Duke Bushido

Hmph. The dumbest thing I ever believed as a kid is that I could work really hard, buy a house, and one day afford to retire.

Sweet! It's a Look Tater!

sounds like it's a hint, to be honest. No INT check; no research check. Just a guaranteed hint. Or a push. The only advantage I can see over research is that you can't fail. I'm not familiar with S&W (the non-handgun version, anyway), so I can't speak to the appropriateness or utility of it.

Sorry for the confusion; I even went back a bit later and edited that to prevent it. I was hedging nothing: I was specifically addressing the comment that a power construct putting an opponent at a disadvantage was the reason the build was why the build was called out as in illegal build. The same text that called it out explained that it was in illegal build because the effect that the author saw from that (not saying it is the only possible effect; simply stating that it's the one the author declared to be the effect) reproduced an existing power. That is the only thing I addressed. Frankly, that's not even a discussion I'm going to get into, particular with the last two editions and their rearranging of some powers as parts of other powers, etc. That way lies the slippery slope of "everything is essentially T-form," or the ultimate reduction to two powers: "Affect universe" and "Resist universe." I'm not even gonna skirt close to that.

Energy Blast puts the target at a severe disadvantage and is a valid power construct. According to the text that both you and Dr. D referred me to, the specific reason that the DI construct is called out is because, according to Steve the only possible effect of DI UaU sans STR is Drain: STR, which he feels is better represented by Drain: STR. It has nothing to do with the fact that the DI is limited in some way; it has to do with the author's belief that this construct is better simulated with an unmodified extant power.

I'm probably up too late, but that was extra funny given that I got up, went downstairs to grab my reading glasses, then came back up here just to read that.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? Haven't found it yet, though.....

I can see where you're coming from, but I feel the difference between the proposed Shrinking build and the example DI build are that the DI build, as the example states, results in a character becoming so heavy that he doesn't have sufficient STR to actually move-- a defacto Drain: STR. There isn't (that I can see) such a negative to not getting the CV bonus from Shrinking, particular when that bonus is based on a size reduction that, in the proposed build, isn't actually happening. Now that I have read the 6e UaA text (thanks again), I have a question that those more familiar with 6e might be able to point out: Is there anywhere in that text that states clearly that the extra STR from DI is solely to offset the increased weight? if this is not the intention of the additional STR, then I take exception to the claim that DI: No additional STR is an invalid construct, as without that specific statement, the additional STR isn't needed for the character to do whatever it is he does. If that statement is in there, then it stands to reason that there is no bonus dice of damage from that STR, as all the "extra" STR will be used simply making the arm move to deliver the blow.

Sorry, Hugh. I'd like to play with this some more, but I'm kind of tapped out on the subject. Interesting thoughts, though, as usual.

Thanks to both of you. I had looked under the power description and all references to the word Shrinking until my eyes crossed. Hadn't occurred to me to look under the UaA itself. Lone Wolf: I admitted up-front I am not familiar with Long editions. 5e was a Long edition as well. Bought it (both versions); read it (both versions), but don't use it.

Thanks, Tribble! Had a great time. Typically here in the US, when July 4 is on a Sunday, we do the big send-ups on Saturday so that more people are able to stay up for the festivities. Well, more kids anyway; more than half of us adults have to work Sundays, too, so.... Still, we went to a big show at the beach, stayed out and swam and had a late-night picnic while everyone else was fighting their way off the island, then enjoyed a quiet and leisurely ride home (while everyone else laid their seats back and took a nap. There are down sides to being Dad, I think....) There were street vendors for crafts, acrobats, puppets, and local artists doing their thing. Oh, hey-- that reminds me. I got you something!

If it's not too much trouble, I need a little help here. Yes; even as I typed that I could see possible misinterpretations, so let me take a moment to remind you and anyone following along that I don't "do" sarcasm: it _never_ helps, and results in damaged relationships all around. it's just a stupid thing to do (my own opinion, of course) and a poor substitute for wit. So what I am saying very much is "I looked for something but could not find it; you demonstrate evidence that you know where it is; would you be kind enough to take a moment to point it out to me," and there is absolutely nothing hidden between the words or lines or in the backs of my eyes. So here is where I am: I started to run some numbers, then got hit with that "No, Duke; everyone else is using newer editions that you are. Look in the new books first." I have never made a secret that I don't care for or use the Long editions (though I do enjoy the pun ). I bought them, of course, because I want the company to continue to exist, even though I suspect that, given our ages and our relative healths, any new editions will continue to be Long editions until well after my death. So be it. I like the supplementary Long stuff, to be sure, just not the rules sets. That's not this discussion, and offered only as an explanation for my actions earlier this afternoon: I grabbed the 6e books-- no; okay. I grabbed Book 1, fully believing that everything related to Powers and their approved uses and their newly-detailed mandatory interactions with one another would be contained entirely in that book. I poured through the index and checked every reference to Shrinking. Still not finding what I was looking for, I opened up the e-book version and did the keyword thing, and still didn't find anything. I _did_ find that Shrinking, assuming the use of this edition, is going to actually be cheaper than I thought, because it appears the price has dropped from 10 points per "unit of Shrinking" to 6 points. As I've mentioned elsewhere, many times, I've only read these books once, and I knew I wasn't going to do it again except as reference material for discussions like this one. At any rate, I had forgotten the price reduction to Shrinking, and was pleasantly surprised to be reminded of it. This comment though: That's what I was trying to find. I took you at your word, of course, and assumed it would be in there somewhere, in spite of not being able to justify it against some of the core conceits of HERO, primarily, I can just decide that my character is a 600 pound alien cyborg and his Black Hole belt gives him the ability to compress himself into a super-tiny version of himself. I know there is nothing in 4e back that would make him have to pay extra to use his Shrinking for his two hundred-seventy-odd kilograms of personal mass, but then I thought to myself "Wait. The Long Editions added all kinds of mandatory "power X must do this in the presence of Power Y" and other such "only this way is correct" rules, so I figured I'd better check the newest rules set on the assumption that in light of your statement, you were using a rules set with which I am less familiar. Unfortunately, I am unable to find it. I started to dust off Book 2, but then I got thinking about the multitude of books in which it could be buried, and the amount of time I have available to track this down, and decided that, if you don't mind, it would be far more practical to ask someone who knows just where I can find this. Is it in an APG, or is it in one of the genre supplements? It's important, as if this is a set rule in newer editions, I am going to have to make allowances in future discussions. I apologize in advance for any time you have to devote to looking up the specific reference, and thank you for the help. Yes; I had mentioned both Range and even the possible mandate of AoE, if the GM decided it was required to use against large objects. I wouldn't, personally, but I'm not the GM. Still, even before determining any sort of value for the Limitation "only to reduce weight," we have the following: Shrinking, 18 pts. UAA (+1.25) Range (+1/2). We have a total Advantage cost of +1.75. Yes, it's a lot. On 18 points, we have a final cost of something like 33 pts, without applying any Limitations. We could spend 33 pts on TK which would yield a TK of STR 22. We could completely negate any weight of not quite 600 KG (yielding a really helpful number of "not quite 1,320 pounds" ). The effect of three levels of Shrinking means that the Character can reduce the weight of _anything_ (assuming he has purchased any additional modifiers the GM may require for the use of this ability at range, on large targets, or what-have-you) down to 1/512 of it's normal weight. The effect of a STR: 22 Telekinesis means he can get this same effect on anything weighing up to 601 Kilograms. Certainly he can continue to deduct 600 KG from any object, even those weighing tens of thousands of kilograms, but it's not going to be too terribly long (assuming a non-"cosmic level" game, of course) where the effect of his power is essentially negligible. If Reducto Man has this TK ability to remove up to 600 KG worth of gravity's pull against any object, and on top of that has a person STR 50-- well, first we have to agree on just how _that_ works. Do the STRs _combine_? Is his TK bought as STR, or _+STR_? Does he simply remove 600 KG from an object, and the 50 STR is applied to what's left? This works out to him being able to lift an object that originally weighed 25 tons and 600 spare KG. If he can combine the two STR values (which I think is a bit dubious, since I don't _think_ Characters can perform teamwork or combined attacks with themselves, but again: I am _not_ familiar with the Long editions and could very well be wrong), then he gets a total of 75 STR, meaning he can now lift an object that originally weighed up to 800 tons. Big difference, to be sure, but again-- from the newer books, I don't know which is correct. Either way, though, assuming the Character has only STR 20 and his "feats of STR" are performed by actually reducing the weight of the object via Shrinking, he can lift an object weighting up to 204,800 KG. I would reduce that further, but I have always been loathe to do so for _one_ reason: What tons? Six editions, seven if you count the revision of 5 as a new work, and eight if you count that an New Millennium, and not _ONCE_ has it ever been stated if we are talking metric tons or not. NOT ONCE! Granted, from a human perspective, the idea of lifting eighty-thousand tons is pretty meaningless anyway, so it doesn't really matter beyond how many dice you can hit someone with, but seriously, this has always felt like a massive omission to me. As always, if anyone can point to me a citation where this has been defined, I would very much appreciate it. Please; if the only persuasion is the "logical progression" that we move from KG to tons, so it must be metric, do not bother telling me; I am going to reply by asking how that logical progression leads to representing two meters (or one, 6e and presumably beyond) with inches. Yes; hex paper is printed in inches. I am also pretty sure it can be printed in cm, dm, (does anyone actually use the decimeter as a unit of measure? Anyone?), m, and probably even km if the demand was there. If this Character had the same 50 STR and the Shrinking shtick, he could lift 12,800 HERO-System tons. The difference, ultimately, is one of progression. One of these methods will peter out very, very quickly, while the other gets _more effective_ as it is used. I am reminded of one of the very few comic book characters with which I am passingly familiar (mostly owing to a conversation on this very board a couple of decades ago that piqued my interest enough to look up the character): Molecule Man. Apparently he was conceived and even used as a fairly minor character, right up until writers kept seeing more and more potential for him, and thirty years later, he is the most powerful character in the universe (except, if the fans are to be believed, for the possible exception Squirrel Girl.) So which is correct? I would put forward the idea that it's more about what sort of thing you are trying to model, and what sort of game you are preparing to play.

It's a hair past one AM here; I don't trust myself to respond (or even have read) coherently-- did the fireworks show at the beach, followed by some exhausting swimming. I will have to check back in on this after some sleep. Thanks for the conversation, though!

Sorry, I would have put this up hours ago, but wife and kids love to travel long miles and do things that give me a massive headache. Things like go to the beach and watch the fireworks. On the plus side, swimming for a couple of hours instead of sitting in traffic leaving the beach. That was nice. Anyway, this is some excerpts and comments from a sheet I have been using for quite some time. It's likely not idea for you, but it gives you an idea of just how easy the front loading part can actually be, if you want it to be. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YHsFWaLkAPyH2qKPRRIXeEuRy9CK4rm_IcXpNi3CPJ0/edit?usp=sharing If lumber goes any higher, I'm going to start shaving them from oak dowels.

I was agreeing with you, actually-- TK has benefits over +STR, the most significant being other people can take advantage of the effect. The reason I still prefer the Shrinking method is the 1/8 mass thing. if I have +X points of STR or TK or some variant of those, I can negate Y amount of weight. If the item weighs less than Y, it's totally weightless. If it weighs Y+10 kg, then it weighs 10 kg. If I have +30 STR of "remove weight," it's not going to make an appreciable difference against an aircraft carrier or Smurfian Dreadnought or what-have-you. Those same 30 base points put into Shrinking result in a final mass of 1/512 the original, without regard for the initial weight. Granted, you might only get 2 "levels" of Shrinking after a couple of mods like UaA or whatever you might take on there, but even that still yields a reduction down to 1/64 of the original weight. Still, I would think that "only to reduce weight" is sufficient enough Limitation to allow 3 "levels" of Shrinking, if not a tad more. At any rate, if I use +25 STR against a human target, I can render him completely weightless (assuming a limitation that it is only to counteract gravity's effect on him. Without that, I can launch him into space eventually). If I use =25 STR against just the anchor of an aircraft carrier (30,000 pounds, or roughly 13608 kg), I give it a final weight of 12008 kg, or approximately 26417 pounds. Still pretty hard to heave, even for supers (you'd need to apply another STR of about 29 to lift and stagger off with it. With only three (and again, though I am loathe to use the word for this, it's a handy reference) "levels" of Shrinking, those 30,000 pounds become 59 pounds (call it 26.6 kg). Generally, similar costs, similar END expense, but one of them creates a truly impressive super power. Cost and the possible annoyance of cobbling were brought up above, but the cobbling is minimal (add a single Limitation) and the point-for-point expense makes Shrinking a clear winner, even after adding UaA and Range. Just my two cents worth, of course. Alternatively, you could use DI in a sort of reverse: remove additional Characteristics at X per "level" and reduce mass at Y per level. On the surface, you are broadening DI into "Density Manipulation," but since DI has no "must change size" requirement, it's equally valid as a starting point. Shrinking, however, doesn't make the object weaker as it gets lighter: it's still an airplane; it's just really, really light now.

Forgive the brevity; I am on a phone and dont have my,readeing glasses,with me, but the immediate gains are range, area of effect, and the ability for other people to take advantage of it.

This one takes a bit of front-loading on your part, but if you really want it to work, then it should be worth it, as the research isnt too involved. Look up the value of the various metals- copper, silver, gold, iron, steel- and figure the ratios between them. Fudge them a bit until you have a working x ounces of A equals Y ounces of B kind of thing going. You can then determine a coin size and figuure out the weight of coins in various metals, or (and this is just simpler, but its about how simulationist you want to go, really) just determine how many ounces are in a coin, keeping that weight consistent from coin to coin, and assuke the size of the coins varies with regard to the metal used. Once You have the values of the metal, you need a set of multipliers. Assume your base values are for ingots, or ore that has been refined to a useable purity. Knock off fifteen percent to determine the value of raw ore (steel, obviously, has no raw ore, but consider the "ore" to be raw or cold_rolled low-grade, semi-pliable steel: the stff that needs a good forging to be useful for things that need to harder than wrought iron or rebar). If you want to get deep into simulation, add ten or twelve percent to the value of any coin being spent in the territory where it was minted _or_ devalue "foreign" coins to that of ore value, since they will have to be collected by the authorites and restruck as proper coins of the realm. Determine your multipliers for different types of metal goods: Simple jewelry? Metal value x 2, paying for the skill and labor that went into it, Nice jewelry? Metal used x 4. Exquisite jewelry? Metal x 10. These are just numbers pulled from the air, mind you, and to get the feel of different economies or particularly desireable or common pieces will rate higher or lower than the listed multiplier. It gets a bit more detailed with steel, but gain, your cost _starts_ with the amount of raw materials: the coin weight of the item, essentially, plus the weight of any material lost during crafting, etc. From their your multipliers are determined by the amount of time spent crafting (total time: if it took ten men ten days, then it took 100 days), the amount of skill, the detail and ornateness, and any uniwue features such as "unearthly sharpness of edge" or "lighter than a schoolboy's thoughts" or even "super-easy to bless." Which brings up the next point, more common with weapons than anything else in RPGs: _everyone_ gets paid, and everyone has a orive requirment. So you have figured out what the metal costs and the blacksmith charges; that's great. But then there were the two monks who blessed the ore and started the ceremony to enchant the blade and the alchemists who provided the mysterious powders to fold into the white-hot steel, etc. All of that costs, and those costs are not only added in to the cost of the item, but they are determined the same way: the church wants to be paid for their services, as does the local alchemical college. And this is pretty much how an unregulated market works, really. If your local municipality has special laws governing any of these things or even controlling the sale or manufacture or even just the final price, factor that in as well. There is so much more than can be thrown into this, but the first part: metal value, ore value, cost multipliers, exchange rates- these should be enough to create the experience your playera arw looking for. Just remind them when they start to realize that metal items are very much worth more than their weight in coins that this is the reason so many grouos kind of gloss over day-to-day finances..... Hope something there helps!

I'm with you. I hate it for all kinds of things except for actually changing one thing into something else. 4e and all the Transform / EDM / Desolid hacks just left a really bad taste in my mouth that only got worse with the splitting into "kinds of Transform." He is still going to have to go with some pretty in-depth builds there to simulate what he's stated thus far: if he can reduce the mass / weight of up to four objects, he's likely not going to carry them all. So he would have to make his +STR useable by others and either "as attack" or some other "force them to have it" since they likely can't just choose to ignore that the airplane is now light as a feather. It's also going to have to have an AoE or a 'useable by as many people as can touch it at once' or some other such thing. If the object is lighter / less massive to the one character alone, then sure: extra STR. But then you still need another build to increase knockback when someone else hits it. If the extra STR is useable by everyone in the area and everyone in the area is punching the lightened McGuffin, no biggie. But then there's that one guy who hit it with an iceblast-- no STR involved. You'll need a build for that, too. You are absolutely not wrong; I want to be clear on that. I also want to be clear that I am not well-versed in comic books, so what I am about to say may not hold water: In a comic book universe, I personally don't have a problem with this. Buy using the proposed Shrinking build, it's not even an issue, since Shrinking states that the Shrunk is reduced in mass and gains additional KB penalties. Sure: reducing mass and maintaining volume would _have_ to result in loss of density, but again: comic book world means it doesn't have to. I look to the Antman movie for this: Okay, Hank, you have all your density / STR, so you can hit like a man, and flip someone over like a grown man, but somehow, you can ride on a flying ant, too. And periodically, you will get smacked, and you will go sailing, because you're small, regardless of the fact that your mass is now so tightly compressed you should simply leave a hole in the hand of the person smacking you (and not actually be able to move yourself, or hold enough oxygen to stay alive, but it's comics: we suspend disbelief for that sort of thing). I would not be surprised to find the comics are chock full of "density of convenience" issues. Again, I might be completely wrong; I only have the movies to go by. (of course, I can't point to Antman without screaming "plumbing does not work that way!" ) Crap. This would have been a much better place to mention all the complex additions to do what he listed above with just additional STR. Sorry about that. I have been away from the board for a few days, and generally enjoy discussing things with you, so when I saw your name, I kinda dove right in. Sincere apologies for the lack of prepwork. I am not sure where you were pointing with that one, Sir. As I understand it, the character is able to target up to for other people or things with this power simultaneously.

That was my thought at first, too, until he clarified that he wanted to be able to do this to things / characters that were not him.

Your character; your game. This makes it your call, entirely. Myself, I tend to go with modified versions of existing things when at all possible, with the payoff that I don't have to build everything from scratch (as the "base thing" tends to have most, if not all, of what I am looking or anyway), and I don't have to worry about it "healing back." For what it's worth, either one should do what you want to accomplish.

Ah! It's not something you want to use on yourself as a power; I see. Thank you for clarifying. My standby for stuff like that is Shrinking: Does not reduce physical size / volume, Useable as Attack. It's got built-in rules for determining just how much weight disappears, but there is no mandated "my hand goes right through it!" aspect. In your case, you might get a better Limitation, as you won't be (I assume) wanting to apply the CV modifiers, etc. Shrkinking: Only to Reduce Weight, UaA

Happy Pride, be proud, never forget your value as human beings. I have no idea why you guys picked he hottest part of the year to have parades, but hey-- enjoy that, too, if you can.

No; I am not laughing at the image; I am laughing at me. I don't know if it's the cropping or the size or what, but I looked at that image for a solid 90 seconds before I saw the guy who wasn't a dinosaur. So I'm thinking he's probably a gifted hunter, too.

Enhanced Sense: Taste, Ranged, Area of Effect, floors only. It's not discriminatory or anything. It just lets you taste any floor. Density increase, activates only in free fall; deactivates one segment after completing free falll. (actually did that one-- do that one, semi-regularly. I have mentioned before that our super world is populated with people who have powers who have elected not to become spandex commandos, and of course, not every power or power set is ideal for costumed crime fighting. This is the case for a young man who now makes his career as a stuntman: his sole power is the ability to survive a fall from any height. His friends have nicknamed him "Crater."

Thanks, Scott,but I generally let playes do what they are the most comfortable with, roll or role. The above example was for those players who have decided "its been almost an entire scene since I seduced an enitre harem; better get back to it. When it becomes detrimental to everyone else's good time, make it real. Let them exam it. Let them decide "is this _really_ so important I should derail the game with every chance I get?" Wasnt ever really a problem until ten or twelve years ago, when somone threw "oh, you know, the typical horny bard" onto social media and everyone just decided to run with it, as if it was a necessary thing for every group of people to have one. Ugh.