What's with Doomsday?

[TaxiMan]

I have to admit that I enjoy comics, but don't follow them closely. I read Death of Superman (sucked!), and wondered...

 

WTF?

 

It seemed that Doomsday couldn't fly, he jumped around everywhere. That alone seems like a lethal weakness - why didn't any superhero blast him straight up & continue through the atmosphere all the way to the sun?

 

Is there some history I'm missing about Doomsday? I think he appeared earlier, but have no clue what was shown about him. As I read Death of Superman (sucked!), I just kept wondering ....

 

WTF?

[keithcurtis]

Doomsday was a poorly-conceived villain in an otherwise very enjoyable story arc. The problems of his non-flight were addressed in subsequent appearances. In short, he adapts VERY well to whatever defeated him the last time.

 

As for the first time around and shooting him into space, you might ask the same question about the Hulk.

 

Keith "Superfan" Curtis

[Twilight]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

Doomsday was a poorly-conceived villain in an otherwise very enjoyable story arc. The problems of his non-flight were addressed in subsequent appearances. In short, he adapts VERY well to whatever defeated him the last time.

 

As for the first time around and shooting him into space, you might ask the same question about the Hulk.

 

Keith "Superfan" Curtis

 

 

It's really not so much an issue with the Hulk as there's a very good reason why the heroes don't blast him into the sun. That being that most of them are buddies of Bruce Banner and they don't want him to die.

 

That said, that wouldn't have prevented anybody from pulling that trick on Doomsday. For that matter, why didn't Superman use his superior speed advantage to take Doomsday down? For that matter why were guys like Captain Atom, Captain Marvel and the various Green Lanterns absent when the League needed them?

[Enforcer84]

They weren't absent, Doomsday went through them like a hot knife through butter....didn't he?

 

Yeah, it was a real weak premise.

 

of course no weaker than Juggernaut breaking his wrist punching Supes in the jaw in the vs miniseries a few year back.

[ZootSoot]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

Doomsday was a poorly-conceived villain in an otherwise very enjoyable story arc.

Hey, you can't bogart that stuff, share what you're smoking. The Death of Superman was so bad I wouldn't use it as toilet paper, and it could have been good. They could have introduced Doomsday as a real character with real motivations, they could have had Superman behave rationally ("I'm sorry little boy but if I break of to rescue your sister, and there are only about fifty other superheroes around here who could probably save her, who knows how many people Doosmday will kill before I can get back to the fight").

The problems of his non-flight were addressed in subsequent appearances. In short, he adapts VERY well to whatever defeated him the last time.

 

As for the first time around and shooting him into space, you might ask the same question about the Hulk.

 

Keith "Superfan" Curtis

 

Bah, the post Death story lines have only made Dosday more ridiculous and brought further contempt upon DC's conception of how the universe works. Death is the quintessentially awful DC-type story (not that there aren't good DC type stories just as there are bad Marvel-type stories and the good and the bad of each type appear in all super hero comic publications).

[Lord Liaden]

I also found the "Death of Superman" storyline to be rather lackluster - a drawn-out unimaginative brawl with a totally one-dimensional opponent.

 

However, I do recommend the glossy-paper format miniseries, Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey which followed it (also collected as a trade paperback). Doomsday's origin was expounded, including his connection to Superman's own origin, and I actually found it quite compelling. Superman's thoughts and feelings toward the monster that killed him are explored. The final showdown is a much more intelligent, tactically sophisticated battle. And the art and dialogue are strong.

 

Superman does use his speed against Doomsday in that story, but the miniseries - as well as the original Death of Superman story arc - asserts repeatedly that Doomsday is as fast as Superman, if not faster.

 

As for knocking an opponent into space, it's something you occasionally see in stories with very powerful characters; Superman did it to Lobo once, and the Hulk took an orbital ride courtesy of Spider-Man when Spidey had the Unipower. But if that technique was used as often as was logical, wouldn't that cut down on a lot of entertaining comic-book brawls?

[Twilight]

Originally posted by Enforcer84

They weren't absent, Doomsday went through them like a hot knife through butter....didn't he?

 

Nope, as I recall he went through the weak JLI version of the League. That would be Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, and a few others. The strongest member present aside from Superman was Guy Gardener. The team used no tactics, even though Guy could've taken him down fairly easily if the story was written well.

 

There was nothing like 50 or so heroes on the scene. The story I read had Supes fighting alone once the JLI went down, resulting in his death even though he should've been able to take a yutz like Doomsday by fighting intelligently. I think they stated later that Wonder Woman was in outer space at the time, which still beggars the question of where were the Captain Atoms, Captain Marvels and Green Lanterns during this time?

 

Really if Doomsday was causing that much chaos, wouldn't they have all mugged him at once?

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by ZootSoot

Hey, you can't bogart that stuff, share what you're smoking. The Death of Superman was so bad I wouldn't use it as toilet paper, and it could have been good. They could have introduced Doomsday as a real character with real motivations, they could have had Superman behave rationally ("I'm sorry little boy but if I break of to rescue your sister, and there are only about fifty other superheroes around here who could probably save her, who knows how many people Doosmday will kill before I can get back to the fight"). /

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I liked it, it springboarded Superboy which was a thoroughly fun series, and finally, if Superman behaved rationally, he wouldn't be Superman. He just doesn't let people die.

 

Originally posted by ZootSoot

Bah, the post Death story lines have only made Dosday more ridiculous and brought further contempt upon DC's conception of how the universe works. Death is the quintessentially awful DC-type story (not that there aren't good DC type stories just as there are bad Marvel-type stories and the good and the bad of each type appear in all super hero comic publications).

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "contempt upon DC's conception of how the universe works". Do you mean Death as a revolving door policy? Do you have a dislike of the way the afterlife is treated in DC? Is it in some way fundamentally different in Marvel?

 

I've always been of the opinion that he never really died. He was so far below life that his vitals could not be detected. The whole business in the afterworld was organized by a well-established demonic Superman villain and not a true "passing over".

 

I agree that Doomsday was ill-conceved and poorly presented. The subsequent stories (attempting to steal the body, Luthor as chief mourner so he can bury his enemy and secretly come to gloat, the four Supermen, the slow and painful return after being drained almost to the point of no return, the destruction of Coast City as the site of a new Warworld, that all seemed classic and fun to me. YMMV.

 

Was it a marketing gimmick? Of course. But that is the pervading state of comics these days. Was it also a fun series of stories? That's entirely subjective, of course.

 

Keith "Don Quixote" Curtis

[Asperion]

When I read the story I though that Doomsday was meant to be an equal to Supes in all the physical abilities but not the mental. Although he did possess a serious lack of smarts he was great when it came to tatics. During combat he had determined the powers and abilities of whoever was attacking him and responded accordingly. At one point Supes figured out that he cannot fly so decided to send him to space. Halfway up Doomsday had managed to break the grip and Superman was never able to get a new gripo on him to attempt the same trick. As Twilight so nicely put things, only the JLI was able to show up to stop Doomsday and they never did possess the tactical abilities that were needed. Until Superman appeared everyone did what they wanted and actually interfered with each other more than they made contact with Doomsday. I have always wondered why the other heros of any power level did not appear until Supes had finally gone down. On that same note, where was the great and powerful U.S. military during all this. Doomsday was defenately a threat to national security.

[Twilight]

Hell, considering that he was getting close to threatening the populace of a large American city, namely Metropolis, and had already threatened the safety of numerous smaller areas, the heroes of the world should've landed on him like a tonne of bricks.

 

Of course, that wouldn't have let them off Superman in a tremendously stupid manner but to that I say GOOD! Doomsday shouldn't have been able to kill Supes anyway, really Doomsday was a cutrate version of the Hulk. Only without the appeal the Hulk possesses.

 

They only kept Doomsday around because he killed Superman, if he'd gotten his ass kicked, he'd have remained the one note character he deserved to be.

[starblaze]

For what it's worth, Doomsday did appear in a recent JLTAS episode. In that one an alternate Superman with no Code vs. Killing used his X-ray vision to lobotomize Doomsday.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by starblaze

For what it's worth, Doomsday did appear in a recent JLTAS episode. In that one an alternate Superman with no Code vs. Killing used his X-ray vision to lobotomize Doomsday.

 

Which always seemed a little dues ex machina to me. The alternate Supes was x-treme, so his X-ray vision got to bore through Doomsday? It has never shown that kind of piercing power before. Or since

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Jhamin

Which always seemed a little dues ex machina to me. The alternate Supes was x-treme, so his X-ray vision got to bore through Doomsday? It has never shown that kind of piercing power before. Or since

 

Actually, he used this exact power to neutralize Manchester Black a couple years ago in one of the Superman titles. Mongul has claimed that Superman's heat vision was powerful enough to vaporize him. Superman hardly ever uses this ability because it is a killing attack, and if ever a hero had a CvK, it's Superman.

 

I'm not apologizing. I agree that Doodmsday was a lame villain and thought that the Hunter/Prey miniseries was just as lame. I just liked the general death and rebirth storyline, and don't understand the negative feelings towards a fairly decent run of comics when there has been so much drek that never gets commented on. Conduit, anyone?

 

I wouldn't agree he's a second rate Hulk. The Hulk is a far more interesting, compelling and imaginative character. But he's not in Doomsday's power class. Doomsday's basic ability is to adapt to whatever defeats him and gain immunity to it. Kind of supernatural I felt, and not really indicated by his cobbled-together origin story. It seems to be more of a supernatural ability. Kind of like, even if you're stronger and more powerful then Juggernaut, you still can't stop him, because that's what his ability is. He can't be stopped. Well Doomsday can't be defeated, permanently. Even Superman didn't do it, since DD eventually got better (same as Supes).

 

As for the Asperion's comments, yeah, they should have devoted an issue to Doomsday wiping up the army. That was an error. I suspect they didn't show all of the other DC heroes getting defeated because it would have taken another forty issues. Besides, that almost never happens in any storyline. If it's a Superman comic, the story is about Superman. Same with Iron Man, Batman, the FF or the Avengers. If the world's superheroes ever really started to interdependantly organize, they'd run out of bad guys to fight. I see it as part of the genre.

 

Keith "Long-winded cuss, ain't I?" Curtis

[Armitage]

Originally posted by Asperion

On that same note, where was the great and powerful U.S. military during all this. Doomsday was defenately a threat to national security.

 

To quote Greg Porter in his Adventurer's Club article "Send in the Marines" (reprinted in Hero System Almanac 2):

"...the Army is a very sluggish organization. Most superheroes can make the Rapid Deployment Force look like arthritic snails. Heroes have the advantage that they are "above" rules and regulations. They do not have to follow set procedures, go through chains of command, etc., but can go straight to the scene of the action, something that can be difficult to do with a 65-ton tank."