Hero or M&M?

[Willpower]

Yes, didn't Steve Jackson actually help develop the Hero system. I know I read about him being linked to the system somewhere, but its been years.

[Law Dog]

Of course, tomorrow you have the opportunity to check out the new Marvel game, too. Inquest Gamer 96 has the basic game included. I'm fairly excited based on some good things I've heard.

 

Hoping it is actually good.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Willpower

Yes, didn't Steve Jackson actually help develop the Hero system.

Not to my knowledge. (I'm 97% sure he did not.) However, he did borrow a lot of concepts from Hero for GURPS, and he mentions Champions as one of GURPS' main influences in the main GURPS book. (Perhaps that mention was the source of the idea that he was "linked to" the Hero System.)

[Law Dog]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Not to my knowledge. (I'm 97% sure he did not.) However, he did borrow a lot of concepts from Hero for GURPS, and he mentions Champions as one of GURPS' main influences in the main GURPS book. (Perhaps that mention was the source of the idea that he was "linked to" the Hero System.)

 

That sounds right to me.

 

 

I still bust out in laughter whenever I see the GURPS power of Walk through Ice.

 

On a more positive note, you can even observe the Hero influence in M&M and SAS. Good solid concept hold up over time and imitation is the sincerest form of flatery.

[gorman]

Originally posted by Law Dog

Of course, tomorrow you have the opportunity to check out the new Marvel game, too. Inquest Gamer 96 has the basic game included. I'm fairly excited based on some good things I've heard.

 

Hoping it is actually good.

I live in Italy... I will have to wait for other's opinions on various boards. It won't be easy to get a copy of Inquest here...

[tesuji]

Ok from my perspective...

 

I have GMed HERo for ages, starting with Champions3 in the earlier 80s and thru 4 and into 5. its the system i have GMed more than any other, with Vampire coming in second and various iterations of DND (1st and 3rd only), traveller, and others filling the gaps.

 

Were are abandoning our current HERO5 champions game for MnM. After some playtests, MnM showed both a smoothness of flow and design and a style that was preferred over hero and this is from a gang of hero experienced players.

 

During our early playtests and such as well as in actual character generation, i heard the phrase "just like in the comics" multiple times stated aloud by various members. I never, in decades, heard that during any hero character generation.

 

Just to touch on a few points...

 

Support... There are about four Supers products on schedule for MnM in 2003. While HERo has many more products on the schedule, I am uncertain as to how many of them are "supers" as opposed to Fantasy HERO and Star HERo and Elmer Fudd HERo and so on. Frankly, I found little use in say STAR HERO for my supers games.

 

balance... like all games, balance is a thing for the GM. Can you build a PL11 character that is immune to a PL10 character... yup. In MNM you can. Then again, in HER a 300 pt character can be immune to a 350 point character. In both cases, it takes a specific type of rock-paper-scissors designing. In MnM, attacks other than "bash em with eb" are effective enough to be common and that makes immunity actually rather hard unless you are dealing with specific and narrow counter designs. )The characters i have designed and seen designed for play typically dont just have their EB and their AP Eb but also have several other types of attacks. Whether the character have secondary powers and such is a matter of taste not system. My characters have seemed to have enough points to have more than just the basics covered in MNM much better than in HERO even at 350.

 

One other thing to remember about the powers in MnM... you don't have everything as a separate power. A character with only FireBolt (EC+10: Fire) can spend HERO POINTS to also throw a FIREBALL Explosion, a Conflagration (lasting burn such as in hero terms a continuous fire), and even for short periods for things like fly and engulf himself in fiery sheath. (Oh yeah, damage shield works in MnM and you dont even have to make it a clinging NND autofire damage shield to be effective!) So sure, the HERo character probably had three or four more powers printed and pointed and squeezed into his multipower and ec frameworks... while the MnM character buys only the powers he wants all the time and can do "stunts" and the like on occasion to use his powrs for other things than the ones he did the math on.

 

MnM's drawback is that it has first edition errors in writing and such, but, i have a stinking suspicion that the erratta and FAQ will be a lot smaller than the seasoned veteran HERO5 has right now. Its also a lot simpler a system to manage.

 

But all the above are just back-n-forth quibbles... if you want supers play to be quick and dynamic, and less about accounting and more about FX... MnM is the better choice for you.

[Alien Knight]

Originally posted by gorman

I'm reading your comments. Would be very interested in learning the final outcome of Alien Knight. Unfortunately I don't have enough time to start playing with two different systems (let alone convincing players to learn two different systems instead of one).

 

Anyway, I've played GURPS for years (abandoned it in the past year, they really ought to do a new edition), don't particularly love d20 games (nor dislike them, mind). Liked a lot the "flow" of V&V combat.

 

Well getting them to learn two systems was pretty easy. Everybody wanted to try out the new kid on the block. Fortunately, everybody and their dog is at least passing familiar with d20 so the learning curve wasn't real steep.

 

I'd like to know how the experiment comes out too. Last night was game night and out of five players, I had two cancellations and a no-show. We did spend some time talking about the system though and I got a bit more of a player's perspective. One of the guys mentioned that he didn't like the canned powers aspect of M&M. (Curiously, this is the guy who's character has 10 levels of Sorcery.) I found that kind of odd as I thought the character creation rules made things a lot easier on the players. Shows what I know, eh?

 

From what I've seen of GURPS supers (admittedly not much considering the volume of GURPS stuff I own), M&M is a lot less lethal. Like HERO, it's dang hard to kill somebody accidentally. In GURPS I keep thinking, "10d6 attack vs. 15 health points. Oh my."

 

That's actually a good thought. What kind of supers game were you considering for your campaign? Street level? Four color? Golden Age? Mystery Science Theatre 3000?

[Agent Escafarc]

The only major problem with M&M I have so far is that skills cost too much. But we are playing our first game with the system next week so I may find others.

[Storn]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Based on this, I really think you'd be happier with Hero. Hero overall isn't that similar to GURPS (it's more flexible, more powerful, and more universal, IMO), but enough of the core concepts are similar that you'd find learning Hero fairly easy.

 

Derek, I'm sorry that I'm disagreeing with you twice in one thread. But c'mon, Gurps has MORE in common with Hero than not.

3d6 roll under skill

disadvantages

similar range of stats (8-18 basically)

point system for chargen

 

And I think Gurps is very, very flexible except in one place: Supers. So, yeah, a Supers game is probably going to be easier in Hero. Gurps doesn't ramp to high power levels as easily. But that is it. Gurps does pretty much every other genre you care for pretty well. Different "feel", but does it well.

 

I'm not a huge Gurps fan. But I don't think the differences are all that much. I actually love Gurps skill & magic spell structure...although it gets rampant with all the supplements.

[Storn]

tesuji, nicely written post.

 

On the skills in M&M, I just learned this myself... take a look at Talented Feat. It allows bonuses to a group of related skills. So, the thief who needs Move Silent and Hide can buy Talented Feat and get a bonus to both. That makes skills cheaper, slightly.

 

We are still using 1:1, but many on the Green Ronin boards are using 1:3 skill pts.. I think that might be overly much... but 1:2 probably wouldn't bother me much.

[gorman]

Originally posted by Alien Knight

That's actually a good thought. What kind of supers game were you considering for your campaign? Street level? Four color? Golden Age? Mystery Science Theatre 3000?

Four color, I love the Marvel Universe. I would be striving for that "look and feel".

[Alien Knight]

Aha!

 

Ok, that really matters. HERO characters tend to have a real Marvel-ly feel to them. In my experience with the system (since the 80's, I've got the blue boxed set) beginning characters tend to have the power levels and range of capabilities you find in your average mighty Marvel mag.

 

M&M doesn't capture that as well for me. Granted I've only run four games with it, but the quirky d20 mechanics (I know, I know, use 2d10 instead, sheesh) seem to make things a little too, I dunno, random. There are some things I like about M&M over HERO, but at the end of the day I think I prefer the way HERO allows you to simulate whatever your imagination can conceive over how M&M handles things.

 

Of course this is just my opinion, your mileage may vary. I intend to buy everything from both companies and mine them ruthlessly for ideas regardless. ;>

[gorman]

Re: Aha!

 

Originally posted by Alien Knight

I intend to buy everything from both companies and mine them ruthlessly for ideas regardless. ;>

Me too, which is why I wasn't afraid of putting this thread both here and on Green Ronin's boards.

 

Anyway, I'm really attracted system-wise by Hero's ability of recreating everything within the system (which is incidentally where GURPS lost me). I'm only afraid I won't be up to the task of GMing the game. I'm afraid that generating villains will take me too much time, afraid that combats will take too long. Afraid that Hero does not have the mechanics to allow one to pull power stunts (at least not as elegantly as M&M).

[Alien Knight]

Good point

 

Yeah, that's a good point. GURPS suffers pretty heavily from, "if it ain't in the book, well, too bad." M&M also suffers from that, but to a lesser degree. Yes, you can make your own powers and some people really like the system that handles it. I am not one of those people. I like to see where the numbers are coming from.

 

You're also right about characters taking a while. Might I suggest that you play a few sessions (a fight or two at least) with random pre-gens to get your players used to the system and how things work, then start the campaign? A big resource is going to be the Powers Database. That is going to be EVER so helpful to a lot of players. The ragged remnants of my group and I discussed that last night and determined it to be the best idea for a HERO book in some time (possibly ever). Kudos. Golf clap. Promotions all around.

 

Anyway, back to chargen. After a while it comes pretty naturally. Sure I need to refrence the book now and again, but I can do it freehand in about an hour, less if I'm using software. Keeping in mind that the best villans are the recurring ones, it's not as much effort as you'd think. Now doing the artwork, that's time-consuming. Not a system related thing though. Drawing a super-hero is drawing a super-hero no matter what stats you plug into him/her/it.

 

I wouldn't worry about being up to the task of GMing HERO. Other than the combat system, you're looking at GURPS (more or less). You know GURPS, so this won't be as big a leap as you might think. Sure the rulebook is HUGE, but it's mostly the toolbox for character/campaign design. Go nuts. You'll probably have a good time.

[Barton]

Hero Designer is good

 

It has been pointed out in many different posts that character design is a stumbling block for players and GM's. I have Hero Designer and have worked with it. While not a perfect program, it is GOOD. I would recommend anyone serious about Hero system purchase it.

A suggestion to DOJ: lower the price of Hero Designer! This is my opinion would increase sales of the Champions and other Hero products. Adobe Systems gives away Acrobat Reader but sells a lot of Acrobat. Just my two cents.

[schir1964]

Or purchase Metacreator (http://www.alteregosoftware.com) for a lesser price and get the Hero 5th Template for it for free. Either way you go, it makes things much easier for creating characterss.

 

Although this Template is not "Offiicial" as far a Herogames is concerned, it is compliant with all the Rules of the 5th Edition.

 

Note: You can get the Gamma release of the Hero 5th Template from me directly.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[gorman]

Re: Hero Designer is good

 

Originally posted by Barton

It has been pointed out in many different posts that character design is a stumbling block for players and GM's. I have Hero Designer and have worked with it. While not a perfect program, it is GOOD. I would recommend anyone serious about Hero system purchase it.

I have already bought it. I was just too curious to see how it would work. So I do have it. Factor that in when you give me your advice.

[mattingly]

Afraid that Hero does not have the mechanics to allow one to pull power stunts (at least not as elegantly as M&M).

 

I always figured that's what the new Power Skill was for.

[Monolith]

Re: Re: Hero Designer is good

 

Originally posted by gorman

I'm only afraid I won't be up to the task of GMing the game. I'm afraid that generating villains will take me too much time, afraid that combats will take too long.

As I have posted in other forums, it is not necessary to completely write-up a villain for the game. When designing villians all you really need are the basics:

 

Lord Dire:

Ex-DEMON Morbane who fled the organization. Lord Dire is seeking an elixir to extend his lifespan – fearing that the evil he has done will be catching up with him is his eminent death grows near. Lord Dire will mostly be involved with mystical encounters, as he seeks to expand his arsenal of mystical items.

 

STUN: 40

END: 50

PD: 25 (15r)

ED: 25 (15r)

Stun #: 51

DEX: 23

Levels: +3 Ranged

 

Mystic Might: Multipower

1) Eldrich Bolt: 12d6 EB

2) Disintegrate: 4d6 RKA

3) Bonds of Ballor: 6d6 Entangle

15†Fight OIF (mystic cloak)

15 PD 15 ED Force Field (OIF (mystic cloak)

Mystic Shields: Mental Defense 15 points

 

That is all the information you really need to play a villain in a game. Now if Lord Dire becomes a permanent addition to the game you will want to fully stat him out. But if he is a one or two shot villain, 10 minutes to make this up is all that is required.

 

I have also found that if you keep villains "loose" playing the campaign itself will help you develop them if they become something besides short-term encounters.

 

Afraid that Hero does not have the mechanics to allow one to pull power stunts (at least not as elegantly as M&M).

As far as power-stunts go, that is really nothing more than having the Power Skill, and then working out a few pre-defined power-stunts with the GM before the game begins. CKC has some nice power-stunt examples given for a couple of the villains in that book.

[schir1964]

Originally posted by mattingly

I always figured that's what the new Power Skill was for.

I was thinking the same thing, but I wanted to look up the description again before suggesting it.

 

As it turns out, the Power skill might just do the trick.

I can't be sure since I'm not sure exactly how Hero Points work.

 

Anyway, if you need to do something different with your power (rarely, not a common occurance), then Power skill is exactly what you need. And since you pay for it once, you can try to do different things over time without having to continually spend points.

 

However, it does have some restrictions to it concerning combat. See the Hero 5th: Power skill section.

 

- Christopher Mullins