Mental or Spiritual Transform

[JmOz]

Working on a "Invasion of the body snatcher" type of thing.  Basically a bug that transforms people into a drone type thing, granting powers but also taking over the mind in a way makes them obedient to an overmind  type of thing

 

Would this be a spiritual or mental transform (Plus the physical one for the OIHID powers)

[Ninja-Bear]

It sounds straight up Mental Transformation too me. You said Mind Control.

[Lord Liaden]

If the person taken over actually becomes a new being, with a new soul/lifeforce/whatever inhabiting the host body -- like the Goa'uld from Stargate, or the CU's Slug transforming humans into Elder Worms -- Spiritual Transform might be appropriate. If the victim is only being compelled to obey by this "overmind," Mental Transform seems sufficient.

[JmOz]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

If the person taken over actually becomes a new being, with a new soul/lifeforce/whatever inhabiting the host body -- like the Goa'uld from Stargate, or the CU's Slug transforming humans into Elder Worms -- Spiritual Transform might be appropriate. If the victim is only being compelled to obey by this "overmind," Mental Transform seems sufficient.

Why did you have the mention Stargate...That complicates my thinking...I want them to be 100 percent loyal/love the queen  almost a drug addiction kind of need to the overmind (The queen is the root of the overmind).  In a lot of ways they stay the same person, except they put the goals of the queen completely above their own desires...

[Lord Liaden]

Then yes, Mental Transform to give them that Psychological Complication.

[Ninja-Bear]

Is it just me, that since Spiritual Transform was added, Transform got more confusing?

[JmOz]

agreed

[Ninja-Bear]

@JmOzwhen I updated my Black Cat’s Curse -Transform to Unluck- I had a similar issue of trying to sort out the best version of Transform.

[Duke Bushido]

I'm with LL-- 

 

I believe it's as simple as adding a Disadplication: Pod Person.

 

As to the "type" of transform-- that's harder, because it's going to depend on what you feel makes a Pod Person different (forgive the use of Pod Person; in this case, it's a convenient shorthand) different from a normal person: are they physically different?  Mentally different?  Spiritually different?   Is it all three?  That's the answer.   

 

Ninja-Bear:

 

What did you finally go with?

 

 

[massey]

I don't believe in Spiritual Transform.  That's just special effects.  There are no game rules for spirits (except for 4th edition in Hero Almanac 2, I believe), so there's nothing to Transform.

[Duke Bushido]

41 minutes ago, massey said:

 There are no game rules for spirits (except for 4th edition in Hero Almanac 2, I believe),

 

Horror HERO as well, also 4e.

 

Outside of that, though, you are completely correct.

 

[DShomshak]

Indeed. Given that there is no game trait to represent "spiritual" qualities, I find Spiritual Transforms dubious.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

I usually require Spiritual Transform to change something inanimate into something that's "alive" in the scientific and philosophical senses, rather that simply mobile according to its creator's will. And as I indicated above, I also consider it appropriate when a person is made into someone completely different, with a radically altered personality and world-view. Think of the angel Castiel in his mortal "vessel" from the series Supernatural; or the eponymous vampire of Angel with and without a soul.

 

I also instituted Spiritual Transform as the mechanism by which to alter a person's history and relationship to the world and humanity as a whole, as a curse or wish-fulfillment. E.g. elevate or negate their social status, make them famous or infamous or forgotten, change or undo incidents from their past, and the like. I like to think of it as "editing their karmic path," which seems sufficiently "spiritual" to me.

[Duke Bushido]

Ah yes; of course:

 

Sort of the difference between a golem and Adam; that sort of thing?

 

Makes perfect sense, actually.

 

Ive never run afoul of the issue as "create living thing" has never actually come up in any of my games, but I can see the validity of your usage.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Seems mental to me.  One of the upgrades in Champions Complete over 6th edition was the elimination of the three categories.  I get the concept behind them but it seems more like a limitation than an advantage.

[Lord Liaden]

There were a few things like that that Derek Hiemforth eliminated from Champs Complete, like Classes of Minds for Mental Powers. He seems to have favored a more streamlined approach, whereas Steve Long clearly preferred more granularity.

 

Ultimately it comes down to individual preference. For my part there are a few things eliminated in Complete, and 6E, that I wish were kept from earlier editions; and other things kept that I'd rather were removed. One nice thing about owning multiple editions of Hero System is that they're so cross-compatible, especially since 4E, that I usually can easily insert something I like from one edition into games using another.

[JmOz]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Seems mental to me.  One of the upgrades in Champions Complete over 6th edition was the elimination of the three categories.  I get the concept behind them but it seems more like a limitation than an advantage.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

There were a few things like that that Derek Hiemforth eliminated from Champs Complete, like Classes of Minds for Mental Powers. He seems to have favored a more streamlined approach, whereas Steve Long clearly preferred more granularity.

 

Ultimately it comes down to individual preference. For my part there are a few things eliminated in Complete, and 6E, that I wish were kept from earlier editions; and other things kept that I'd rather were removed. One nice thing about owning multiple editions of Hero System is that they're so cross-compatible, especially since 4E, that I usually can easily insert something I like from one edition into games using another.

 

My copy of Champions Complete has all three versions in them.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

The book offers them as options but does not require you to buy a separate transform for all three to do a total transform of someone.

 

Clearly, transforming someone's mind instead of all of their being with a "total" transform ought to be a limitation, not a required extra cost.

[JmOz]

26 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The book offers them as options but does not require you to buy a separate transform for all three to do a total transform of someone.

 

Clearly, transforming someone's mind instead of all of their being with a "total" transform ought to be a limitation, not a required extra cost.

Me and you must be reading from different books...

 

Quote

For purposes of Transform, all living targets possess three
traits: Body, Mind, and Spirit. Body is the target’s physical
body or substance. Mind is the target’s sentience, intellect, selfawareness,
and the knowledge he possesses. Spirit is the target’s
soul, spiritual qualities, and personality. (Unliving, inanimate
objects possess only the Body trait.)

 

A single Transform can only affect one of these three traits,
so affecting more than one requires multiple Transform powers
(either Linked or used in succession). Most Transforms work
solely against Body (and any instance of Transform not specified
as a Mental Transform or a Spirit Transform should be assumed
to be a Body Transform).

 

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 I get the concept behind them but it seems more like a limitation than an advantage.

 

 

Agreed.  Frankly, I have felt like that since the "class of minds" for mental powers.  If you only want to be able to control electronic sentience, then take that as a Limitation; same with animal / plant / alien whatever else there might have been.  Sentience is sentience, much the same way as a poke in the nose is a poke in the nose.  Affecting only a limited selection of noses?  Limitation.

 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Ultimately it comes down to individual preference. For my part there are a few things eliminated in Complete, and 6E, that I wish were kept from earlier editions; and other things kept that I'd rather were removed.

 

 

 

Wonderful!  I'm in excellent company, then. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

One nice thing about owning multiple editions of Hero System is that they're so cross-compatible, especially since 4E, that I usually can easily insert something I like from one edition into games using another.

 

 

Honestly, I don't think _any_ of us old-timers are playing "pure" _any_ edition.  I have said repeatedly that I play "2e," but really it's _mostly_ 2e, with a few things pulled backwards, and a few re-costings to newer editions.  I suspect all of us who have experience with older versions do some version of the same thing:  "But I _liked_ doing it via Method X," etc, etc.

 

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

"Class of minds" doesn't work great as a limitation, as it applies to too much.  I've got an in-progress build going;  the major power is high-STR TK, the secondary is Mind Link...any willing mind, x16 minds at once.  Give me a limitation and you're cutting the cost of ALL of that back, when it's not all that warranted...at least on Mind Link.  Mind Control on the Machine class of mind?  In a modern campaign, that's scary.

 

Plus, the intent's to distinguish between the decker, the mentalist, or the animal speaker.  Generally they're wildly separate, so the notion of a completely unlimited, works on anything mental power isn't sensible.  So what would the base cost be, of doing this?  And, it's a power with a TON of adders that commonly get used, so that's why trying to do this as a limitation is mechanically unwise.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Interesting it does indeed state that you have to buy each of the three categories in Champions Complete, I was led to believe that Derek Heimforth had wisely jettisoned that particular section.

 

Quote

"Class of minds" doesn't work great as a limitation, as it applies to too much.  

 

To the extent this is true, that would cause it to be a smaller limitation.  Because expecting someone who bought total transformation to pay 3 times as much to get a, you know, total transformation is ridiculous.

 

Quote

Mind Control on the Machine class of mind?  In a modern campaign, that's scary.

 

but that's not the same as body/soul/mind disivion.  That's "class of minds" which I believe was wisely dumped in Champions Complete as well.

 

In any case, Machines have only body to begin with, so its not actually a limitation to say it doesn't affect their soul or mind.  They have none, so its no limitation at all.

[Duke Bushido]

What Christopher said.

 

In a modern game, a "machine class of mind" isn't a computer: that's a processor, but not necessarily a sentient mind.  Certainly you are free to declare otherwise in your games, of course.  In my games, to be vulnerable to a "mind control," it has be defined as a mind to begin with: advanced AIs qualify; Googlebot does not.  Neither do servers or the Body Control Module on a Buick Riviera.  As always, varying mileage, what works for some, etc.   

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

IIRC in 5E and 6E Steve Long specified that "characters" without EGO, like standard computers, which took a Complication such as, "Affected By Cyberkinesis," would use INT instead of EGO against which Mental Powers with that SFX would work. Same with "undead" which are "Affected By Necromancy."

[Duke Bushido]

Remember when Necromancy was 15pts /d6?

 

Transform: corpse to zombie

 

Resurrection was, too:

 

Transform: Corpse to living person

 

15 pts / die to kill them.  15 / die to unkill them.

 

not my favorite thing (but honestly, if I didn't want unkilling in a particular campaign (and I usually don't), then it was a ground rule before going in.

 

Not my favorite, but there was a certain sensibility in it. Certainly enough to point out that hammering something in doesn't mean it was ever necessary.