Forcewall and NND

[Tech]

Got a question about these a Forcewall and NND (or its equivalent in 6th). If a hero has a Forcewall up and a villain shoots a NND attack (Def: Power Def) at the hero, does the Forcewall protect and stop the NND or does the NND ignore the protective Forcewall and continue on to hit the hero? It's been awhile.

[Tom Cowan]

Does the Forcewall have Power Def?

[Tech]

No, it does not have Power Def.

[IndianaJoe3]

In 6e, a Barrier is treated as a wall. Any attack going through one must overcome the wall's DEF and BODY to penetrate it. NNDs do no BODY (unless bought with the appropriate advantage), so they cannot penetrate.

 

I remember Force Walls acting the same way, but it's been so long since I've played 5e that I'm not 100% sure.

[Derek Hiemforth]

6E1, p326:  AVAD attacks do not ignore Barriers or other obstacles (such as walls). Obstacles block AVADs like they would any other attack, unless the AVAD has an appropriate form of Indirect.

[LoneWolf]

The answer to this question is going to depend on the edition you are using.  6th edition replaced forcewall with barrier and it does not work the same way.

 

In 5th edition a forcewall that does not provide exotic defenses is considered to be transparent to the attacks it does not have defenses against.  So, if your forcewall does not provide power defense the attack ignores it.  If it does provide power defense it has the defense to the NND, so the NND does not work. 

 

Barriers do not work like force walls.  For one thing they have body and are an instant power.  That means barriers create a real physical wall that stays around until destroyed.  A barrier specifically states that it blocks all attacks from either side that do not create a hole in the barrier.  It also specifies if a barrier is hit with an attack, it does not have defenses against it does not automatically collapse. When a barrier is hit with an attack it does not have defense against the damage is applied directly to the body. Normally a NND (AVLD in 6th edition) does not do body and cannot damage the wall. So, unless the AVLD is bought with the advantage does body or indirect it will not penetrate a barrier.  If it is bought with the does body advantage you still have to exceed the body of the barrier to get through.    
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[Lord Liaden]

If I was playing 6E I would still keep the Force Wall as an alternative to Barrier. As LoneWolf points out, it doesn't work the same way as Barrier and would make certain designs easier than with Barrier.

[LoneWolf]

If you want barrier to function like the old forcewall did simply buy it with the -1/2 limitation Cost END to maintain and don’t by any Body.   This actually makes it a lot cheaper than the previous edition forcewall.  Under 5th edition rules a 3 PD 3 ED force wall costs 15 points.  Buying a 3 PD 3 ED barrier with 0 body and Cost END to maintain is only 8 pts.

[Lord Liaden]

How would you run the Force Wall's transparency with Barrier? (Not criticism, honest question.)

[LoneWolf]

Unless you buy the barrier with the Opaque adder it does not block flash attacks and does not prevent line of sight, so those attacks still get through.  If you purchase the opaque adder, they are blocked.  So that really only leaves power attacks.  I don’t see any reason you could not take a limitation on the barrier not vs power attacks to cover that.  Personally, I would say that would be a -0 limitation, but if power attacks are really common it might be considered a -1/4 limitation.  A barrier is also not airtight so will not stop gasses or similar attacks.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

If I was playing 6E I would still keep the Force Wall as an alternative to Barrier. As LoneWolf points out, it doesn't work the same way as Barrier and would make certain designs easier than with Barrier.

 

I'd like that too, or at least a way of using modifiers to get the same kind of effect with like, Resistant Protection.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, with enough RAW Modifiers and options defined as GM Permission, Barrier can get pretty close to Force Wall in terms of how it works. I just find that level of complexity distracting.

[Derek Hiemforth]

"....and other obstacles (such as walls)..."

 

The RAW are not talking only about the Power called Barrier.

[LoneWolf]

Look at it this way under the older editions it took a lot of advantages to get forcewall to act as barrier does now.  Forcewall in the older editions was one of the least used powers, because it was so expensive.  If you wanted something to last for any time it usually ended up being so weak that anyone could bring it down.  If you wanted a persistent force wall and had a 60pt cap on active cost, you got 4 PD 4 ED wall with a length of 6 and a height of 1.  Under 6th edition that same 60 points gets you a 10 PD 10 ED barrier with a length of 13 and a height of 4 with 12 BODY.  Since 6th edition uses a different scale, it would be the equivalent of a 7” long 2” high for comparative purpose. 

 

In all honesty I never saw very many people in the older editions using forcewall because of this reason. To build a wall that could stop anything stronger than Aunt May was expensive.

[dmjalund]

[Lord Liaden]

4 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

In all honesty I never saw very many people in the older editions using forcewall because of this reason. To build a wall that could stop anything stronger than Aunt May was expensive.

 

In my games, if we wanted to build a wall that lasted, we used Entangle. It worked that way under 4E/5E. Force Wall was for temporary protection.

[LoneWolf]

Prior to 6th edition we did the same thing.  Barrier gives you a lot more options and allows for things that were impractical or ineffective under the old rules.