Lee

It isn't fair, which is why I wouldn't allow you to start the game with a magic sword (or anything else). Then every magic item obtained would either be found/purchased for currency (no CP cost) or created (CP cost). It's part of the GM's job (IMO) to try and be as fair as they can while telling a good story. Now, if you had stated you wanted a magic sword and it sounded really cool, I'd try to construct an adventure (or side adventure) where you could "find" one. That way, you and Bob are on a level playing field.
 
BTW, if the sword Bob found was a finely crafted but mundane sword that was "worth" 20 points, how would that be any more fair if he didn't spend CP for it. To be fair, you'd have to charge Bob CP for the mundane sword and open the can of worms of when to charge and when not to as well as the case that Bob purchased the same sword from a blacksmith paying both currency and CP. Then it's not fair going the other way.
 
You would eventually get your points back through EXP. No, you wouldn't be able to get those 20 points back by giving up the sword and use them to get the new item.You wouldn't need to because the new item that is found doesn't cost CP.
 
You've illustrated quite well why I wouldn't let the character start the game with a magic sword anyway. As GM, I'd help you find it along the way (if it was interesting for the story).
 
I'm not familiar with D&D 5th edition (I've not played D&D since 1st edition) so I can't speak to attunement. But, if it is a powerful item that Bob got from the villain, I'd fully expect the villain to try and claim it back. If it had the ability to let the villain spy on Bob, so be it. It sounds like a great story arc for the campaign. I honestly don't see a problem, but, again I'm not familiar with D&D 5e attunement.
 
Cool! We have some common ground! 😉 I just find it arbitrary to charge sometimes and not charge other times. I suppose one might devise a way to make it non-arbitrary, like if it is more than X AP or RP you have to pay CP but if below you don't. But that would still be arbitrary since the "X" is decided upon by GM fiat. It also limits the ability of the GM to have "finely crafted", "masterpiece" or "heirloom" items that, while mundane, are significantly better than other mundane items. They'd need to charge CP for them and you're back to charging CP for some mundane items and not others. Although in this case it's not as arbitrary. I'm not sure I'd like that as either a player or GM. 
 
Ah, that wasn't clear, at least to me, from your original post. This seems much more fair to me than it originally did, especially the part about letting them "finance" their purchase of the sword over time. Just don't charge interest!  I also like the idea of Bob being able to use more abilities of the sword as he spends points to "pay it off". I could get behind that idea.
 
Lee

People in this thread make good points.  I'm leaning quite a bit more neutrally toward the idea.  I'd probably still count any magic items toward the character's total when I'm working out total capabilities -- in that sense they're part of the character's points.  But I don't necessarily see the need to charge points, as in requiring the character to allocate saved XP to an item.  I'd make it a GM-decided option at the beginning of the campaign, for sure.  

Allen Thomas took an interesting approach to incorporating Elves into The Valdorian Age, Hero Games's source book for a sword-and-sorcery style campaign. Following the time line of the official Hero Universe, VA was the first age of widespread civilization after the cataclysmic destruction of the Turakian Age. Some Elves survived that disaster, although the fight for survival left them hard, ruthless, and ultimately, cruel and evil. Having retained much of their magic and technology, and making alliance with a nest of dragons who also survived, they set out to conquer and "civilize" the remaining primitive Men; but in practice enslaved and exploited them for their benefit and amusement. Essentially, Thomas turned J.R.R. Tolkien's Elves into Michael Moorcock's Melniboneans.

Don't even worry about the point cost for found magic items (except for purposes of Dispel/Suppress).  If the fighter found a +1 OCV broadsword in the monster's horde, fantastic!  What can be found can also be lost/destroyed.
 
If the player wants to start out with a magic item, then that is simply a power with a Focus limitation.   Pay points, and use the Focus rules.  Not using the "Real Weapon" limitation avoids the issues faced by "mundane" items.

I honestly think this is the best way to do this, assuming the GM is keeping it more or less strictly balanced (everybody remains within 10 points). In fact, I think I'll take it a step further. Not only can you essentially find CP on the ground by finding a magical item, any magical item may be upgraded with XP at your leisure. You can choose for the magic item to become part of your character, like Excalibur or Mjolnir, and thereby earn the right to discover new abilities (much like a new use for one's powers in comic books) or just improve its current abilities.

Generally I think you should get magic items as loot and not pay points for them, and balance them with complications and the understanding that what you got for free can be freely taken away as well (or used up).  However, there is room for someone building their particular wand with character points.
 
As for permanently losing points, I don't think that should EVER happen (in any game), but you can temporarily lose the access to those points (lose the item) until its replaced with something else or a new version of the item.  OK you lose your Wand of Doom, for 1 adventure but at the end you get a Wand of Even More Doom, or a keep of your own, or something else.

Like this one?
 
“When a distinguished but elderly scientist says something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he says something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.”
--- Arthur C. Clarke (1917-2008)

I agree. I would never charge character points for items the character(s) "found" in the game. I also don't buy the idea of "not a currency" either.
 
For example, let's say that Paladin character, who is wearing non-magical chainmail, finds in the treasure trove of the boss the party has just defeated, as shiny new suit of non-magical plate armor that fits! It will increase the character's effective point value even though it is non-magical. Do you charge the character CP's for the non-magical plate? If so, what if instead, the character goes to the local city and buys the armor from the armorsmith there for, say, 500 gold pieces. Should the character also have to pay in character points in addition to the gold? I'd say no.
 
Well, if you're not going to charge CP's for the non-magical plate (or sword or dagger or whatever), why charge CP's for a magical one? Sure, being magical may increase the item's capabilities beyond those of an equivalent non-magical version, but in either case, they increase the character's effective point value, just one more than the other. And, what about the case where you have a magical set of chainmail that has +10 resistant defenses but, there is also an armorsmith who can forge a set of non-magical plate that has the same defenses? Do you charge CP for one and not the other? That doesn't seem right to me. Do you charge CP for both? Then having weapons and armor price lists (in currency) is meaningless. It seems to me that the answer is don't charge CP for either.
 
Now, the GM will need to make sure that the character(s) opponents will more often have equally powerful items to offset the ones they let the character(s) "find". But, before anyone says anything about a potential arms race, bear in mind it's the GM giving out the magic items and the GM equipping the adversaries. So, effectively the GM is in an arms race with themselves. They can stop the arms race anytime they want simply by not giving out any more magic items.
 
That said, the GM will need to be careful not to give the character(s) too many, too powerful items, too quickly. To mitigate this, I could see using the experience points the character's have accumulated as a guide to how powerful an item to give. You wouldn't necessarily want to give a 50 point magic item to a character who had only accumulated 10 XP. But, if they'd been campaigning long enough to have accumulated 60 XP, a 50 point magic item might be appropriate. However, their accumulated XP would only be a guide and no XP would be spent on the "found" item.
 
The only time I'd charge CP's for a magic item would be if the character wanted to forge/enchant a brand new item, assuming I didn't have any crafting rules in place for creating new items. Then, I think it would be appropriate. It would be similar to the way in D&D you create magic items by spending XP (and gold for materials) to create a new item.
 
If you ARE going to charge him 20 points for the sword and it gets eaten, the way I'd work it would be to have him come across another (but different) 20 point item as soon as you can. That would seem to make it like an accessible focus in a supers game where someone can take away your focus, but it's never gone permanently. So, they're down 20 points but just for a short while. Making the item different than the sword makes it make more sense (to me at least). It's not likely that you'd come across a sword that is exactly like the one the dragon ate. But, you might find something just as useful.
 
Anyway, that's my take on it. YMMV (probably a lot).
 
Lee

Gnomes.  I blame house gnomes, its their idea of a joke.

Gnome, have you ever thought that maybe you just don't like Hero?

I tend to treat INT that way: each point makes you one smarter, like Spinal Tap's amplifiers.  In game, I try to work it out so someone who has higher INT can work out clues faster, get notes helping them out more, etc.   In truth, however its defined in the rules, intelligence in Hero means more perception, memory, and speed of thought than it does actual smarts.  Someone very, very smart but slow (such as my buddy who is an actual nuclear physicist who worked at Hanford reactor in summers while in college) was very slow and methodical but terrifyingly intelligent.  Someone can have a super fast mind and be really stupid otherwise.

I used to give free background points at character generation for each point of INT (non-combat stuff) but I dropped that after a while because it was just trying to benefit higher INT and in Hero, intelligence doesn't equate to experience or wisdom.

Unfortunately, no I don't. Sorry.  Actually, it might be from The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, but I don't remember and didn't check. I just checked, and it is indeed from that book. Sorry for all the edits (including this one), I just hated not to be able to give you the information you wanted. 😊
 
Lee

Unfortunately, no I don't. Sorry.  Actually, it might be from The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, but I don't remember and didn't check. I just checked, and it is indeed from that book. Sorry for all the edits (including this one), I just hated not to be able to give you the information you wanted. 😊
 
Lee

Unfortunately, no I don't. Sorry.  Actually, it might be from The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, but I don't remember and didn't check. I just checked, and it is indeed from that book. Sorry for all the edits (including this one), I just hated not to be able to give you the information you wanted. 😊
 
Lee

Unfortunately, no I don't. Sorry.  Actually, it might be from The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, but I don't remember and didn't check. I just checked, and it is indeed from that book. Sorry for all the edits (including this one), I just hated not to be able to give you the information you wanted. 😊
 
Lee

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
---Carl Sagan, astronomer and writer (1934-1996)

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
---Carl Sagan, astronomer and writer (1934-1996)

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
---Carl Sagan, astronomer and writer (1934-1996)

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
---Carl Sagan, astronomer and writer (1934-1996)

I believe he does speak to how they feel. His white male supporters were used to considering themselves the top of the heap. Now they have to fight for their place along with everyone else, and they don't like it. They feel they shouldn't have to, because they're the "true Americans."
 
Archie Bunker can see George Jefferson closing in in his rear-view mirror. Only today it's not so much George as Jorge.

I'm pretty sure at this point anywhere from 15 to 35 percent of the Amercian voters will refuse to believe anything negative about him. They've bound their self image and identity too firmly into Trump. 
I just hope its closer to 15%
 
 

Okay, that was a lot of wasted effort--
 
not you guys; the wall of text I just wrote and deleted.  My apologies, but upon proofing it, I realized it sounded far more adversarial than I ever intend _anything_ (not work-related) to sound.  After a couple of attempts at tweaking it, I realized it just couldn't be salvaged, and frankly, with the down votes already being thrown around, I'd have to say that things are already adversarial enough in here without accidentally contributing to it.
 
So let me try again, if you would be so kind as to bear with me.
 
First, I'd like to say that I'm human.  I'm willing to be that everyone here is _human_-- except possibly Hugh-- who isn't here yet-, and may well be a web-based AI whose sole purpose is to remember every single detail of a rulesbook and several thousand conversations, all the while mathing our entire universe down to it's base prime number.     (Love ya, Hugh.  Seriously: thanks for all the times you've been a great sport, and hopefully will be one for this, too.    ).  Because of that, and because this is a both an informal and a  conversational format for communicating to people who have at least one thing in common (appreciation or at least interest in some incarnation of the HERO System), our opinions are _going_ to leak out; they are just going to leak out.
 
And before anyone points out that I have no right to speak for everyone, you're absolutely correct.  That was my opinion leaking out.  It's going to happen a _lot_ throughout the rest of my life, and while we can all protest otherwise, I am willing to be that makes me the very-most-possible opposite of unique here.  When you see my opinion leaking out, I implore that you do _not_ assume that I am presenting it as any kind of fact; more importantly-- much, _much_ more importantly, I humbly request that you do _not_ read it as any kind of insult to anyone in any form or fashion.  For example: do not assume that I insult the way you or someone else is playing the game.  I play 2e, for Pete's sake!  I _know_ I play it different than most of the people here; I'm not going to call you out for doing your thing different.  So again, I ask that you take no offense at opinions leaking out: that's all they are: conversation, sometimes offered as quips, humor, lightening tension, or something that I personally (you know: in my own opinion) thought might be interesting to think about to perhaps one person who might read it.
 
And that's _it_.  No insult; no sarcasm; no attack.
 
You know, if I was Canadian, I wouldn't have to make such a preamble.....
 
 
Second, I almost _never_ get involved in these "how do I build an everyday thing" threads.  Why?  Because they end up adversarial.  Assumptions get made, down votes get tossed around, and people start getting their feelings hurt.  (No: I will never down vote anyone for anything but the most extreme and offensive of personal attacks (against anyone who isn't me.  I genuinely cannot get too terribly worked up over a total stranger's opinion of me, so have fun with it  )-- well, and that one NGD thread where we are all passing out down votes for fun.  That was damned amusing   .  I tend to think of the down vote button as a special kind of passive-aggressive dickishness that I just can't get behind.)
 
At any rate, these tend to break into two camps:  the camp of "I just want to play with this idea" and the camp of "you must do this."  I only decided to post to this one because, after a quick read of the thread, the OP doesn't say at any point that he is either going to require players to do this, or that he is being required by a GM to do this.  Without that direct statement, I'm going to work on the assumption that this is one of those "fun ideas I want to play with" posts, and run with that.
 
That being said: 
 
I'd build a smartphone using the computer rules of whatever edition you're using.  That will cover pretty much all your apps-- they're just programs.  Your processor is just INT.  I'd take a really hard look at what actually _is_ an app, and what is actually web-based: while they may be out there, I've yet to see a phone where "Translate" was hard-coded into the phone as opposed to being something web-based that is accessed through your phone.  Now you can build a special "internet accessing device" perk for your gadget (I wouldn't), or just let that fall into the SFX of your HH Radio Communication: Phone, Text, internet access.  Ho-yeah!
 
Then-- now keep in mind that this is assuming it's an off-the-shelf phone-- I'd mandate that it be a fragile/breakable focus.  Yep: you get hit with the fire blast or whatever it was that Doc D mentioned up above, there's a good chance you'll break it.  However, you paid points for it (in a game run by someone who wasn't me), and I'm not going to keep you from your points; I am merely applying the Foci rules.  You will be able to replace it-- without the expenditure of additional points-- by either handing it to the team gadgeteer (if you have one) or stopping at the next phone store (or Wal-Mart, or Dollar General, or Family Dollar, or pharmacy, or large, upscale gas station-- or pretty much anywhere that doesn't sell building materials, potpourri, or gold chains by the foot (14 or less for the gold-by-the-foot kiosk selling them anyway))  you pass.
 
I would implement the other disadvantages of a "real" cell phone, too: as mentioned above, you can be tapped, traced, hacked, located, and telemarketing robots can call mid-stealth roll.  You _did_ remember to silence it, right?  NO, DAMNIT!  I _don't_ mean put it on vibrate, since that seems to be the loudest damned setting the things have!
 
All that being said, I wouldn't do it, period.  If my game was still set in 1982, sure: these things would be _amazing_ game-changing devices that could provide a _huge_ advantage over the bad guys!  Well, except for translation, streaming, texting, and anything else that's internet-based.  If memory serves, the internet was a pretty dull place in 1982.....
 
But let me explain why I wouldn't charge for it, at least not one bit more than HH radio com, as a phone, if someone really felt that was a game breaker or charged more than a single point for a team communicator:
 
What can we do with it?  We can put books in it!  Cool.  So we first have to find out the point value of a single book.  Then we can charge that much for each book that's loaded into the phone.  Or we could, since you'll never read more than one at a time, charge for that one book and sort of "gadget pool" it out via the internet when you need a different book.
 
So let's build a book in HERO.  To use something I think most of us are familiar with, let's use HERO System 5e book.  What value does this book have?  Well, it's bulletproof; we know rPD is worth some points.  So let's day that books have what--?  3 rPD?  Was it a high-powered rifle?  We'll give books 5 rPD, just in case.  Having access to this book at a moment's notice means we effectively have the all-important skill set all superheroes and adventure characters need:  KS: how to use the HERO System, 14-  (because you were probably wrong, and should look it up); Extra Time (you have to look it up, remember?)  Okay, now what's that skill?  Well, for most of us, I guess it would be a KS-- just a couple points.  But for those who have to be _way_ more familiar-- those who write for or about good ol' HS, well it's going to be the source of a Professional Skill: some part of their income depends on getting everything right, after all.  You know, let's just call it 2 pts anyway.  We know now that books are worth character points, the same value as a die of blast or doubling your lifting strength.
 
Seems right.
 
But there are disadvantages to books, too: they catch fire.  They hate water.  They fall apart under extreme abuse.  So let's call them fragile foci, too.  What's the final value on 5 points of OAF fragile/breakable in your favorite version of the game? What other advantages or limitations are there to carrying around books?  I'm not going to worry about that simply because this has already gone on far too long; I have little doubt that anyone more interested than me could justify both books that cost 30cp and books that were completely free; possible even books that give you a point back just for owning it (I'm looking at you, Deepak Chockra or however you spell it).
 
But once we have that cost, we multiply it be the number of books we want in our phone: using the base five points determined above by not-quite-completely-arbitrary means, I decide I want sixteen books in my phone  (I cheated: I just looked at how many books I actually have in my phone right now    ).  At five points each, my phone-- before anything else gets bought-- costs 80cp.  I think I'm going to build a gadget / book pool instead: after all, I can only read one at a time, and I can switch back and forth almost whenever I want; it's a nice simulation of downloading / deleting, too, so... Bonus!    .   Of course, if I just pay the 80 cp, then my phone now has 80 rPD, because five per book, right?  No?  Is it because different books have different rPD and we have to figure all sixteen of them individually?  I'll need to make a cheat sheet for my book pool, then.
 
That wasn't the problem?  Ah, of course: the STR minimums for the books!  I could never hope to carry sixteen copies of HS 5e without suffering an encumbrance penalty.  What was I thinking?  So let's round it off and say that with these sixteen books my phone now weighs  one-hundred-and-twelve pounds.  That's not going to cut it.  Fine.  We'll use PDFs.  No STR minimum; no encumbrance, much more powerful reliance on electricity.  So now we've got to figure out the value in CP of PDFs.  For simplicity's sake, let's say that they are the same AP as books, minus that rPD.  Sounds like a savings, but you don't get to down-cost with STR Min, either.    
 
Yes; that's gone on _way_ to far.  Thanks for indulging it.  Sincerely: thanks for putting up with that.  But it does come down to what do you charge a superhero for a book?  What do you charge him for a calculator?  What do you charge him for the world's absolute crappiest flashlight?  What's the END cost for lighting up the screen?  How does it vary when it auto-levels the brightness?  How much END for each additional window / tab / program you have open?    We're going to have to keep up with that if we build the thing.
 
 
Now I'd like to take a minute to revisit an earlier comment: I would charge for this sort of super crime-busting equipment were my game set in the world of 1982 because of the advantages it presents.  Maybe not much, because of the disadvantages it has as well.  To be equally straightforward, I would charge _today_ for a no-limitations custom, super-device with none of the inherent problems of an off-the-shelf phone.  But I can't charge for a cell phone because it doesn't provide an advantage or a leg-up or anything that your villains don't already have.  In fact, unless you were born super, you probably had this amazing device-- or something not unlike it-- before you actually became a made character.  It's something that, in the first world, at any rate, a staggering number of adults and pre adults have.  I might actually consider giving a _disadvantage_ to a character who refuses to have one in a modern setting.  (which, interestingly enough, is another rules-legal way to give everyone an "everyman" cell phone that works the way the GM says it does).
 
 
And this whole thing-- well, mostly the reactions of "you have to build it and charge points for it"-- is what drove me away from this board years ago.  In my heart, I truly believe it's why HERO died in popularity:  when I hear or read people complain about the "complexity" and the "math" involved, I ask questions.  More times than not, it is not the actual math (though that comes up a lot-- unfairly, I think-- with regard to character creation),  it boils down to being sick to death of "_having to_" build every little piece of the universe.  Not GMs so much (we tend to enjoy that nonsense, just as a thought exercise), but even as players who suddenly find themselves required to "build" a costume that stays clean or a cape that always moves as if stirred by a soft breeze, or being told that their secret ID character cannot use the spike of her high-heeled shoe as a weapon applied to the temple of her assailant because she hasn't paid points to assign damage to it as a weapon, so she just gets STR damage.
 
  "No, Jimmy: you're clothing never has dryer lint!  No; I would _love_ to charge you for dryer lint, but I haven't had the time to build dryer lint just yet.  Give me a couple of weeks; things will slow down some, and I'll get right on it."
 
Cell phones.  Home furniture.  A place to live.  These are super-ubiquitous items that I just _can't_ charge for.  Doing so just drives home that nitpickiness that outsiders hold against the system to begin with, and ultimately, except as a fun thing to wonder about, it's a huge waste of both my time and the players' XP.  I won't charge for a cell phone anymore than I would charge for a domino mask.
 
 
Oooh!  Domino mask!   Concealment, 22 or less...    Or maybe +5 to the character's existing concealment?-- personal identity only... OIF-- OAF if we're feeling risky.....   Maybe plusses to PRE, since no one is _really_ comfortable being yelled at by  a stranger?  Actually, that sounds good:  Concealment 22 or less, personal identity only, +5 PRE.  Oooh-- would the Reputation Disadplication hinge on that mask?  If Robin showed up without his mask, would people still know he was Robin?  If not, then the value of the Reputation total should be reduced to show it's Linked to the mask.  Linked?  Only in HERO ID?  Does anyone have a reputation that only applies in HERO ID?  We should retcon all the characters in this campai-- nah; too much work.  We'll start it with the next campaign.  Maybe the Reputation has a Dependance on the domino mask?  Or it's like a spell ingredient?  Have to give that one some thought. :/  Wait!  Reputation:  Triggered by viewing the domino-- eh.. I think that has some problems, too.  Granted, when Robin's not there, he's still got the reputation when people speak of him...  Though they are going to see him as having the mask, every time.....  So the mask is important to it....
 
Oh-- can he get accidental change if the mask is prone to fall off?  Or take the same value as the focus and remove that value from his super-heroic physical and psych lims....?
 
 
It just goes on.
 
Some stuff just isn't worth doing, and for my games-- do yours how you want, obviously-- everyday stuff-- the things you have in pocket (unless you're like me enough to have a couple of knives on you as you sit here) as you sit down to browse a good book....   I'm not going to charge for, period.
 
(Cue Hugh finding some really clever and highly lethal combination of the stuff in my pockets that's worth at least 30pts as a combat-usable something or other.        (You can't use the knives; I've already copped to those))
 
 
 

If the phone were that smart it would write itself up!

I get you, Amigo.  
 
I feel like that about The Black Hole.  At least, about my self-made expurgated version, where I erased every scene with VINCENT and BOB after the landing on the Cygnus.
 
Trust me; it's _way_ better that way.
 
 

Man, I'm lucky if I can find the vegetable peeler in my kitchen.