Wardsman Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 A trope created by Tolkien but not limited to him. I'm talking about fantasy races of Men like the Númenóreans. What do you give such legendary humans? I'm toying with longevity and maybe natural arcane or ego defense. Any other ideas? Related question in a setting with characteristic maximum set 15 except one primary, what would having 20 as max in all primaries be worth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 Are you attempting to convert them from MERP? If not, what is your context? I am going to assume 6e to answer your second question. If you put the "free" 20 in Dex, it would cost 60 points to go from 15 to 20 in STR, CON, INT, EGO, PRE, and BODY. If you are just giving them the option to do so, it would cost half that, 30 points (buying off the maxima penalty, essentially). - E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsman Posted June 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 Are you attempting to convert them from MERP? If not, what is your context? I am going to assume 6e to answer your second question. If you put the "free" 20 in Dex, it would cost 60 points to go from 15 to 20 in STR, CON, INT, EGO, PRE, and BODY. If you are just giving them the option to do so, it would cost half that, 30 points (buying off the maxima penalty, essentially). - E No just a general legendary race of Man. They could be Atlantean, Lemurian what have you. As to the second part assume most people start 15 as their max primaries(5th ed) except one stat of their choice can go to 20 without hitting the double cost. But someone wanting to play an Atlantean, Lemurian, whatever High man/ Elder race of Human wanted to 20 as his Maximum in all primaries. How would you by that? Perk in package deal? And how much is that worth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 No just a general legendary race of Man. They could be Atlantean, Lemurian what have you. Too much variation for me to have recommendations. As to the second part assume most people start 15 as their max primaries(5th ed) except one stat of their choice can go to 20 without hitting the double cost. But someone wanting to play an Atlantean, Lemurian, whatever High man/ Elder race of Human wanted to 20 as his Maximum in all primaries. How would you by that? Perk in package deal? And how much is that worth? Concept is the same, just math is harder in 5th because stats have a wider variety of costs. You'd do it one of two ways, IMO. Either put the 30 points as part of the package (if anyone in that race could have it), or just have the player buy it off on their sheet for 30 points if it is just a personal thing for that player. Just need to figure the cost of all the stats you want them to be able to raise from 15 to 20, that is the cost of the "perk" or buyoff. - E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 The thing is, Numenoreans as depicted in Tolkien are just flat out higher point totals than commoners. You can expect them to have higher stats and skills and fewer disads. In order to balance things out with 'regular' folk, you'd have to come up with some sort of Numenorean-specific complication to pay for it--at least a massive scary Hunted, perhaps a Susceptibility. As for stats--we used to house rule that no more than 50% of character points could be spent on stats. Stats have always been an extremely efficient way to spend points in Hero (i.e. they are too damn cheap) and a campaign with real weapons and an emphasis on melee combat only exacerbates that problem. You may be able to do something similar by enforcing combat value limits but I've never tried those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted June 25, 2016 Report Share Posted June 25, 2016 Related question in a setting with characteristic maximum set 15 except one primary, what would having 20 as max in all primaries be worth? Characteristic maximums are a poor idea that leads to headaches, as you are already finding out. The way to avoid the headaches is to not use that bad idea. I've been over the ground before, but if you won't take my word for it, we could go over it again. Lucius Alexander What was it Marcdoc said about applying Characteristic Maxima to pixies and elves and ogres but not to elephants and rabbits and palindromedaries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsman Posted June 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2016 Characteristic maximums are a poor idea that leads to headaches, as you are already finding out. The way to avoid the headaches is to not use that bad idea. I've been over the ground before, but if you won't take my word for it, we could go over it again. Lucius Alexander What was it Marcdoc said about applying Characteristic Maxima to pixies and elves and ogres but not to elephants and rabbits and palindromedaries? I'm sorry in a non super campaign 50 ST is silly. Your rebuttal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted June 25, 2016 Report Share Posted June 25, 2016 Some suggestions for Peoples of Legend (Atlanteans, Numenoreans, Nephilim, whatever) Trace of Divine/Faerie/Alien/etc. Blood: (Total: 13 Active Cost, 9 Real Cost) Life Support (Immunity: Most disease; Longevity: 200 Years) (Real Cost: 4) <b>plus</b> Regeneration (1 BODY per Week) (Real Cost: 2) <b>plus</b> Regeneration (1 BODY per Week), Can Heal Limbs (7 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Month which Recovers every 1 Season (-3/4), Does Not Work On Some Damage (Only to recover from Impairing or Disabling short of amputation or destruction of the affected part.; -1/4) (Real Cost: 3) Stubbornly Strong of Will, Even in the Face of Death: (Total: 16 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) Resistance (+1 to roll) (Real Cost: 1) <b>plus</b> Does Not Bleed (15 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), Costs Endurance (-1/2), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 20 Minutes (-1/4) (Real Cost: 6) More Fully and Truly Themselves, in Mind, Body, and Spirit: (Total: 9 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) Power Defense (4 points) (4 Active Points); Always On (-1/2) (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> +5 Mental Defense (5 points total) (5 Active Points); Always On (-1/2), Only Works Against NON "Legendary" Opponenents (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) More Deeply Aware: (Total: 8 Active Cost, 5 Real Cost) +1 PER with all Sense Groups (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> Mental Awareness (5 Active Points); No Conscious Control (-2) (Real Cost: 2) Gifted in Leadership: (Total: 9 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) +1/+1d6 Striking Appearance (vs. all characters) (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> +2 with Deduction, Tactics, Oratory (6 Active Points); Conditional Power Only when making plans or giving orders to benefit non-Legendary people (-1/2) (Real Cost: 4) Lucius Alexander And a High Palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted June 25, 2016 Report Share Posted June 25, 2016 I'm sorry in a non super campaign 50 ST is silly. Your rebuttal. First, in general, you are right. In a non-super campaign, for most characters, 50 STR is silly. A quibble: A Dragon, Giant, or Demigod, may well have a STR of 50. I acknowledge this is a quibble, because those won't usually be player characters, and if they are, then we may have to discuss the exact meaning of "super vs non super campaign." Now, if all you are saying is that the person running the game should set and enforce reasonable limits on characteristics, you and I are in perfect agreement. I may think 15 for things like STR and DEX is kind of low for an absolute limit on a Human character in a Heroic game, but I am still not going to argue if that's where you want to set it. If you are trying to say something else, let me know. Lucius Alexander And a normal palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsman Posted June 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2016 First, in general, you are right. In a non-super campaign, for most characters, 50 STR is silly. A quibble: A Dragon, Giant, or Demigod, may well have a STR of 50. I acknowledge this is a quibble, because those won't usually be player characters, and if they are, then we may have to discuss the exact meaning of "super vs non super campaign." Now, if all you are saying is that the person running the game should set and enforce reasonable limits on characteristics, you and I are in perfect agreement. I may think 15 for things like STR and DEX is kind of low for an absolute limit on a Human character in a Heroic game, but I am still not going to argue if that's where you want to set it. If you are trying to say something else, let me know. Lucius Alexander And a normal palindromedary Well in Strength we have bench marks. 15 STR lifts 440 pounds with ease. More when pushing. A 20 is 880 pounds with ease. More with pushing. I'm thinking russian Olympic lifters here. Not saying 20's are not out there there. But I would argue they are rare in the population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsman Posted June 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2016 What was it Marcdoc said about applying Characteristic Maxima to pixies and elves and ogres but not to elephants and rabbits and palindromedaries? Don't know . But how many pc rabbits and elephants do you have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted June 25, 2016 Report Share Posted June 25, 2016 Well in Strength we have bench marks. 15 STR lifts 440 pounds with ease. More when pushing. A 20 is 880 pounds with ease. More with pushing. I'm thinking russian Olympic lifters here. Not saying 20's are not out there there. But I would argue they are rare in the population. Just a note, 15 STR does not lift 440 pounds "with ease". 15 STR let's you barely lift 440 pounds and stagger a few steps before having to set it down. It's essentially a dead lift weight, not a casual my pick up and strike out at full pace weight.Also, heroic games often use encumbrance rules of one form or another so your movement, CV, and DEX rolls will often be effected long before you get up to 440 pounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted June 25, 2016 Report Share Posted June 25, 2016 No just a general legendary race of Man. They could be Atlantean, Lemurian what have you. As to the second part assume most people start 15 as their max primaries(5th ed) except one stat of their choice can go to 20 without hitting the double cost. But someone wanting to play an Atlantean, Lemurian, whatever High man/ Elder race of Human wanted to 20 as his Maximum in all primaries. How would you by that? Perk in package deal? And how much is that worth? Basically, you buy it by buying it. If I have Merfolk who breathe water, they buy the elements of Life Support that let them breathe water. If I have Drakine or something similar with natural armor, they buy Resistant Defense. They don't have to pay more or less or differently just because other characters can't buy those abilities, or must buy them differently (say, by paying points for a magic item that permits water breathing.) And if someone wants to play a Legendary Scion of the Lost City of Ee or whatever with STR 20 and DEX 20 and CON 20, that costs 10 pts for STR and 20 fo0r DEX and 10 for CON - it costs what it costs. If someone else wants the same thing, they can play another Legendary Scion and pay the points for those characteristics. Conversely, if someone wants to play a Pixie but have STR 20 the answer is simply No. Not for 10 pts nor for 20 nor for 50, because if the world is such that a Pixie with STR 20 doesn't exist, then it doesn't exist at any price. Lucius Alexander Shockingly, in many worlds a palindromedary is not permitted at any price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 You got me thinking on the topic, and I remembered something from Andre Norton's Witch World novels. "The Old Race Break, but Do Not Bend": (Total: 20 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) +10 Mental Defense (10 points total) (10 Active Points); Only Works Against Mind Control (-1), Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever defense breached; Take 3d6 STUN each segment ; -3/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> Power Defense (10 points) (10 Active Points); Only Works Against Mental or Spiritual Transform (-1), Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever defense breached; Take 3d6 STUN each segment ; -3/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) The earliest inhabitants of Estcarp could not be turned into the Unsouled (living automatons) - on the other hand, they could be subject to geas, so I've probably built this wrong.... Lucius Alexander The palindromedary notes that they were ALL subject to the geas that kept them out of Escore, until the children of Simon Tregarth broke that geas.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 So let's get this straight. You know what happened at the end of Three Against the Witch World? You're my new god of reading stuff. On topic, the 5th Edition "Human child of Empyrean parent" package deal gives +3 STR, +1 Dex, +3 Con, +5 Int, +3 Pre, +4 Com, total cost, 22 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsman Posted June 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 Just a note, 15 STR does not lift 440 pounds "with ease". 15 STR let's you barely lift 440 pounds and stagger a few steps before having to set it down. It's essentially a dead lift weight, not a casual my pick up and strike out at full pace weight. Also, heroic games often use encumbrance rules of one form or another so your movement, CV, and DEX rolls will often be effected long before you get up to 440 pounds. How does that compare to the military lift mentioned in the AD&D books Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) How does that compare to the military lift mentioned in the AD&D books Which version? 5e D&D PHB: If you carry weight in excess of 10 times your Strength score, up to your maximum carrying capacity, you are instead heavily encumbered, which means your speed drops by 20 feet and you have disadvantage on ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws that use Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. The reference there is to pounds, so at 20 Strength you could walk at 10 ft per round with 200-300 lbs but suffer a lot of penalties. In the current D&D game I am playing it has never come up, even for the paladin who carries a great sword and 3 other weapons or the fighter who has like 6 I think. lol (I am not the GM) - E Edit: Added full strength range. Edited June 29, 2016 by eepjr24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsman Posted July 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 Which version? 5e D&D PHB: The reference there is to pounds, so at 20 Strength you could walk at 10 ft per round with 200-300 lbs but suffer a lot of penalties. In the current D&D game I am playing it has never come up, even for the paladin who carries a great sword and 3 other weapons or the fighter who has like 6 I think. lol (I am not the GM) - E Edit: Added full strength range. So I am giving a boost just using the values straight. Doesn't matter to me though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 Some lifts from the Ultimate Brick (5th edition, but I don't think it's an area where the system has changed): Bench Press: 75% Deadlift: 90% <-- note, a Hero system lift is not a dead lift, though by the description it should be higher than your dead lift, but w/e Clean and Jerk: 50% <-- not a military press, which would be a lot lower, but an overhead lift One weight lifting site lists percentages of lifts vs a baseline lift. In the case of a military press, it says you should be able to do 60% of your bench press. So, for a 15 STR: Bench Press: 440 x .75 = 330 lbs Deadlift: 440 x .9 = 396 lbs Military Press: 330 x .6 = 198 lbs So, a 15 STR is pretty strong. A 20 STR is looking at a 660 lb bench, a 792 lb dead lift and a 396 lb military press. Pretty beastly, but well within the realm of human. World records: Bench Press: 1075 lbs Deadlift: 1155 lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted June 25, 2017 Report Share Posted June 25, 2017 So let's get this straight. You know what happened at the end of Three Against the Witch World? You're my new god of reading stuff. On topic, the 5th Edition "Human child of Empyrean parent" package deal gives +3 STR, +1 Dex, +3 Con, +5 Int, +3 Pre, +4 Com, total cost, 22 points. I'm a God of Reading Stuff?? Lucius Alexander I thought I was just a God of Palindromedaries Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted June 25, 2017 Report Share Posted June 25, 2017 I'm a God of Reading Stuff?? Lucius Alexander I thought I was just a God of Palindromedaries If you can follow the plot of Andre Norton double books? Yes, you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 I thought this thread was about Snoop Dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcw43921 Posted June 27, 2017 Report Share Posted June 27, 2017 No just a general legendary race of Man. They could be Atlantean, Lemurian what have you. Kryptonians? Joking aside, the original concept for Kryptonians was that they were an older, more advanced human race, "at the absolute peak of mental and physical perfection." If you're looking for something for the source of the heroes of your campaign's "ancient legends"--Hercules, Gilgamesh, Kahless, to name but a few--then the Kryptonians, or something like them, just might work for you. Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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