Hero or M&M?

[gorman]

Hi to everybody!

 

First of all, this is not meant as flame bait. I'm genuinely interested in having people's opinions on the decision I'm about to take. I have bought all 3 major superheroes games out there (Hero, SAS and M&M) and want to decide which one to start GMing. I plan on buying pretty much all supplements for the three lines, money is not (luckily) an issue here.

I've narrowed down the choice between Hero and M&M. But I really can't decide between the two. Since I inquired on Green Ronin's forum I thought... why not here?

I already bought Hero Designer, if that could help explaining your reasoning.

Thanks to everybody for their input.

[Acroyear]

I own all 3, as well.

 

I think M&M needs a little more maturing/more releases and such before it can be fairly appraised. On its own, I find it a little lacking.

 

As set up, too... combat is not only fast, many think it's way too fast. A lot of house rules are out there to slow combat down (lots of 1 shot KOs aren't desired).

[Derek Hiemforth]

I would respond to your question with a question. Do you ever plan to run anything besides superheroes? The answer to that may help you decide.

 

If you never plan to run anything but superheroes, both M&M and Hero have a lot to recommend them. M&M is probably faster and simpler, while Hero is more detailed and has a bigger support base to draw from.

 

However, if you think you might run something other than supers somtime, and you're interested in doing that without changing rules engines, definitely go with Hero. M&M is purely a superhero game. It's core mechanic is d20 System-based, but there's enough difference between it and other d20 games that you might almost as well be changing rules systems when you switch between them.

 

Hero has a much stronger "out of the box" ability to handle multiple genres and power levels, and in fact already has genre books out for Sci-Fi and Martial Arts in addition to Supers (with Fantasy coming this summer).

 

Plus, there is no canned setting available yet for M&M (if that matters to you). The Freedom City book is now about four months behind its originally announced shipping date. For Champions, on the other hand, the Champions Universe setting book and a huge book of villains (Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks) are already on game store shelves, with the Millenium City book due out soon.

[mattingly]

(Although I'm the editor for Hero Games' magazine, these opinions are only mine.)

 

I've played both, as well, and in our group, we didn't see much of a difference in combat time. Acroyear, were you playing M+M with the Hero Points rules? That's 5 hits each combat for each character that are pretty ineffective, meaing that each character will average at least 4 hits to take down.

 

Also, we noticed that Bricks are even more effective in M+M than the are in Champions. Apart from that, it's a pretty good system.

 

Last I heard, M+M had two or three supplements planned. Anyone know what else is coming down the pike for them?

 

Anyway, to compare the two systems, Champions is more finely grained. You can get exactly the character you want, but it takes time to build him that way. Once you've got him built, though (and the Hero Designer makes that much easier), the in-game play goes pretty smooth once you're used to it. Plus, there are plenty of combat options that you can add later, if you want.

 

M+M character creation is quick 'n' easy, and once everyon'e spent their Hero Points, combats end very quickly. In many ways, it reminds me of the early editions of Champions, in which Skills were very broad. Things like "Detective" and "Acrobat" covered what are now several Hero skills.

[Celtic Cowboy]

I'd look at the players as well. If they're heavy DnD they might take to MnM a little faster. If they love stuff like GURPS than the switch to Hero is easy. I love Champions but it's like pulling teeth to get some of my group to even look at the Hero System.

 

I think you can have a good game with either once things are going and everyone spends more time thinking about the game than the mechanics.

 

Mark

[MisterVimes]

Since I run a Homebrew campaign, I lift liberally from many sources. I run HERO, but I intend to STEAL like a fiend from SAS and M&M

[Monolith]

If you are looking for a game that is going to be well-supported, then go with HERO. While Green Ronin does have an adventure, a GM's Screen, a campaign world, and an enemies book coming out this year, that is about all the support you are going to get in 2003. HERO, on the other hand, has 10 products out right now and 9 more due this year; plus at least 2-3 pdf products coming out.

 

Other than that, it just comes down to personal style of play. If you are tired of the basic d20 concept and are looking for something different, go with HERO.

[Willpower]

My experience with M&M was different than others seem to be. Everyone always talks about how quick M&M plays compared to Hero, but in all the games I ran the fights in M&M were only minimumly quicker. Certainly not enough to switch systems, thought their were some aspects of M&M I really liked, like the Hero Point aspect. These though could be retrofitted to Champions with little problem. I certainly never had a problem with one shot KO's. Particularly when a Hero Point could help.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Willpower

I certainly never had a problem with one shot KO's. Particularly when a Hero Point could help.

Following the guidelines in FREd, it is very easy to have 1-2 shot KO's in the HERO System. So at least in that regard both systems can be fairly similar.

[Cybernaut]

M&Ms? I love those, especially the blue ones...

(gets up from desk and runs to the vending machine down the hall)

[DoctorItron]

Derek said it well.

 

The Hero System lets you play non-superhero games without having to learn a new set of rules. I'm in a Stargate-genre game right now using D20 and we're constantly trying to adapt characters because the rules in different books conflict with each other. Wouldn't have that problem if we started with Hero.

[Agent Escafarc]

Originally posted by DoctorItron

Derek said it well.

 

...because the rules in different books conflict with each other.

 

How about the same book, same skill:

 

M&M Page32:

 

DEMOLITIONS (INT)

Trained Only

You know how to create, set,and disarm explosive devices .....

....(later in write up) Disarming an explosive device requires the use of the Disable Device skill....

[Storn]

I am GMing M&M now. In a co-GM'd superhero world that up to now has been Champions and the co-GM will continue to run Champions.

 

I REALLY like M&M from a GM stand point. It is child's play to keep track of damage resolution of multiple NPCs... much easier than Body, Stun, End costs for powers, Con stuns, various defenses etc. etc.

 

Having said that; I think Hero/champions is a bit more solid in the combat dept. There is a real keen depth to a good combat in hero. But we threw out the speed chart years ago...and that has simplified and bettered and sped up combat for our group significantly (1d6+SPD, if initiative is over 11 person gains a second action after all first actions, 17 or better, 2nd and 3rd actions after all other actions. 4 intitatives to a Turn (or equal to 12 phases the ol' way)). We also do not allow a free REC. You have to burn an action to take one. Which also speeds up combats.

 

But M&M does play faster (I do not use all my villain pts for all my villains, rather a grab bag that they all draw from... keeps the combats a bit quicker).

 

We will probably play both for some time. My co-GM is excellent at handling numbers of a detailed Champs combat. I'm not. So that is the reason I use MM.

[Law Dog]

Originally posted by Storn

 

But M&M does play faster (I do not use all my villain pts for all my villains, rather a grab bag that they all draw from... keeps the combats a bit quicker).

 

A wonderful adaptation from the king of karma systems, MSHRPG. Are you also allowing the heroes to keep a karma pool?

[Chaosliege]

I have never played M&M, so I dont know how much help I'll be, but if I'm hereing correctly, it's a d20 game. That in and of itself would be enough for me to not want to play it. D20 works fine for fantasy games, but every time I've tried playing a d20 based hero game, it doesn't work. Hero works great.

[Storn]

>>>M&M is purely a superhero game. It's core mechanic is d20 System-based, but there's enough difference between it and other d20 games that you might almost as well be changing rules systems when you switch between them.<<

 

I actually disagree with this statement considerably. I can take the base stats of ANY d20 character, monster etc and run in it easily with M&M. Do spells and all abilities cross over neat? No, of course not. But if I want to set my superheroes up against a dragon from Monster Manual... it is really pretty damn easy. so easy, I can run it out of the Monster Manual opened.... so there is a lot of d20 product and support out there to dip in. Do I care if the points match up perfectly?... nope. I want ease of use.

 

Want to play Sci-fi, yeah...that's pretty easy (maybe a bit bland and generic, but it would work just as well as d20 Star Wars and probably better).

 

Want to play fantasy? good lord, that is supremely easy given the product out there. There are even quick and dirty ways to use spells out of the Player's Handbook or any d20 product.

 

>>A wonderful adaptation from the king of karma systems, MSHRPG. Are you also allowing the heroes to keep a karma pool?<<<

 

I played Mshrpg a couple of times 15 years ago. I don't remember karma systems at all. If it is similar, I'm not surprised...I just do it so that the minor underlings may get a Villain point if the story needs it...but the majortiy of the Villian points are for the main Villians.... useful for simulating that comic book convention of "I planned for this contingency, my hover bike will whisk me away from those pesky heroes as the warehouse burns down around their ears!" or what have you...

 

So saying M&M cannot do these things is a bit shortsighted. Can Hero do them? Oh yes, and in a lot more detail. But not everyone is into all that detail. In some ways, Hero is more work than converting M&M to a fantasy game... because there is so many decisions to make. Now, I like making those decisions, but others want to run something out of Greyhawk... or Dark Sun or some setting. This is where Hero doesn't come up to the bar. Terran Empire will be an interesting test if Hero gamers are interested in settings besides Champions.

[Willpower]

This might be different in different parts of the book, as some have pointed out there are a few places M&M contradicts itself, but this is the way Villain points are supposed to work anyway. Villains don't get individual villain points, the GM gets 12 villain points to use during the game to split up for all the villains. Not sure how this is supposed to change later on when heroes get more hero points. I think the only villains to get individual points would be the ones that have purchased extras. I can look this up and include the page where it talks about this later, don't have my book with me, but I think it is the gamemastering section.

[tenebre]

im a hero biggot.

all other games suck!!!!!!!

except V&V :-)

 

 

hahahah

 

I woudl say Hero jsut cuz its teh best system i have ever played

[Alien Knight]

Ok, that's close

 

Ok, to start with, that's almost how villain points work. The GM starts with a pool based on the number of players who show up and their respective character levels.

Tonight I'm running the last session in M&M format for my experiment in which system works best with my group. Four out of five players have told me that they'll be in attendance and all their characters are PL 10 so I'll have [10 + (10 + 10 + 10)/2 ]/2 = 12 villain points. Not that I've really had to use these, the players are really stingy with theirs and generally finish the night with most if not all their points unspent.

 

Anyway, I'm still not sure how I feel about M&M. On the one hand, combat is pretty straightforward compared to hero. I find hero combats tend to devolve into wargames. That's not a BAD thing, I like the occasional wargame, but it doesn't feel like a comic-book combat to me. M&M character creation is bone simple. Other than the tendancy to min/max (and this is really rampant with my players, your results may vary) this has got to be the most player-friendly supers creation system since V&V. I have one player that is floored by HERO, it's just too complex for him to deal with after a day at work.

One thing I did notice about M&M is that you have to be pretty careful about making villains. A PL 11 villain can easily be untouchable by a PL 10 hero. The same works in reverse. Because of the way Protection works, pretty much every one of my PCs are immune to mooks.

 

ANYWAY, to make the point. You could just do what I'm doing. Start a campaign and switch out systems after X adventures. When you're done, see which one works best for you and your group. It's the only way to be sure.

 

Happy Gaming!

[Storn]

Alien Knight, your Min/Max comments are interesting and important.

 

Since I made up two of the characters out of 3 PCs, I wasn't worried. But this group is not min/maxed at all (if anything, a bit weak). But we are playing superspies in a superhero world. These folks have a LOT of skills and it brings down their impact considerably.

 

However, since I have them up against similar foes to themselves (other superspies), they tend to not be anywhere min/maxed at all. I have one villian who is PL 15 and would get his butt kicked in a stand up fight.

 

I do agree that Armor and Protection are powers that you really have to judge against the attack of the players.

 

As for Mooks, I make sure that they have the "gang fire" Feat of up to +5 for ATT, a corresponding -5 to DEF. Reflecting perfectly the comic book tactics of Hydra, Cobra etc. They get hit easily, but occasionally they hit with Kirbyeseque energy siiphon accelerator .

 

But I did have one fight where PL 4 mooks went down very quickly against the players. Almost too easily. But I'm learning as a GM. I remember the early days of Hero, when my 125 pt character was going up against speed 4, dex 18 .357 magnum weilding bar fighters. (I was 14 dex, 3 speed). Early GM. My character was smeared. We learned from that.

[death tribble]

Hero or M&M

 

I say Hero.

 

Because I know what I am doing with Hero.

[RDU Neil]

Being the other half of the co-GM with Storn... we are purposely playing both systems, in the same campaign world, to see what we like and dislike. Storn has made most of the points already... as we each run a game that fits to our personal style. I love HERO, and have never seen the need to use another system... but I've learned to enjoy playing other systems in order to steal occasional ideas from them.

 

Ala Hero Points... I long ago stole the Deadlands "Chip" concept and ported it to Hero in place of the old Luck rules. It has worked tremendously for our group... and in fact is MORE flexible than Hero Points in M&M. (We are currently playing M&M "by the book" in order to see what works and what doesn't, rather than start tweaking with House Rules right from the beginning, as is our tendency.)

 

M&M has many "1st Edition" flaws, like contradictory statements, and unclear concepts... but so did early Champions editions. Because of this, as Storn pointed out, it is very easy to make an unbalanced character... either over or under powered. My example is my character, who was originally built in Hero system. A cybernetic martial arts guns and knives chick called Cyber Blade. When I translated her STR over I wasn't sure what to do. I gave her 1 level of Super Strength in M&M, thinking that was close to a 30 STR in Hero. Now, in Hero 30 STR with Martial Arts can be very effective... but in M&M, I've found myself bouncing off of a couple of villains, and only by spending Hero Points to reroll, hoping for a critical, could I hope to hurt the villain. OTOH, as Storn pointed out, Cyber Blade was taking out well trained agents (not thugs) with one shot. That seemed out of character as well.

 

In the end, my only concern with M&M is that the level system, as simple as it is, doesn't have a concrete balance of threat level. As pointed out before, a PL 11 character can easily be completely immune to a PL 10 character... rather than "just a little better" which the level difference implies.

 

I've also not found M&M to be any faster in combat, because we still spend a lot of time looking up "What does that power do?" in the book... where I have had the basics of Hero memorized for years, and only now have to check a few new 5th Edition rulings to see if I like them, or want to ignore them. That changes the "speed of combat" issue quite a bit, but then I've rarely run long combats, and as a group, the players and I really try to avoid "war gaming" and strive to keep combat fast paced and dramatic.

 

Good players make any system "the best."

[Starcorp Man]

I like M&M, not nearly as much as Hero. I think M&M's biggest problem is the skill points, there's not enough in comparison to a Hero character.

 

Another aspect to the M&M/Hero debait is that M&M tend to have fewer "Minor Powers," in comparison, and a great need to have Protection like powers. Agents also tend to be a joke. For years my players respected Viper and Viper 5(6) Teams but in M&M you can't simulate it.

[gorman]

I'm reading your comments. Would be very interested in learning the final outcome of Alien Knight. Unfortunately I don't have enough time to start playing with two different systems (let alone convincing players to learn two different systems instead of one).

 

Anyway, I've played GURPS for years (abandoned it in the past year, they really ought to do a new edition), don't particularly love d20 games (nor dislike them, mind). Liked a lot the "flow" of V&V combat.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by gorman

Anyway, I've played GURPS for years (abandoned it in the past year, they really ought to do a new edition), don't particularly love d20 games (nor dislike them, mind).

Based on this, I really think you'd be happier with Hero. Hero overall isn't that similar to GURPS (it's more flexible, more powerful, and more universal, IMO), but enough of the core concepts are similar that you'd find learning Hero fairly easy.