Interrupting zero phase actions

[eepjr24]

How do you handle interrupting zero phase actions in your game?

 

Activating a non-attack power is a zero phase action. If said power has Gestures or Incantations (both of which stop the power from activating if the user takes damage or is affected by an attack or MCV roll), there would seem to be a window of time to interrupt them. Do you limit this to someone who acts on the same Dex or who has a held phase and can act on that dex? Or is there some other method that you use?

 

I also posted this in the rules forum, but I am curious how others handle it today.

 

- E

[Duke Bushido]

I've always played that anyone with an available action-- and access to do so-- has a chance to interrupt something.  Honestly, I've allowed characters to Abort to pin the arm of a wizard beginning to make his summoning gestures.

 

I leave it more up to the dramatic appropriateness than anything else, but again-- they have to have both the access to do it (be close enough, see what's going on, etc) and n available action while it's going on.

[eepjr24]

1 minute ago, Duke Bushido said:

I've always played that anyone with an available action-- and access to do so-- has a chance to interrupt something.  Honestly, I've allowed characters to Abort to pin the arm of a wizard beginning to make his summoning gestures.

 

I leave it more up to the dramatic appropriateness than anything else, but again-- they have to have both the access to do it (be close enough, see what's going on, etc) and n available action while it's going on.

And NPC's can and do try to interrupt PC's this way as well? I am specifically talking about zero phase actions here, not attacks. 

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

From experience with collectable card games such as Magic: The Gathering, timing and interrupts can get ugly.  My advice is this:  If it really gets messy with people trying to do actions all at once in response to each other, then apply DEX ranks, and then where there are ties, last in is first out: you create a stack of actions in reverse order they were declared and resolve them in sequence.

[massey]

Generally, I don't unless they've got a held action or you've already used the "cover" maneuver.  This isn't Magic: The Gathering.  There are no interrupts, particularly of a zero phase action.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

And NPC's can and do try to interrupt PC's this way as well? I am specifically talking about zero phase actions here, not attacks. 

 

- E

 

Yes, and yes.

 

However, I don't generally let NPCs notice in time (unless, of course, the needs of the scene demand at least an attempt) for two reasons:

 

1) they are not the focus of the story, and their actions should not reduce the value of the player characters

 

2) generally, they have SPD 1-3, centering on 2.25 (yes; I just checked my most recent batch of NPCs and did the math).  They rarely have an action available anyway.  Even in combats, most of them have already either declared dodging or blocking, or aborted to something self-serving.

 

 

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

No if they are Zero phase, they go off regardless. However gestures and incantations mean they cannot be invoked if gagged or restrained already. 

[archer]

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

No if they are Zero phase, they go off regardless. However gestures and incantations mean they cannot be invoked if gagged or restrained already. 

 

That's how I'd handle it. If it is supposed to be done in zero phases, it can't be lengthy, intricate gestures or some oration.

 

By the time you realize that they might be trying something, it's already over.

 

If they already had the target covered, I might let them try to stop the zero phase action if it makes sense (I wouldn't let an archer's bow and arrow stop gestures or an incantation but I might let someone with a staff or sword give it a try, particularly if they know they're dealing with a magician and are aware he might try something like that).

 

But seriously, think about trying to prevent someone from saying the word "stop" if you don't know they're going to try to say it.

 

I'm not particularly fast. But holding a rubber golf club grip and knowing exactly when I'm going to start saying the word, I can't whack myself in the leg before I've finished saying "stop".

 

(Okay, so I keep a rubber golf club grip next to my computer so I can use it as a magic wand. My wife wants me to keep my actual magic wand on display next to hers in the bedroom. Don't try to tell me that you don't keep odd things next to your computer.)

[Duke Bushido]

47 minutes ago, archer said:

Don't try to tell me that you don't keep odd things next to your computer.)

 

Hmm....

 

A handful of six sided dice, several pairs of glasses, notes, two tape measures, a pack of gel insoles for workboots, an old hardrive, a nearly-twenty-years-old iPod that sees periodic use as a hard drive, a stapler, a drone I never learned to fly but did manage to feed to a lawnmower, a couple of hole saws, an old Sony Mavica, the camera the kids shoot the youtube videos with (and Karen thinks a phone mount will somehow help with that.  Go figure.  I _upload_ through a phone; we shoot with an old camera.  A Sony Mavica, actually.  Ha! ) and about nine USB hubs of assorted quality levels, running the gamut from "questionable" to "highly dubious."  (yeah: it's a Mac, so even when all the usb ports worked, there were two.  Idiots.)  Oops-- make that three hole saws.  Well, two complete and one cup.  a fingerprinting ink pad from a bank, and about forty USB dries.   Four sets of keys that I no longer remember what they go to but can't quite throw away, two old ink cartridges, a stack of photo paper that doesn't work in my printer, and a ziploc bag with instructions to something I remember as well as I remember the doors for these damned keys.

 

 

Any of that count?

 

 

[archer]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Any of that count?

 

 

 

Hmmm...every other side of the dice are odd....

[LoneWolf]

Holding a phase is always a good tactic.  Having the higher DEX does not mean you get to go first, it means you get to choose when you go.  The mage casting a spell is a perfect use for a held phase.  

 

Just because a power takes a zero phase action to activate does not mean it takes no time.   What it means is that activating the power does not prevent you from doing something else.   Both gestures  and incantations specify that they are obviously out of the ordinary.  That would seem to indicate a certain degree of complexity to them.  A gesture is more than a wink, and an incantation is more than a single short sound.  
 

[eepjr24]

52 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

Holding a phase is always a good tactic.  Having the higher DEX does not mean you get to go first, it means you get to choose when you go.  The mage casting a spell is a perfect use for a held phase.  

 

Just because a power takes a zero phase action to activate does not mean it takes no time.   What it means is that activating the power does not prevent you from doing something else.   Both gestures  and incantations specify that they are obviously out of the ordinary.  That would seem to indicate a certain degree of complexity to them.  A gesture is more than a wink, and an incantation is more than a single short sound.  

I got all that. What I was looking for was the mechanic that people use to simulate it in game. Simon chimed in (rules forum) that you would need a held phase (or covering) and a Dex off. 

 

I am leaning toward the following:

 

Fast Draw counts as DEX for these purposes. Spells eligible for interruption include those with Concentration, Gestures and Incantations. Extra Time limitations also modify these rules as below. Note that these rules do not modify the DCV penalties from Concentration or alter the fast that those modifications last until the characters DEX on their next phase.

 

Covering (all types of actions):

If you are covered, the covering character has the option to attack, possibly interrupting the spell.

 

Zero Phase actions:

If one character has held an action that specifies "waiting for someone to cast a spell" will win automatically if they want to try to interrupt a caster with an attack, etc.

If one character has held an action that specifics "waiting for X DEX" and someone attempts to cast a spell on that DEX, the held action wins again.

If one character has held an action generally or just "waiting to see what happens", they can DEX off with the other character.

If two characters act on the same DEX (no held action) and one wants to interrupt the other, DEX off.

 

Half Phase / Full Phase actions (from attack or Extra Time):

Anyone who acts after this type of action has been declared but before half the dex of the casting character has the option to attempt a DEX off with the casting character to interrupt the spell by declaring so when the spell is cast.

 

More than 1 Phase:

Anyone who acts on any segment where the spell is still being cast has the option to attempt to interrupt the caster.

 

If a character wishes to do so, they may declare optional Zero or Half Phase (NOT attack) actions if they are interrupted ("If my armor spell is interrupted I try to also cast my mirror image spell"), those are also eligible to be interrupted per the above assuming they have a limitation that allows for interruption. Note that an interrupted spell still costs END and uses up time so anything longer than a half phase activation time would prevent additional actions.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

 

Quote

Fast Draw counts as DEX for these purposes

 

I would give Fast Draw some kind of bonus, because its a special skill and ability the character spent points for.  Everyone has a DEX roll.  Fast Draw represents someone that has extra skill in taking an action before others can react.  I recommend looking at the Showdown section in Western Hero (which will be updated and in the new edition when it comes out) which covers two people trying to act before each other at the same time.

[eepjr24]

37 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I would give Fast Draw some kind of bonus, because its a special skill and ability the character spent points for.  Everyone has a DEX roll.  Fast Draw represents someone that has extra skill in taking an action before others can react.  I recommend looking at the Showdown section in Western Hero (which will be updated and in the new edition when it comes out) which covers two people trying to act before each other at the same time.

Ah, thank you and good catch, I meant to say "Lightning Reflexes counts as DEX". Fast Draw will either act as a complimentary roll to DEX or DEX can act as a complementary roll to Fast Draw at the users option. So characters with lower DEX scores can use Fast Draw in place of DEX and make a DEX roll as a complimentary roll. That will also give casters a reason to have Fast Draw if they are in that situation frequently.

 

- Ernie

[LoneWolf]

Keep in mind that incantations and gestures are usually a ¼ limitation.   If you are giving more way to interrupt the spell you should also increase the value of those limitations.   

 

With the cover maneuver you have already rolled to hit so this should be automatic. Just roll the damage and if any gets through the spell is ruined. 

 

FAST draw simply allows you to draw a weapon as a 0 phase action. If the character does not have a held phase it does nothing.  I could see requiring a fast draw roll if the character wants to attack and does not have a weapon ready.

 

Your half phase/full phase option should definitely increase the value of the limitation.  A zero phase action does not necessarily take less time than a full phase action.  The difference is how much of your concentration it takes up. 

 

The option to cast another spell is a mistake.  Since you can already activate a spell more than once you could simply cast the original spell.  In that case the limitation is not limiting you and should not be worth any points.  Keep in mind that unless there are other limitations on the spell you can activate multiple spells at the same time.  The descriptions of the limitations are quite specific that you can activate multiple powers with incantation or gestures at the same time.  Also keep in mind that a zero phase action still has to be initiated on your turn.  Once you start the action you cannot for the most part do anything else until it is completed.   Even for actions that allow you to do other things that has to be done on your next turn.  
 

[eepjr24]

I rewrote my response here (before hitting submit even, maybe the New Year is making me more mellow) as I was initially a bit harsh as I perceived your post as rather unproductive. I have answered what I see as your concerns below, please clarify if there was a message I am not getting here.

 

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Keep in mind that incantations and gestures are usually a ¼ limitation.   If you are giving more way to interrupt the spell you should also increase the value of those limitations.   

I have changed nothing about the limitations, all I did was clarify when things happen regarding held phases. 6e, 19 leaves this almost entirely up to the GM, although it does suggest several different options (DEX off, Fast Draw, held actions, INT, PRE). It also notes that if you are simply wanting to perform a defensive action you can abort to that and always "win" the first action. And note that even if the character attempting to interrupt loses the DEX off he still has already declared his action for the phase and ends his phase after the attack.

 

6e1, 381 (similar wording appears in Incantations and Concentration).

Quote

Gestures must be clearly visible at a distance and cannot be useful for any purpose other than activating that specific power (Gestures cannot include attacking with a weapon, for  example). If the character takes damage from or is adversely affected by any power that requires an Attack Roll or MCV Attack Roll while he’s Gesturing, the power doesn’t activate or immediately turns off.

 

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

With the cover maneuver you have already rolled to hit so this should be automatic. Just roll the damage and if any gets through the spell is ruined. 

5 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

Covering (all types of actions):

If you are covered, the covering character has the option to attack, possibly interrupting the spell.

 

No further comment.

 

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

FAST draw simply allows you to draw a weapon as a 0 phase action. If the character does not have a held phase it does nothing.  I could see requiring a fast draw roll if the character wants to attack and does not have a weapon ready.

Fast Draw represents the ability to ready and use a weapon (or, at the GM’s discretion, any sort of attack) quickly. While I could have invented a whole new skill to manage this very narrow case of events (someone with a held action versus someone acting on regular DEX) I decided to add a little functionality to Fast Draw. I am not the first or last to do so, as you can see from the posts above re: Western Hero. This is indeed a house ruling, I'll note it as such in my campaign notes.

 

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Your half phase/full phase option should definitely increase the value of the limitation.  A zero phase action does not necessarily take less time than a full phase action.  The difference is how much of your concentration it takes up. 

As zero phase actions I can become desolidified, summon Satan,  or stretch my arm entirely around the earth to wave at someone in front of me. These take less concentration than a half phase action? In any case, I found no reference in the rules to how much "concentration" it takes defining the type of action. I get your opinion that Gestures or Incantations should be worth more, if it turns out this option is too powerful or disruptive I'll just change it to be the same as zero phase.

 

3 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The option to cast another spell is a mistake.  Since you can already activate a spell more than once you could simply cast the original spell.  In that case the limitation is not limiting you and should not be worth any points.  

You cannot activate the same power more than once in a phase. 6e1, 18: "Some Zero Phase Actions (such as turning on a specific Power) can only be performed once in a Phase."

 

3 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Keep in mind that unless there are other limitations on the spell you can activate multiple spells at the same time.  The descriptions of the limitations are quite specific that you can activate multiple powers with incantation or gestures at the same time.  Also keep in mind that a zero phase action still has to be initiated on your turn.  Once you start the action you cannot for the most part do anything else until it is completed.   Even for actions that allow you to do other things that has to be done on your next turn.  

I am not really sure what you are driving at here. I know you can activate multiple powers in the same phase as zero phase actions. I was simply clarifying that taking damage during your phase only affects the power being activated at that time and giving players the option to have a backup ready, since they cannot simply recast the same spell (see above). I did not understand your point on the last 3 sentences, they seem to contradict the first 2 sentences.

 

- E