I think you're working on right now. Duke

Most folks here are already aware of this, but my "solution" for the complexity problem was to not advance. My group and I lived 2e, and we stayed there. When FH came out under 3e, I bought that and used it to bring our already extant non-supers game more or less (which is to say, as far as we wanted to go) in line with the new rules for "heroic" level games, but even then, we just cribbed the bits we wanted and totally ignored the rest. And we've done it for every version since: crib what we like, and ignore the rest. And hon--- Stop. Let me say this: NO! THIS NEXT COMMENT IS NOT AN INSULT, IS NOT SLANDER, AND IS NOT HATE-DRIVEN, NOR IS IT THE LUDDITE RANTINGS OF A DERANGED OLD MAN PINING FOR IMAGINARY GOOD OLD DAYS! IT IS SIMPLE FACT, AND OFFERED ONLY AS SIMPLE FACT IN REPLY TO QUESTION AT HAND. Sorry for yelling, but this next comment has the tendency infuriate the faithful fans, even to the point of forgetting that I am actually one of them. As I was saying: Each subsequent edition brings less and less for us to crib, because there is less and less within that appeals to us. For this conversation, that's really all that matters: we use the 72-page (not counting character sheets) page rule book I bought in.... '83? I think it was' 83-- and occasionally pull a modifier or ruling or new ability from a later edition. It doesn't affect our enjoyment of newer material at all, because as noted all over this board, as the system changes very little, there is built-in compatibility in either direction. As a bonus: tiny rule book. at this point in time, I have about seven copies of that book I can lay hands on, and four others on loan to other people, which is great for new players, because after an intro session or two, I can offer them a copy to study at home when it's convenient, and they can show up to the next session with a list of questions. It really helps them pick it up quickly. Doesn't hurt that that the first three editions were nowhere near as dry as the last three. I can't imagine even trying to buy a dozen copies of the current rules.... When 5e came out, I picked up three copies (still have 2), but we never did a lot with it. I did run a couple of 5e games, but we ran it via "Sidekick," which is a very-pared-down version of the 5e rules. We used Sidekick so much I bought a second one, but by that time there had been a revision, so my Sidekicks don't quite match up. I have never run a 6e game, and judging from the looks on my players' faces when I finally got print copies and plopped them down on the table, I seriously doubt I ever will. I know I'm not really interested in it at all, but on the off-chance that I give it a whirl, I picked up Hero System Basic, which like Sidekick, is a seriously pared-down version of the rules. If I were to consider using 6e, it would be from Basic. There. That _almost_ answers the question, at least as far as how we do it. One bit of universal and universally-ignored advice: You have to be familiar.. No; that's wrong. You have to _know_ the rules before you even show it to your players. Why? When you're confident, they become confident. When you can recite- or at least flip directly to- an answer for the current conundrum, they are going to be more comfortable. Think of yourself as a tour guide. You want them to have a good time, and part of that is answering their questions with ease and confidence. And of course, you need to decide ahead of time which rules you are going to use, and which you are not going to use, and present the rules in that fashion: they only have to (at first) learn the rules that apply to the game they are in, period. And of course, have fun. Have lots and lots of fun. Duke

That would be accurate, then. Peterson likely bought the rights to the image when Hero was stamping out the original. And Savage Lands knows a built-in marketing tool when they see one. ;l

The guy that wrote the Super world game and partially inspired the guys who did the first Champions did a boxed set of RPGs using the same system and included Magic World and I-cant-remember-what-the-sci-fi-setting-was-called (future world?). He tied them all together with a hub world (an island, if I remember right) through which characters could transition from one world to another. It wasn't really popular, and I don't know why, because the system was as solid as anythi g else at the time and better than most.

Nice! Kind of a throwback to Perrin's old Worlds of Wonder boxed kit from way back. Never figured out why that didn't catch on better than just Super World.... Still, it's a solid idea.

That helps considerably; thank you.

Like Batmouse, right there.... "...bravely, Swift Swallow leaps into action! Using her powers derived from _two_ _different_ _birds_, she....."

Thank you so much. I was beginning to think I was the only one. Worse still is just how far over the shark TV Tropes has jumped. When every damned thing ever is a trope, then maybe it's time to re-evaluate what a trope actually _is_, and what it _means_ to call something a trope. When you end up lasting every subverted trope as a trope in itself, well... You're done. You're more than done, and should stop now while it's way too late.

It's not that: people need to be responsible for what comes out of their mouths. I would have to have read the book to make judgment on the case sgainst the publisher. What other fiction might now result in a suit? It's more than that, even: A systematic, targeted assault is wrong, and we all agree on that. Then we cheer because the "right people" are winning the systematic, targeted assault.. Bah- like I said, it's complicated.

It's not that: people need to be responsible for what comes out of their mouths. I would have to have read the book to make judgment on the case sgainst the publisher. What other fiction might now result in a suit?

Man, Google's awesome. The changes to their imaging set-up are irritating, but still, if you look hard enough, you can find a source. And it turns out there's an image on e-bay of the very magazine that inspired the entire world. (Jim, so far as I know, owned every issue of Dungeon. Mostly they were just littered around the gaming room, but still: a greater source of art and inspiration for gaming simply didn't exist at that time). At any rate: From that moment on, it was "BOOM!" Insect dragons and reptile people! I wonder.....

It's thing like that "right now" comment that remind me you don't actually live here. I have to say, I have mixed feelings about this. No; I'm not looking to discuss it. At the moment, they are a bit too complicated to actually put into words anyway. Let's just say that sometimes a justified victory can set some scary precedents for times down the road.

I'm probably saying something embarrassing about my own GM'ing style, but this is the moment in my life that I learned this is not something everyone does. Outside of convention games, of course, where time limits and single-session games preclude world building.

Pain _killers_! Well crap! It seems so _obvious_, now! Thanks, Dude. I owe you one.