Movement as a zero phase action?

[Crusher Bob]

Does this look ok to anyone else:

 

-12 Sell back all running
-2 Sell back all swimming
-2 Sell back all leaping
(-14 total)

 

18 pt reserve multipower
(all with:
Trigger:
Trigger condition is set when trigger is created (+1/2)
Activating Trigger is a 0 phase action (+0)
Setting trigger is a 0 phase action (+1/4)
Trigger expires: trigger only lasts a single phase (-1/4 less)
Total (+1/2)
)
2 fixed slot: 12m running
1 fixed slot: 20m leaping
1 fixed slot: 20m swimming
(22 pts total)

 

So, for 6 points, you get a lot of leaping and swimming, and your movement is reduced to a zero phase action,

 

Effects:

You can now do a full phase action (take a recovery) and still move

You can move after taking a phase ending action (like attack)

Would have to look, can you take 0 phase actions when you are aborting?  If so, this means that you also get a free move/dive for cover when you abort to dodge

You have much better tactical mobility, since you get a full phase worth of movement.  So, for example, you can run 12 meters and then attack.  If you had 18m of running (same cost) you could only move 9m and then attack.

 

------------------

 

Movement as multipower seems a bit OP, but I think that's mostly because the first meter of every type of movement is severely undercosted.  Movement guy only pays one to five points to be able to teleport or fly at his full movement.

 

Is it worth thinking about changing the movement powers to more of a power construct, where you pay points for how fast you can move, and then pay points for access to a particular kind of movement?  With, I guess, price reductions on a mode of movement if it's limited to some fraction of your movement pool

 

So instead of having 12m running, 4m leaping, 4m swimming the everyman movement package is:

movement allowance: 12m x2 NCM

Movement modes:

running (full movement allowance))

swimming (only 1/6 allowance)

leaping (only 1/6 allowance)

 

And if you want to fly, you pay (some amount of points) for access to flight.  And if you want to fly fast, you pay for more raw movement or raw NCM.

 

This may also get around oddities like how everyone wants leaping for in combat movement, since it lets you half move twice as far. 

(Currently if you want to have high tactical movement, you should put your fastest movement mode in a multipower and then add a slot for leaping,)

This may also solve the problem of leaping being the goto movement choice for move throughs because velocity is cheaper.

[TheDarkness]

Interesting. I've kind of thought a bit about implementing a change in the movement rules as a house rule, but I hadn't thought through the mechanics of it.

 

My main reasoning on it was the choppiness of aspects of it, which, I think, is the difficulty of including speedsters.

 

I've actually been working on designing a game of my own, and that was one aspect that influenced my own design. Because of speedsters, if you allow moves in all rounds, speedsters are going to benefit more than anyone else.

 

My workaround has been to allow movement in any round, in Hero I would say any segment, regardless of whether you have an action(this is to get around the whole time freezing as all the normals running away from the combat stop moving except two segments in the round, for example, among other things), but, that movement could only be starting movement minus any that was sold back, not bought movement, and the rationale is that even speedsters couldn't just endlessly use their power, they run, then move normally, then bolt for their next pass.

 

I'll have to think about what you have above.

[Cantriped]

1)  The "Trigger" has to be "easily verifiable" with commonly possessed senses. For example, "Snapping your Fingers" or "Clicking your Heels" are legal Triggers, but "Thinking About Moving" is not. As such, you cannot define the Trigger as simply "Taking a Zero Phase Action", you have to define what that Zero Phase Action is.

 

2)  The fact that the Trigger Expires should not be considered to be worth any "Less Advantage" value on this power construct, because it doesn't cost you anything to set the trigger. However there is no reason to have to set a different trigger every time either; it could always just be "Clicking Your Heels" or "Snapping your Fingers", which would mean the actual advantage value remains the same.

 

3)  Zero Phase actions can only be performed at the beginning of your phase, or after a half phase action, they cannot ever be performed after an Attack. Adding or Removing Velocity are special Zero Phases actions which can each only be performed once per phase, so regardless of how you build the Trigger modifier you can still only activate the movement power once per phase; since you cannot deactivate the movement power until you reach 0 velocity, and you can't accelerate or decelerate twice in the same phase.

 

Beyond those points; As a GM I would probably never let a player purchase such a power construct (or anything remotely like it). The whole thing stinks of the worst sort of power-gaming

[Chris Goodwin]

Using the movement is a Full Phase Action (for your full movement) or a Half-Phase (for half your movement).  Trigger just activates the Movement Power; it doesn't let you actually do anything with it.  

 

It's like, when you hit someone with your Blast?  Technically, you're activating the Blast (for a Zero Phase) then using it to attack with (for a Half-Phase combat action).  

[eepjr24]

Aside from the issues that Cantriped (munchkiny) and Chris (still takes time to execute move, no matter how it is triggered) brought up, leaping can also be problematic in combat since it requires an attack roll. Even over relatively short distances (17-20m) a character with a base OCV of 7 will miss over 1/4 of the time. With a OCV of 5 you miss 50% of the time.

 

Players generally don't think Leaping is such a good buy for combat movement once they realize that. Non-combat movement also takes an extra phase for each doubling, so other forms generally end up faster and more accurate at the base level.

 

- E

[Scott Baker]

1)  The "Trigger" has to be "easily verifiable" with commonly possessed senses. For example, "Snapping your Fingers" or "Clicking your Heels" are legal Triggers, but "Thinking About Moving" is not. As such, you cannot define the Trigger as simply "Taking a Zero Phase Action", you have to define what that Zero Phase Action is.

 

2)  The fact that the Trigger Expires should not be considered to be worth any "Less Advantage" value on this power construct, because it doesn't cost you anything to set the trigger. However there is no reason to have to set a different trigger every time either; it could always just be "Clicking Your Heels" or "Snapping your Fingers", which would mean the actual advantage value remains the same.

 

3)  Zero Phase actions can only be performed at the beginning of your phase, or after a half phase action, they cannot ever be performed after an Attack. Adding or Removing Velocity are special Zero Phases actions which can each only be performed once per phase, so regardless of how you build the Trigger modifier you can still only activate the movement power once per phase; since you cannot deactivate the movement power until you reach 0 velocity, and you can't accelerate or decelerate twice in the same phase.

 

Beyond those points; As a GM I would probably never let a player purchase such a power construct (or anything remotely like it). The whole thing stinks of the worst sort of power-gaming

 

 

Using the movement is a Full Phase Action (for your full movement) or a Half-Phase (for half your movement).  Trigger just activates the Movement Power; it doesn't let you actually do anything with it.  

 

It's like, when you hit someone with your Blast?  Technically, you're activating the Blast (for a Zero Phase) then using it to attack with (for a Half-Phase combat action).  

 

 

Aside from the issues that Cantriped (munchkiny) and Chris (still takes time to execute move, no matter how it is triggered) brought up, leaping can also be problematic in combat since it requires an attack roll. Even over relatively short distances (17-20m) a character with a base OCV of 7 will miss over 1/4 of the time. With a OCV of 5 you miss 50% of the time.

 

Players generally don't think Leaping is such a good buy for combat movement once they realize that. Non-combat movement also takes an extra phase for each doubling, so other forms generally end up faster and more accurate at the base level.

 

- E

What they said, only with more colorful language.

[eepjr24]

 

18 pt reserve multipower

(all with:

Trigger:

Trigger condition is set when trigger is created (+1/2)

Activating Trigger is a 0 phase action (+0)

Setting trigger is a 0 phase action (+1/4)

Trigger expires: trigger only lasts a single phase (-1/4 less)

Total (+1/2)

)

2 fixed slot: 12m running

1 fixed slot: 20m leaping

1 fixed slot: 20m swimming

(22 pts total)

 

Effects:

You can now do a full phase action (take a recovery) and still move

You can move after taking a phase ending action (like attack)

Would have to look, can you take 0 phase actions when you are aborting?  If so, this means that you also get a free move/dive for cover when you abort to dodge

You have much better tactical mobility, since you get a full phase worth of movement.  So, for example, you can run 12 meters and then attack.  If you had 18m of running (same cost) you could only move 9m and then attack.

 

Just going to address the "effects" you list in order as well.

1. Full Phase actions remove the ability to use a zero phase action (6e2, 18).

2. Same with attack actions (6e2, 18).

3. Aborting allows the use of defensive powers, so if the GM ruled that your power was defensive you could abort to it.

4. Not so, because the full move would end your phase.

 

And just in case someone was wondering about the rules that govern this beyond the Trigger rules, see 6e1, 14: (more detail can be found on 6e2, 18 as well)

 

 

A character may take an Action in each of his Phases. His Actions may include Full Phase Actions (which require his entire Phase) or Half Phase Actions, which require only half of his Phase (in other words, he can perform two Half Phase Actions per Phase). Full Phase Actions include using more than half of your meters of movement or recovering from being Stunned. Half Phase Actions include using up to half your meters of movement.

[Lucius]

Using the movement is a Full Phase Action (for your full movement) or a Half-Phase (for half your movement).  Trigger just activates the Movement Power; it doesn't let you actually do anything with it.  

 

It's like, when you hit someone with your Blast?  Technically, you're activating the Blast (for a Zero Phase) then using it to attack with (for a Half-Phase combat action).

If this were the case - Trigger allows you to "activate" a Power but not "actually do anything with it" - then there would be no particular reason for the Trigger Advantage to exist in the first place.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Summon Palindromedary on a Trigger

[Chris Goodwin]

If this were the case - Trigger allows you to "activate" a Power but not "actually do anything with it" - then there would be particular reason for the Trigger Advantage to exist in the first place.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Summon Palindromedary on a Trigger

 

It certainly doesn't give you free Full Phases for moving on. 

 

Edited, in light of later posts, to add:  It doesn't in my games, without some serious discussion.  You certainly don't get a "free movement, whenever I want it," power.

[Crusher Bob]

Just going to address the "effects" you list in order as well.

1. Full Phase actions remove the ability to use a zero phase action (6e2, 18).

2. Same with attack actions (6e2, 18).

3. Aborting allows the use of defensive powers, so if the GM ruled that your power was defensive you could abort to it.

4. Not so, because the full move would end your phase.

 

And just in case someone was wondering about the rules that govern this beyond the Trigger rules, see 6e1, 14: (more detail can be found on 6e2, 18 as well)

 

1.

The book explicitly says you can perform zero phase actions before performing your full phase action. 

 

... no other Actions that Phase, with two exceptions: he can perform one or more Zero Phase Actions (see below) before performing his Full Phase Action...

So you can set the trigger before you do your action; the trigger condition would be (when I do <whatever>.)  You'd just need to upgrade the trigger to take no time to go off. 

 

2.

Same thing with attack.  You start your turn, set your trigger condition to: when I attack that guy, and then have your trigger go off after you attacked the guy.  Once again, just requires upgrading the trigger advantage.

 

3.

The bare movement is certainly something that can be aborted to.  It's pretty much a dive for cover that doesn't require a dex roll and doesn't have any other disadvantages.  But, can you abort to block or dodge, use a zero phase action to set your trigger, then use the movement and the do the aborted action?  In theory, we want to speedster to be able to suddenly be standing <over there> blocking an attack for someone else, but without the ability to move, that's not possible.

 

As for 'dodging' incoming attacks, I'd assume that people who were shooting at you can still shoot at you if you were still a valid target, and people who were coming over there to hit you can then (semi retroactively) spend as much movement as they had available and wanted to use (assuming they had already taken a half phase move, or had a half phase otherwise available) to potentially chase you down and hit you anyway.  Of course, if you have 'enough' triggered movement, you could be quite far away.

Of course, an equally fast speedster doing constant move-bys seems to be just as bad.

 

4.

Trigger has to give you 'actions' because it doesn't do anything otherwise 

 

--------------------

 

The expiration on the trigger was supposed to be a limit to show that it was still the characters 'regular' movement.  If it was a time unlimited trigger, you could do things like set the trigger to 'when I'm CON stunned' or something and get actions when you were otherwise unable to do anything.  Putting the 'expires: one segment' on the power means you have to have had an action in that segment to do anything with the power at all.

[Crusher Bob]

It certainly doesn't give you free Full Phases for moving on. 

 

Movement powers are implicitly something you can use the trigger advantage on.  There have been several official answers about them.

[Chris Goodwin]

Movement powers are implicitly something you can use the trigger advantage on.  There have been several official answers about them.

 

You are correct; I did just go through the rules questions forum.  There have been several official answers, true, plus caveat statements like:

 

Yes, it would be legal in a technical sense -- but whether the GM would allow it is another thing altogether.

 

Here.

[Crusher Bob]

Part of the reason I wanted to explore this rules construct is to give speedsters something like a move by but based on the 'strike' mechanic instead of 'move by'.  This way, you can let speedsters have as much velocity as they want, and still control their effective DC.  You replace 'move by' with either 'strike - triggered move' or 'regular move - strike - triggered move'. 

 

I thought stretching could be used as a simple stand in for 'i go over there and do <thing> and then go over <there>'.  But alas, stretching doesn't seem to allow for moving your point of view.    So without clairsentience, you can't 'go over there and look at the thing' and then come back over here.  Of course, you could take two half moves and do just that, but then your perception roll would be the 0 phase action type roll.  Plus you have real trouble punching the guy around the corner, which the 'moving speedster' doesn't.

[Crusher Bob]

I also keep bringing up (abort) dodge + move and (abort) block + move as well.  You'd think that these would both be potentially OP.  Alas anyone can take the flying dodge martial arts maneuver (5 points) and get +4 DCV (dodge) abort + full move.  So apparently abort dodge + (full) move is something that's AOK...

[Chris Goodwin]

Part of the reason I wanted to explore this rules construct is to give speedsters something like a move by but based on the 'strike' mechanic instead of 'move by'.  This way, you can let speedsters have as much velocity as they want, and still control their effective DC.  You replace 'move by' with either 'strike - triggered move' or 'regular move - strike - triggered move'. 

 

I thought stretching could be used as a simple stand in for 'i go over there and do <thing> and then go over <there>'.  But alas, stretching doesn't seem to allow for moving your point of view.    So without clairsentience, you can't 'go over there and look at the thing' and then come back over here.  Of course, you could take two half moves and do just that, but then your perception roll would be the 0 phase action type roll.  Plus you have real trouble punching the guy around the corner, which the 'moving speedster' doesn't.

 

All right, we're getting somewhere.  There's some context; it's not just a naked Power construction.  

 

Although, I'm not at all certain what you're missing.  You can make a half move and then choose to perform a Move By; you just need to plot out the rest of your movement.  There's no reason at all you can't maintain your velocity during the half move.  And I'm not sure what the 0 phase action type perception roll is; I know that you get a bonus for taking a half Phase, and more of one for taking a full Phase, but why not just buy something like "Superspeed Perception - +2 to PER Rolls"?  

 

I also keep bringing up (abort) dodge + move and (abort) block + move as well.  You'd think that these would both be potentially OP.  Alas anyone can take the flying dodge martial arts maneuver (5 points) and get +4 DCV (dodge) abort + full move.  So apparently abort dodge + (full) move is something that's AOK...

 

Not just anyone -- you have to take it as part of Martial Arts -- 10 points or more worth of Martial Arts maneuvers.  Also, I don't have my Martial Arts book in front of me -- is there a warning sign on that maneuver?  Both Dodge and Block end your Phase, unless that's changed in the last edition or two and I just haven't noticed?  (Not impossible...)  They've always been "combat actions", which is a half-Phase action that ends your Phase regardless of when you perform it.  

[Sean Waters]

Does this look ok to anyone else:

 

...

 

So, for 6 points, you get a lot of leaping and swimming, and your movement is reduced to a zero phase action,

 

Effects:

You can now do a full phase action (take a recovery) and still move

You can move after taking a phase ending action (like attack)

Would have to look, can you take 0 phase actions when you are aborting?  If so, this means that you also get a free move/dive for cover when you abort to dodge

You have much better tactical mobility, since you get a full phase worth of movement.  So, for example, you can run 12 meters and then attack.  If you had 18m of running (same cost) you could only move 9m and then attack.

 

....

 

 

 

Y'see, Crusher Bob, this is what GMs are for...

 

 Very inventive, but no.

[Sean Waters]

If I was going to re-do Movement Powers, and I'm not, you understand, but if I was...

 

Movement power

For 1 point you can move 1 metre during your phase.  You can use movement power to add to your damage for certain combat manoeuvres.  

 

Costs 1 END per 10m of movement (1/5 in heroic games)

 

Movement Power is Constant

 

You can modify this in various ways:

 

Leaping (inherently less accurate, requires a parabola of movement, can not change direction or stop mid-leap) -1

Swimming (requires you to be in some sort of liquid) -1

Swinging (requires you to be in an open relationship) -1

Flight (You don't need to be standing on anything but take more KB and get a turn mode) +0

Gliding (Requires Flight, you must fall at least 1 metre per phase and can not gain height unless the GM tells you otherwise) -1

Teleport (You move from one place to another without passing through the intervening space, instant, ignores most barriers and obstacles, risk of injury, can not add to damage) +0

Stretching (OK, I am serious about this, but this is not the place to explain how that works) +0

 

You can combine these if it makes sense to do so: for example you can combine Teleport and Swimming, which allows you to Teleport but only through liquids, or you could combine Swimming and Gliding which is cheap and commonly known as Sinking.

 

This would rationalise the cost of movement powers.  Leaping is still cheaper than running, but they have the same active point cost, so doubling up in a framework would not be efficient.

 

It is also MUCH shorter as a write up.

[Crusher Bob]

To the people objecting, what specific mechanical objections are you having?

 

For example:

Are you objecting to selling back all normal movement and buying movement as a multipower?  That is, admittedly pretty bad, but my original idea was to reduce the characters movement to a zero phase action, which meant they shouldn't have any non-zero phase movement.  I think the most powerful version of this power construct is move - strike - triggered move, and that requires you have some non-triggered movement available for the initial move, so you'd have to buy some regular movement anyway.

 

If you are objecting to the 'full move and still take actions' the fact that the triggered movement is it +3/4 means that it's not really much of a price break.  For example, 40m of movement costs 40 points, and 20m of movement (20 pts) and 10 pts of triggered movement (with a +3/4 trigger) (17 pts) is 37 points all together,  Both have 20m of combat movement available, but the trigger guy only has 30m of full movement available.  Which sounds like it's potentially worth a small point break...

 

If you are objecting to move -> strike -> triggered move, I'm not sure it's really any different from a moveby, but is usually slower.  40m movement guy could start at 20m away, take his full 40m of movement in the moveby and end 20m away from you.  The 20m + 10m guy can only move 10, strike, move 10.  So he's actually closer to the battlefield that regular move by guy.  This does open the door for things like move -> flash -> move and move -> entangle -> move, but those are already ranged powers.  You could move closer -> shoot -> move away, but range penalty skill levels are much cheaper than any amount of triggered movement.  Though I guess it does allow 'around the corner peek shots' that aren't otherwise available in the rules, but those can be beaten by held actions.

 

If you are objecting to abort -> dodge + move, there's both flying dodge, and the already allowable trigger (whenever I abort to dodge).  This gets you out of AOEs and haymakers, but you could already do that with dive for cover.  Assuming you let the attacker semi-retroactively complete their movement when they attack you, you aren't protected vs 'fast' people who are trying to punch you.

 

Example:

Speedster is 6m away from Brick.

Bricks turn: I go over there and punch speedster in the head.

Speeder: I abort to dodge and move an additional 10m away from Brick with triggered movement.

Brick: Thankfully, I have 32m of running, so I can still half move 6+10 meters to get to you and punch you in the head.

Speedster: well, at least I have a higher DCV.

 

I think that is actually the official ruling on triggered movement and attacks, but it looks like the old reply is no longer accessible.

 

A recovery + triggered movement does seem to not have any other rules alternatives (compared to move by and flying dodge/dive for cover).  Admittedly, fast moveby speedster is 'far' away from the battlefield, so can often take recoveries safely anyway.  But I could see ruling that all the action restrictions on taking a recovery also prevent creating and setting off your triggered movement in the same turn.

 

Since 'all' of your movement is triggered and it's all in a multipower, you could theoretically create triggers for all of them, then allocate points to an attack in the same multipower, of something like that.  But that's part of why the 'trigger expires' limitation is there.  To setup a trigger on your multipower slot, points have to be allocated to that slot.  So you couldn't make triggers for all your triggered movement modes and then trigger them at once because you don't have the points in your reserve to allocate to all your different forms of movement.  And by the time you could reallocate points to setup a different trigger, the old one has expired anyway.  Adding the limit that the triggers only last a segment seem to automatically keep a lid on all sorts of multi-trigger shenanigans.

 

Something the GM would need to watch for is deliberately building all your more expensive powers to take more time, and then making all you movement 0 phase. So your GM should stop you from making all your attacks (takes extra time: full phase) and have your (cheaper) movement powers all made 0 phase actions...

[Lucius]

It certainly doesn't give you free Full Phases for moving on.

No, but then, it doesn't have to.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary gets two full Phases. Oh wait, that's two full FACES.

[Crusher Bob]

Huh, just noticed the two faced camel joke. Had always just read it as plaindrome...

[bigdamnhero]

My workaround has been to allow movement in any round, in Hero I would say any segment, regardless of whether you have an action(this is to get around the whole time freezing as all the normals running away from the combat stop moving except two segments in the round, for example, among other things), but, that movement could only be starting movement minus any that was sold back, not bought movement, and the rationale is that even speedsters couldn't just endlessly use their power, they run, then move normally, then bolt for their next pass.

FWIW, we tried doing this, basically pro-rating Movement by Turn so that everyone moved by Segment instead of by Phase. For example, if you had 24m of Running per Turn, you moved 2m each Segment. But you only attacked/did other actions on your Phases. Seemed really cool on paper.

 

...Lasted one combat, and we couldn't drop it fast enough. YMMV, so good luck. But we thought it was a total nightmare.

[Crusher Bob]

So, the revised 'low velocity speedster' now looks like:

 

-2 Sell back all swimming
-2 Sell back all leaping
(-4 points)

+12m running (24m total)
(12 points)
 
21 pt reserve multipower
(all with:
Trigger:
Trigger condition is set when trigger is created (+1/2)
Activating Trigger is non-action (+1/4)
Setting trigger is a 0 phase action (+1/4)
Trigger expires: trigger only lasts a single phase (-1/4 less)
Total (+3/4)
)
2 fixed slot: 12m running
2 fixed slot: 24m leaping
2 fixed slot: 24m swimming
(27 pts)

(35 points total)

(add 10m running with megascale (1m = 1km) to multipower for 2 points)

 

-----------

 

This lets you run 12m -> strike -> run 12m (or leap 24, or swim 24)

Or you can dodge + run 12m (or leap 24, or swim 24)

or run 24 + 12 (or 48 + 24 is using NCM)

 

If you want to be able to leap -> strike -> leap (or whatever) you could buy a bigger multipower and fit your 'regular' movement into it.  Or buy a second multipower, which just holds you regular movement.

 

This seems to 'feel' like a speedster, especially if you spend the two additional points on megascale running in the multipower, but avoid the headaches of high combat velocity.

 

----------------

 

Trigger condition is set when trigger is created (+1/2) is used instead of the (+1/4) version because you are setting your trigger to whatever action you happen to be taking.  For example, if you are going for move -> strike -> move, then you set your trigger to 'when I attack that guy' if you want to dodge and move, you set your trigger to 'when I dodge'.  This prevents you from being frozen because you can't snap your fingers or something silly like that. It also helps reinforce the idea that this is just an aspect your 'normal movement' rather than some sort of movement landmine.

[Sean Waters]

OK.  Objections.

 

1. You can't have 'trigger only lasts a phase' as the thing is a zero phase activation you have to use that phase, so no actual disadvantage.

 

2. You can take as many zero phase actions as you like, so you actually only need to buy back 1m of movement and you can move as far as you like.

 

3. It is purest munchkinism to buy back your base move modes and put it in a multipower, even if you did not add trigger.

 

4. What is the trigger?

 

5. My objection was not 'you can not do this with the system', it was 'This is why we have GMs': it is something you CAN do with Hero, it is not something you SHOULD do.  It is one of those system hacks that would be so useful that, if it were allowed, everyone would have it, and it is clearly circumventing the rules on movement.

 

6. Why do you want movement to be a zero phase action?  What advantage do you think that gives you?

 

7. If you can get your own GM drunk enough, go for it.

 

OK, so, in summary, a couple of technical problems, a couple of clarification requests and a big old GM Fiat (must be the 500/I thought Chrysler owned Fiat now/...)

[TheDarkness]

FWIW, we tried doing this, basically pro-rating Movement by Turn so that everyone moved by Segment instead of by Phase. For example, if you had 24m of Running per Turn, you moved 2m each Segment. But you only attacked/did other actions on your Phases. Seemed really cool on paper.

 

...Lasted one combat, and we couldn't drop it fast enough. YMMV, so good luck. But we thought it was a total nightmare.

I'm curious what the problem was. Some of the gamers I play with are far easier to convince to play games like Mordheim, Warhammer, etc., so everyone moving every turn is something I'm fairly used to.

 

The one catch I can see is in maneuvers that require speed, but I think a lot of the problem is in the distinction between combat and non-combat speed. That distinction seems problematic to me as well. I'm pretty sure most people running through a war zone are not running at half speed, especially people driving a car, and if it's simulating loss of speed to turning, there's already a mechanic for that.

 

That said, it's quite possible I'm missing details in why it might be problematic.

[Crusher Bob]

OK.  Objections.

 

1. You can't have 'trigger only lasts a phase' as the thing is a zero phase activation you have to use that phase, so no actual disadvantage.

 

2. You can take as many zero phase actions as you like, so you actually only need to buy back 1m of movement and you can move as far as you like.

 

3. It is purest munchkinism to buy back your base move modes and put it in a multipower, even if you did not add trigger.

 

4. What is the trigger?

 

5. My objection was not 'you can not do this with the system', it was 'This is why we have GMs': it is something you CAN do with Hero, it is not something you SHOULD do.  It is one of those system hacks that would be so useful that, if it were allowed, everyone would have it, and it is clearly circumventing the rules on movement.

 

6. Why do you want movement to be a zero phase action?  What advantage do you think that gives you?

 

7. If you can get your own GM drunk enough, go for it.

 

OK, so, in summary, a couple of technical problems, a couple of clarification requests and a big old GM Fiat (must be the 500/I thought Chrysler owned Fiat now/...)

 

1. No, triggers, once set last 'a long time' so with a triggered power without the limitation, I could set the trigger and then fire it off next week.  The point of the (-1/4) limitation is to make it so you have to set the trigger and use the power in the same segment.  This is to prevent, for example, setting triggers for every single one of your forms of movement (since setting a trigger on a power that is in a multipower and having that trigger persist even when you swap your slot in the multipower out is explicitly allowed.  Of course, doing that sort of thing would be pretty cheesy, but it's generally better to explicitly shut down something you don't want like that with the rules.

 

2. That's another thing that's usually not addressed by the trigger power, but it's another thing that is frowned upon, just like 1m movement with megascale, and a 1m AP teleport with the trigger 'when I get entangled'.

 

3. And that's part of why I was exploring the idea of all movement as a multipower.  If your everyman movement was a sort of 12 point multipower, you wouldn't be able to get points back by doing this, but could probably still sell your base movement back in 'safer' ways.

 

4. what do you mean?  With the (+1/2) advantage, I can set the trigger to be whatever I want it to be.  So I set the trigger to be whatever my next action is.  If, for example, I'm going to attack someone as my next action, and want to move after I attack, I set the trigger to be 'when I attack that guy'.  If I want to move along with my dodge, I set my trigger to be 'when I dodge'.  That's the whole point of the (+1/2) advantage on the trigger.  So I can do stuff like that, or define complex triggers like: (the mine goes of if you trip the tripwire, try to move or disarm the mine, I set of the detonator, or if you ...)

 

5 + 6. already covered is several of my previous posts.  To make a workable 'low velocity' alternative to speedsters so there is a 'strike based' power construct that acts something like a high velocity speedster with a moveby.  A 40m base movement speedster can start 20m away from you, do a 40m moveby, and end 20m away from you.  A low velocty trigger movement speedster with 24 + 12 movement can start 12m away from you, hit you, then trigger move 12m away.  This also gets speedsters several tricks they can already do via triggered movement, but as a single power construct.  For example, aborting to move in front of someone to block an attack is something we can 'expect' speedsters to be able to do.  And a speedster could buy a triggered movement power that they just leaving 'on' where the trigger is 'whenever I block' that would let them do this.  But I'd prefer a much more general utility speedster movement package, and a general triggered movement power construct seems to give that.

 

And you still haven't answered the question of what you specifically object to (other than selling off base movement).  What abilities does this power construct give the speedster that you don't like? (move -> strike -> move (and the related cases (range games, corner peek shoot, etc)?, abort -> dodge + move?, abort -> block + move?, maybe move + recovery?

 

The thing is that versions of all of the abilities are available already: move by, flying dodge, range penalty skill levels, stand alone triggered movement, etc

 

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For example, when I point out that 'weak' entangles used in certain ways can be terribly cheesy here I give the sample power construct, explain ways in which that power construct can be exploited, and suggest a way to sidestep the whole issue.  But I haven't seen any such specific objections to the 'general triggered movement' power construct.