Fantasy Hero - Enchantment Sword Fire - (How do i build ...)

[Johannes]

A Firewizard wants to enchant swords with flames so they do more damage.

He wants to "fire and forget" his enchantment and have it end after a duration.

This includes:

- making the power 0 END

- having the effect be disconnected from the caster in any way

- allowing multiple casts and multiple effects at the same time

 

Ideas i gathered from multiple sources so far:

- simulate the ammount of targets with an area of effect.

- simulate the ammount of targets with adders to doulbe the targets

- useable as attack on the sword.

- useable on others and uncontrolled.

- transform sword into sword with power (Nd6 vs burning-power-independent)

 

Why i still struggle:

- The amount of parallel existing fires depends on the speed of the caster

- If the power is constant/persistant the caster can only maintain one instance at a time.

 

How should this power be built?

[Ndreare]

Clarified: See below

[IndianaJoe3]

I'd build this as an Aid. That seems to cover all of the bases.

[Hyper-Man]

Creating an enchantment for others is one of the more complicated effects to build in HERO.  Differing Modifiers is the tool for the job.

 

Here is an old 5er post from 2009 that might help explain it. 

 

from:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/71523-how-would-you-model-this/?p=1830457

*the links from this thread do not work now because of a server migration that happened last year.

 

 

Re: How Would You Model This?



Aid is certainly one of the easiest ways to go (as well as Limited STR or CSL's) but dealing with the fade rate is still an issue.

Here's a much more complicated method you could also use:

The 6 Million Dollar Weapon - Part 1 (Primary Effect), all slots OIF (Existing Weapon Of Opportunity; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4)
15 1) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (2 1/2d6 w/STR) (vs. ED) (30 Active Points) - END=0
2 2) +1 with HTH Combat (5 Active Points)
6 CASTING (The 6 Million Dollar Weapon) - Part 2 (Casting via Naked Modifier): Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 17 Active Points of Part 1, Persistent (+1/2) (6 Active Points) - END=1
-18 CASTING (The 6 Million Dollar Weapon) - Part 3 (Limitations on Primary Effect & Castiing via Differing Modifier): (23 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; Applies only to END cost of Part 2; -2), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Platinum Coin; -1), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) for up to 23 Points of Parts 1 & 2 [Notes: Total Real Cost = 5 (15+2+6-18). Total Active Cost = 41 (30+5+6). Costs 5 END to Caster to start (Ignore listed END cost on Part 3). See 5er pages 276-277 for explanation of Differing Modifiers. See this link (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1487795&postcount=16) for HDv3 build of book example. If using a Framework based spell system this entire build (parts 1 2 and 3) should be saved separately and listed on the character sheet as a Custom Power noting Real and Active costs.] - END=10


And Let's Make that a Flaming Weapon (List - Linked to The 6 Million Dollar Weapon)
14 1) Flaming Weapon - Part 1 (Primary Effect): Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Penetrating (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Continuous (+1) (24 Active Points); Limited Power Only Affects Material Objects Which Strike Weapon (Flaming; -1/2), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) - END=[1 cc]
4 2) CASTING (Flaming Weapon) - Part 2 (Casting via Naked Modifier): Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 14 Active Points of Part 1, Persistent (+1/2) (4 Active Points) - END=1
-15 3) CASTING (Flaming Weapon) - Part 3 (Limitations on Primary Effect & Castiing via Differing Modifier): (18 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; Applies only to END cost of Part 2; -2), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Platinum Coin; -1), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Linked (Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand; The 6 Million Dollar Weapon - Part 1; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) for up to 18 Points of Parts 1 & 2 [Notes: Total Real Cost = 3 (14+4-15). Total Active Cost = 28 (24+4). Costs 5 END to Caster to start (Ignore listed END cost on Part 3). See 5er pages 276-277 for explanation of Differing Modifiers. See this link (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1487795&postcount=16) for HDv3 build of book example. If using a Framework based spell system this entire build (parts 1 2 and 3) should be saved separately and listed on the character sheet as a Custom Power noting Real and Active costs.] - END=10

One advantage of this method is that it clearly defines the maximum weapon damage after the effect is applied (where Aid and the other methods just add X to the initial weapon damage).

[Johannes]

"Is there a limit to how many swords he can affect at once or is it like creating a table. Sell it and make a new one?"

There is no limit. Maka a table and make the next one before the old one is sold.

"Doors the spell wear off with time or its it permanently in effect?"

There would be a fixed timelimit in the form of n-Turns.

 

"I'd build this as an Aid. That seems to cover all of the bases."

Like in: Aid the Fire-power and assume a startingvalue of 0 for the Fire-power?

 

@Quixotic Hero #4046

I am sorry, i dont really get how i can apply that to the fire sword.

Can you give an example?

[Greywind]

@Quixotic Hero #4046

 

 

Hey, Hyper, I'm laughing my ass off.

[Oruncrest]

Well, color me complicated, but wouldn't the solution be a combo of Time Limit, Reduced End, and Damage Shield? Like So:

 

Formed Sword Blazing!: 1D6 RKA, Only Costs END To Activate (+1/4), Area Effect (Surface of sword, doesn't affect hilt, +1/4), Time Limit (5 minutes, +1); Active Cost: 37; END 3

 

 

That way he only pays END for casting the spell, not maintaining it and can cast it as many times as he has END. If he does run out of END, the last casting will still be good for 5 minutes, so he can always cast it on his dagger last and still try to be effective in a fight.

[Hyper-Man]

"Is there a limit to how many swords he can affect at once or is it like creating a table. Sell it and make a new one?"

There is no limit. Maka a table and make the next one before the old one is sold.

"Doors the spell wear off with time or its it permanently in effect?"

There would be a fixed timelimit in the form of n-Turns.

 

"I'd build this as an Aid. That seems to cover all of the bases."

Like in: Aid the Fire-power and assume a startingvalue of 0 for the Fire-power?

 

@Quixotic Hero #4046

I am sorry, i dont really get how i can apply that to the fire sword.

Can you give an example?

 

@Standard Normal / Johannas

 

That post was the answer to an old question on how to build a spell that increases the damage any* edged weapon does.

*personal or wielded by an ally.

 

The 1st part  (6 million dollar*) was designed to make the weapon the best 'normal' weapon it could possibly be (if cast on a normal axe or sword it pegs their base damage as 2d6 Killing with no STR Minimum and +1 OCV, higher than any 'normal' published edged weapon).

 

*The 6 Million Dollar title was a nod to the old TV show "The 6 Million Dollar Man" - "Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world's first bionic man."

 

The 2nd part (let's make that a flaming weapon) was an afterthought at the time but could easily be isolated as a singular effect.  It was the part that was the answer to YOUR question. 

 

You need to look at the Differing Modifier rules within whatever rulebook you have to understand what's going on with the build.  There are extensive examples in 5e, 5er and 6e1 and a brief description in Champions Complete.  The 3-part nature of each example is partly due to the nature of how Hero Designer works as well.

[Hyper-Man]

Well, color me complicated, but wouldn't the solution be a combo of Time Limit, Reduced End, and Damage Shield? Like So:

 

 

 

That way he only pays END for casting the spell, not maintaining it and can cast it as many times as he has END. If he does run out of END, the last casting will still be good for 5 minutes, so he can always cast it on his dagger last and still try to be effective in a fight.

 

That solution works fine if he is just enchanting a personal weapon. It's not designed to be used on the weapons of others (especially simultaneously).

 

I've even come up with something similar in the past.

 

from:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/66371-continuing-charges/?p=1688867

 

 

Re: Continuing charges

 

updated per suggestions:

 

BIC Claymore v2.0 (List), all slots OAF (Sword; -1)

22 1) Blade: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (2 1/2d6 w/STR), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (45 Active Points) - END=0

23 2) Flame On: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6, 4 clips of 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 20 Minutes (+0), Penetrating (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Continuous (+1) (64 Active Points); No STR Bonus (-1/2), Linked (Blade; -1/4) - END=[1 cc]

 

 

 

Technically the Damage Shield (or AOE Surface if using 6e rules) only applies to the Blade but I forgot to add a Limitation noting it.

[Hyper-Man]

The issue with an Aid based approach for such an effect is dealing with the Fade Rate rules.  Normally, after 1 Turn the amount Aided is reduced by 5 Active Points.  If the idea is to create a spell that works similar to 1 guy with a torch lighting up the 'molitov cocktail' arrows of several ready archers then it would end up taking to long to be effective for more than 3-4 recipients. 

[Ndreare]

He wants to be able to create unlimited magic items, not dependent on him maintaining anything. I would see this as either a Skill or a Transform.

 

I would build it like the following. to represent he is actually working to create it using his enchantment skills. The cumulative rolls to make the sword would take him about 15 hours (45 body) figuring it is a 22 active point sword being turned into a 45 active point sword.

 

3 Enchant Weapon: Severe Transform 1d6 (Normal Sword into Flaming Sword) (15 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Hour, -3), Requires A Roll (Alchemy Roll; -1/2) 1

 

 

 

However if you wanted you could also do it as the following if the GM was worried about it getting out of hand. Although IMHO this is an unnatural way to build it, but allows for a much faster kick off.

 

9 Enchant Sword: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Usable By Other (+1/4), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (41 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Hour, -3), Requires A Roll (Alchemy Roll; -1/2)

0

 

 

This method uses reduced endurance 0 and uncontrolled to allow the effect to last until the counter effect happens (whatever that may be).

[Hyper-Man]

He wants to be able to create unlimited magic items, not dependent on him maintaining anything. I would see this as either a Skill or a Transform.

 

Actually he wants the enchantment to end after a set period of time

 

A Firewizard wants to enchant swords with flames so they do more damage.

He wants to "fire and forget" his enchantment and have it end after a duration.

This includes:

- making the power 0 END

- having the effect be disconnected from the caster in any way

- allowing multiple casts and multiple effects at the same time

 

 

Differing Modifiers is one of the best ways to model this.

 

from http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/57379-build-rune-magic-flight/?p=1414080

 

*The example below was built using 5er but the same rules are found in 6e1 on page 359.

 

Re: Build: Rune Magic - Flight

 

Here's a HDv3 build of the example from the book on pages 276-277:

 

Gift of Flight Spell (by Arkelos)

[Notes: Total Cost = 5 points. END cost for Caster = 2*. END cost for recipient of spell = 5. HD figures the END cost from Active cost for parts 2 & 3 seperately but they should be counted together (3 + 16 = 19, 19/10 = 2 END). edit: Now I confused myself again. More later.]

13 1) GIFT OF FLIGHT, Part 1(Primary Effect): Flight 10" (20 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2) - END=4

3 2) Casting GIFT OF FLIGHT, Part 2 (Casting via Naked Modifier): Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 13 Active Points of Part 1 (3 Active Points) - END=1

-11 3) Casting GIFT OF FLIGHT, Part 3 (Limitations on Primary Effect & Castiing via Differing Modifier): (16 Active Points); OAF (Magic Wand; -1), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) for up to 16 Points of Parts 1 & 2 - END=2

[Ndreare]

Actually he wants the enchantment to end after a set period of time

 

 

Differing Modifiers is one of the best ways to model this.

 

from http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/57379-build-rune-magic-flight/?p=1414080

 

*The example below was built using 5er but the same rules are found in 6e1 on page 359.

 

I see were you are confused Hyper-man. You apparently thought I was responsible enough to read/understand his whole post before posting mine.

 

Although with that in mind the transform could still work by changing the condition, but it would cost me and be harder to use so it would be silly.

[Johannes]

@Hyper-Man

I read the Section on differing modifiers in my 5E book on page 276 and i think i understand your example now.

What i do not see is how the caster is justified in casting often.

 

Suppose the GIFTED-Power lasts for 5 Turns.

At Speed 1 a character can cast the power 5 Times.

At Speed 12 a character can cast the power 60 Times.

 

UOO-GIVER

Advantages for 5 targets is + 1.00.

Advantages for 60 targets is + 1.75.

 

I can now see how i would GIVE a GIFT-Power.

I somehow can not grasp the advantages / adders to make it recastable.

 

The only thing i can think of is a general advantage of +2 for beeing really useful.

[Hyper-Man]

If you will define the parameters you want the spell to follow in plain English I will attempt to translate them into HERO format. 

 

The big idea behind Differing Modifiers is that they allow you to define one set of Limitations for the casting of the spell and another completely different set of Limitations that affect the recipient of the spell.

[Johannes]

The power that i need to build would be as follows in the grimoire.

END Cost for casting does not exist in this world.

 

Flameweapon:

Wizardry Difficulty: - X

Casting Range 10 yards.

Duration 10 Turns

Effect: + 1d6 HKA vs ED (+ 1 DC / 5 EGO of Wizard)

 

The wizard conjures a small flame as he gestures wiledly.

The flame leaps to the target sword to cover its blade with fire.

When the gained D6 shows a 6 the flames burn so hot that the swordweilder takes one damage.

[Hyper-Man]

The power that i need to build would be as follows in the grimoire.

END Cost for casting does not exist in this world.

 

Flameweapon:

Wizardry Difficulty: - X

Casting Range 10 yards.

Duration 10 Turns

Effect: + 1d6 HKA vs ED (+ 1 DC / 5 EGO of Wizard)

 

The wizard conjures a small flame as he gestures wiledly.

The flame leaps to the target sword to cover its blade with fire.

When the gained D6 shows a 6 the flames burn so hot that the swordweilder takes one damage.

 

Is this a spell from another RPG and if so which one?

[Hyper-Man]

Hey, Hyper, I'm laughing my ass off.

 

Laugh it up "Triple".  At least if someone were to follow the 4046 link in my sig it would lead them to a thread of super names with a specific name associated with that number.

[Oruncrest]

That solution works fine if he is just enchanting a personal weapon. It's not designed to be used on the weapons of others (especially simultaneously).

 

Where'd you get that idea? The range of AOE (Surface) isn't implied to be 'personal' like Damage Shield was in 4th & 5th editions.

 

(That said, the original poster seems to be running off of a copy of 5th edition, which means that my suggestion's pretty much useless to him unless he and his GM handwave it into their game, sorry about that).

[Johannes]

It is simmilar to, but legally distinkt from, the Earth Dawn Flameweapon Page 158 in the 3rd Printing 1995 Base Rulebook.

[Chris Goodwin]

Usable By Others includes an option for All Recipients Within 10m (+1).  Combine that with a Time Limit for however long it's supposed to last.  Just build it as an RKA, No Range, with Usable By Others (most likely With Differing Modifiers).  The recipient can use it as a Combined Attack with their own sword.  

[Johannes]

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

I build the power now the following way.

 

Flameweapon:

Wizardry Difficulty: - 5

Casting Range 225 Hex

Duration (5 + Wizardy Roll)

The wizard conjures a small flame as he gestures wildly.

The flame leaps to the target sword to cover its blade with fire.

When the gained D6 shows a 6 the flames burn so hot that the swordwielder takes one damage.

 

Casting the Spell:

Transform (H5.237)

Transform Heals completely after (5 + Wizardy Roll) Turns.

Swords have less than 7 Body

Enchantment Real/5 = 2 Body

Major Transform 9 Body

Standard Effect Rule (H5.104)

=> 45 pts Base

-0.5 RSR Wizardry

-0.25 Gestures to activate

Active 45

Real 26

 

Firesword Enchantment:

HKA vs ED (H5.194) 1d6 15pts

-0.5 no STR Bonus

-0.25 minor Side effect 1 BODY damage when damage roll of Fire was a Six

Active 15.

Real 9

[Christopher]

There are át least 2 parts that have to be solved seperately:

1) How do you write up a "flaming sword" in the first place?

Due to the way defenses work, just adding another Damage doing power (like HKA, no Strenght or RKA, no Range, Damage Shield that covers the blade) is likely not a good idea. Your extra damage would go against an extra set of defenses too, propably negating most of the effect.

What I personally like most to simualte a Flaming Sword is the 6E APG Advantage "Multiple Special effects". This let's a weapon/power count as wichever special effect (of 2 or more) is worse for the target, after conditional defenses, vulnerabilities, regeneration weakspots, desolid weakspots and the like are considered.

A mace with spikes could count as both piercing and blunt (wichver is worse).

A Flaming sword could count as both Flame and "Sword/cutting special effect"

A anti Werewolf Silver Sword could counts as "Silver" and "Sword" special effects.

 

So maybe a Naked Advantage (Multiple Special effects). Combined with either personal extra DC or an Aid (to improove attack base power).

 

2) Granting this ability to others.

Usually your powers only work "for you".

Foci and Physical Manifestations can be ocassionally loaned to other characters. If that happens too often, it stops being the right modifier

If it is regulary give to other characters, Useable by others or one of it's variants is usually best. It is specifically designed for this purpose.