Danger International limited boxed set?

[Arcturus]

I saw in one of the old Champions books an order form listing the then-current and upcoming releases, and it listed a Danger International limited boxed set.

Did this really exist?

If so, what were the contents?

[Chris Goodwin]

According to RPGGeek there was indeed a boxed set.  It doesn't say what the contents were though. 

[BigJackBrass]

There's no mention of a boxed set in the DI entry in Heroic Worlds (Lawrence Schick 1991), just the book.

[tiger]

I know Justice Inc. was a boxset, don't remember a DI box set though

[Christopher R Taylor]

I know that players love box sets but I'm not sure how well they sell.  I would love to see a box set put out with Champions Begins, Champions Complete, a Campaign Setting, Hero Dice, and a thumb drive with Hero Designer and Combat Manager on it.  Maybe a map, like the old Champions box set.  A QR code to Hero System Mobile.

Basically everything you need to fire off Champions right out of a box.  But count up all that stuff, even if you give a discount that's like $100 bucks worth of stuff.  Would anyone buy it?

[Arcturus]

I found some info on Wayne's Books...

 

Under the normal entry (near the bottom of the page), it mentions:
 

Quote

BOX SET: 1985 ... HERO 17B ... ISBN (same)
CONTENTS: Rulebook; mini-poster; double-sided play map; 6 dice.

 

I'm guessing the poster was a copy of the cover.

I wonder what the map was.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Had to be like some kind of street map and yeah the cover, which would be awesome

[Duke Bushido]

4 hours ago, tiger said:

I know Justice Inc. was a boxset, don't remember a DI box set though

 

 

Sorry- late to the party; I wish I had known this question was being asked.     I have been avoiding browsing the net as it is my father's birthday, so we are making a day of it.  Yes; I am sixty-two and,both of my parents are not only alive and healthy, but actively remodelong their house _again_. 

 

still, you have the answer: there was a DI boxed set: that and two of the flex tile sets are the only things (well, more than that, I suppose, as there were three sets in at least three colors, and I have but one set in one color) are the only things that have eluded my collection all these years.

 

I know it exists only because my first Champions GM owned it for a while (had it "stolen" at Dragon Con, but I suspect, knowing him, he simply lost track of it).  We never played it (which I think is why he took it to Dragon Con- looking to maybe trade it off) because we had gotten burned out on the whole Spies thing before he picked it up,  and were at that time rediscovering TFT, so...

 

We did all rifle through the box when he first got it, but let me preface this with a couple of notes:

 

The rifling-through was more about making him happy with our feigned excitement, and took all of possibly three minutes.

 

We weren't terribly interested in doing more than ooh-ing and aww-ing for Jim's benefit; not a lot of note-taking, even mentally.

 

The memory is on the order of forty years old, and until now, only the cover of the box has ever been revisted in the mind's eye (identical to the cover of the perfect-bound softcover book.  (Being totally honest, the theme and design od the cover, with our current burn-out on spies anyway, combined with the over-use of browns, was probably the single biggest thing that turned us off the fastest.  "Oh, _great_!  Seventies spies!  :eyeroll:  no; thanks.)

 

 

55 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Had to be like some kind of street map and yeah the cover, which would be awesome

 

 

The mini-poster was indeed the cover art and the title logo of the game.

 

There was a saddle stitched (staple bound) rules book- I _want_ to say there were two books, but I sont trust the memory enough to declare that as fact), and an uncovered 'booklet' that we took to be a,short adventure akin to VIPER's Nest in the 2e Champions box.

 

The map.... God help me, my brain keeps showing me the famous Roses map from Champions, but I do not think that is right.  Further, I believe one side was some,sort of warehouse or "at the docks" kind of set.

 

Again: don't accept this as being from a credible source, as what little I do remember was placed into memory against my will. 

 

There were dice: I dont remember anyone counting them, and if I am,remembering correctly, they were od one of the 'normal' small sizes, and not those odd sized sice that packed with Champions.  Those were promptly stripped out and tossed into the salad bowl of D6 that was the centerpiece Jim's gaming table. 

 

 

My question goes back to the first quote above: I know Justice, Inc was a boxed set--

 

 

Are you perhaps implying that there was a JI perfect bound?  Because that would be news to me, and I would have to begin tracking it down as well.....

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The only edition of JI that I have ever seen is the two-booklet version.  That really, really is begging for a reboot but I have too much on my plate already   I heard a rumor someone was working on it, that would be a super easy rebuild.  Almost none of it would need changing or updating, and there's not much more to add.

 

Its like Stronghold a 6th edition version would be really nice to have around so I wouldn't have to reprint a bunch of it in the adventure.

[Arcturus]

Thank you for taking the time to fill us in on the details you remember, Duke.
And congrats on the longevity of your parents! Staying active seems to be a common factor in longer living.

 

I looked through the pdf (my physical copy is en route, still) and the adventures have mini maps on the pages, but nothing that really looks worth blowing up to a full page except for the Penthouse on page 154.

[Duke Bushido]

You are quite welcome; I wish I could find confirmation from a more reliable source than a memory of pretending to be interested for a moment forty years ago, but that's all I have, I'm afraid. 

 

I suspect, however, that just like Champions 3e, everything in the boxed set (except map and poster) was faithfully included in the perfect bound version.  Unless you are just a wingnut like me for the old stuff, there is no need to hunt down the one if you have the other-- again, I am basing that assumption on the similarly packaged-both-ways-product that I _do_ own both ways: 3e Champions; I have no way of knowing for a fact that a potential similar double-release of DI is going to have been handled similarly.

 

when Derrick first pointed me toward the old Red October board (anyone know what happened to Filksinger?  Great guy, and now that I know what filk is, I have questions...  :D. ), and as I eventually moved to this board, I have ever-so-slowly developed a regret for dismissing DI (you know what they say about judging a book by its cover), I came to realize that we had essentially missed out on the honest-to-goodness genesis of the generic aspects of HERO, and that DI was the first in a line of poorly-named Action HERO Games, and not 'just another spy game.'  (The poor naming would get worse with "Dark Champions," which we _again_ dismissed by the cover- not the incredible art, but the cringe-upon-cringiness of the title.)

 

for what it is worth, for _years_ Western HERO was our guidebook for playing normal human adventures 'correctly' (sort of).  Still, all the nostalgia I have seen on the boards over the years makes me kind of regret never giving DI a real chance.  (Though even knowing what it is, I still find the cover off-putting.  Yeah; there is nothing wrong it; it is just me.  I cant tell you how much we were burned out on spy stuff- so much so that to this day I _still_ have zero interest.  I think we tried every stinking one of them.)

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

One of the coolest things about DI was that it wasn't just spy stuff.  It was also police, military, investigators, and even crossed over into aliens, horror, sci-fi, and post-apocalyptic.  It gave suggestions for using Champions powers and Fantasy Hero spell effects with DI, along with the many times reprinted "Gadgets" section. 

 

It does lean into the spy stuff, yes. Would it help you look past it if you made a brown paper bag cover for the book?  😂

[Duke Bushido]

Yeah; I know that _now_, but I learned it 20 or so years too late to do me any real good....

 

Good press and better covers (not just artwork, but something that informs upon the theme(s) inside, and most importantly, a rear blurb that _informs_ instead of just praising- are so regularly under-valued by publishers...  Not just HERO in the day, but the whole publishing industry.

 

Using DI as an examole though:

 

A square-jawed version of Carl Sagan in a brown sportscoat and black turtleneck hodling a spy-favorite concealable pistol in a background that evokes sneaking around desert military camps in the cover of night....

 

 

Oh.  I get it: yet another entry into the recent glut of spy games....

 

Nothing in the back blurb made it sound like anything other than an updated Espionage set.  That vague "Danger International" title did more to reinforce the idea that we would once again be tourists in Cairo by day....

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

If I were to reboot Danger International I'd want to lean more into the "modern adventure and excitement" feel than "James Bond".  Dark Champions kind of tries to do that now, but misses the mark because of the name which pushes it into a 90s big shoulderpads vigilante superhero niche even though its meant to be broader.

 

But you could do sections on cop campaigns, military campaigns, spy campaigns, mercenary campaigns, world-spanning treasure hunt campaigns, etc.  Dip into the most popular movies and books covering this stuff and show how to use the Hero rules to cover those kinds of things.  The tough part would be adventures; you can only stuff so much into a book, and you cannot put several really major adventures in without bloat.  A spy adventure, sure, but maybe a Dan Brown type conspiracy adventure (rip him off, its only fair, he rips everyone else off), and a military adventure would work.

Although that would nudge up against a project I wish someone would put out: War Hero.  Hero games set in various wars around the world through history.  Star back in the 100 years war or Roman conquest of France.  You could put out sourcebooks packed with adventures and updated info for each military era.

[Chris Goodwin]

12 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Yeah; I know that _now_, but I le w rned it 20 or so years too late to do me any real good....

 

There's no expiration date stamped on the book...

 

I ran a session of it as written, warts and all, at GameStorm in 2019.  "Global Task Force Omega vs. the World Terror Front".  😁  I get it if there's nothing in the book that speaks to you, but I still want to run a Psi Hero game out of it.  I wish I'd done that back in the day!

[Sketchpad]

DI is probably my second favorite Hero setting after Champions. I'd always hoped that we would get more support for it back in the day. Alas, that wasn't meant to be, even though, IMHO, there was a TON of potential.

 

If a new version were to be made, I'd love to see it more as a "Setting/System" book like the original or 4th ed Champions that would be expanded to mini-settings that expands its world into other action-based subgenres. For example: While the main book covers espionage in various forms (Bond/Mr. Robot/Bourne/MI/etc.), a new book might cover Police Procedural stories, bringing in concepts from a variety of television shows and movies (ie: CSI/Criminal Minds/Hill Street Blues/etc.). Further down the line, there could be a book on Military Operations (SEAL Team/Blackhawk Down/etc.), or even Criminal Ops (Leverage/Ocean's 11/etc.).

[rravenwood]

3 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

There's no expiration date stamped on the book...

 

1000x this!

[Duke Bushido]

I am pretty sure that it won't get rereleased; I seem to have a (possibly artificial) memory of a semi-official comment (that is, a not-stated-as-official comment from an official person) that Dark Champions is the recomended model for modern action-HERO games not covered by other genres, even though DC leans heavily toward capes and costumes, which to me (remember I am not a supers guy in general) is kind of a turn off from right out of the gate.

 

It also skews toward low-level supers as opposed to "normies."

 

As far as 6e goes, I have to fall back on 4e-era habits and use Western HERO as my standard for "heroic level" adventures.  Well, it goes a bit above normies, but at least normies are covered.

 

 

[DentArthurDent]

“Espionage” was the original Hero Games spy concept.

“Top Secret / S.I.” from TSR was a boxed set.

“Mercenaries, Spies, and Private Eyes” was from Flying Buffalo games.

I played them all ‘back in the day.’ MSPE was my favorite to flip through for game ideas. TS had the best backgrounds for James Bond type missions. Espionage had the best set of rules. (Of course.) So, we ported everything over to Espionage and had a blast trying to figure out who was shooting at us this week.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Top Secret was great early 80s source material, but terrible mechanics.  I never got to see Espionage or MSPE.  Sometimes I can find old pdf prints of that stuff online, I should look around.  I managed to find everything printed for Empire of the Petal Throne and DragonQuest.

[Duke Bushido]

MSPE was...

 

Well, it was workable, and the fans of it were die hard fans, too.  Aome folks still play it to this day, even if it isnt for spies and the like.

 

I want to say up front that there wasnt anything inherently _bad_ about the system.  It did not, however, trip any joy triggers for me: it was another reasonably solid (for the day) game for a genre that I have _still_ kind of had enough of.

 

Like DAD above, we tried them _all_..which I suspect has a lot to do with my permanent burn out on the genre as a whole. 

 

System-wise, the only real stinker (in my opinion, and it is worth slightly less than you paid for it) was James Bond.  I dont know if it was a rush job or what, but something about it just didnt gel for me- it felt like it was incomplete, and knew it was incomplete, and denied it the whole time you were playing it.

 

Well, "incomplete" is too strong: unfinished might be a better descriptor. 

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

I have a sealed boxed version of Justice Incorporated. It and Espionage were the ones I remember being boxed, along with Champions back in the day. 
 

What I remember vaguely was a story as told by Bruce Harlick, was they were planning on boxing Fantasy Hero, and Danger International for the then upcoming GenCon. Going over the numbers, they didn’t have the money to get the boxes made, and if they missed GenCon, it would have doomed Hero Games. So Bruce made the decision to put out the product as “Perfect Bound” (Square bound) books, without maps and dice, and hope they didn’t get bad reviews. But the opposite happened, and the reviews were quite positive and the public  all loved the form factor. 
 

As for Danger International itself, it was my second favorite thing to run, after Fantasy Hero. Danger International run right wasn’t James Bond, but an 80s action movie.  The rules came out smack in the middle of that genre. From buddy cops, to muscle men in jungles, to Cold War escapades, all were a good basis for a D. I. Campaign. But better than running it, was playing it with the author L. Douglas Garrett. He would run a recurring session at conventions, with other industries pros as players every nation wide convention. From the jungles of the fictitious Costa Diego, where Communist Rebels opposed the Junta, to the streets of Los Angeles fighting drug cartels. The games came across as a much smarter, and more chaotic 80s action movie.  Doug could really spin a tale. These games continued until Doug moved to Japan, where he still is to this day. 
 

Being as Doug was also one of my Traveller GMs, one could use the bones of D. I. For hero based Traveller in the days before Star Hero, but then someone published rules for running a Miami Vice campaign using classic Traveller rules. No space craft and everything was tech levels 5-7. But it was D. I.’s versatility that really made it the best modern day rules. 

[Sketchpad]

4 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

I have a sealed boxed version of Justice Incorporated. It and Espionage were the ones I remember being boxed, along with Champions back in the day. 
 

What I remember vaguely was a story as told by Bruce Harlick, was they were planning on boxing Fantasy Hero, and Danger International for the then upcoming GenCon. Going over the numbers, they didn’t have the money to get the boxes made, and if they missed GenCon, it would have doomed Hero Games. So Bruce made the decision to put out the product as “Perfect Bound” (Square bound) books, without maps and dice, and hope they didn’t get bad reviews. But the opposite happened, and the reviews were quite positive and the public  all loved the form factor. 
 

As for Danger International itself, it was my second favorite thing to run, after Fantasy Hero. Danger International run right wasn’t James Bond, but an 80s action movie.  The rules came out smack in the middle of that genre. From buddy cops, to muscle men in jungles, to Cold War escapades, all were a good basis for a D. I. Campaign. But better than running it, was playing it with the author L. Douglas Garrett. He would run a recurring session at conventions, with other industries pros as players every nation wide convention. From the jungles of the fictitious Costa Diego, where Communist Rebels opposed the Junta, to the streets of Los Angeles fighting drug cartels. The games came across as a much smarter, and more chaotic 80s action movie.  Doug could really spin a tale. These games continued until Doug moved to Japan, where he still is to this day. 
 

Being as Doug was also one of my Traveller GMs, one could use the bones of D. I. For hero based Traveller in the days before Star Hero, but then someone published rules for running a Miami Vice campaign using classic Traveller rules. No space craft and everything was tech levels 5-7. But it was D. I.’s versatility that really made it the best modern day rules. 

 

That sounds like a blast, Scott. So did he use a fusion of sorts between Hero and Traveller for the game? Or was it more a style from DI in Traveller? 

[Chris Goodwin]

DI is very much a game for lower powered, normal guys with guns.  Back in the day my group used it for a lot of games that weren't mentioned in the book: various sci-fi games, at least two of which were original to our group (one hard SF called "Near Earth Orbit" and one wacky far future game in which we were convicts sent out to explore the universe) and one that was a conversion of the Chaosium licensed Ringworld RPG; a number of Battletech conversions; a western campaign.  We didn't get the Bureau 13 game off the ground though.

 

Traveller would have fit right in.  I'm not sure why we didn't do it; I would have bet money that the other members of the group were Traveller players.

[Duke Bushido]

10 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

DI is very much a game for lower powered, normal guys with guns.

 

 

No argument there; that is why I would like to see it updated.  The heartbreaker is "Dark Champions replaced it," and Dark Champions isn't the ideal for 'normal guy with a normal gun doing normal guy things.' 

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

Traveller would have fit right in.  I'm not sure why we didn't do it; I would have bet money that the other members of the group were Traveller players.

 

 

As a guy who has been doing Traveller on HERO for a long time:

 

It works great.  

 

Some caveats:

 

If you are really into building ships, build them in Travelller and convert the finished product.  Or scramble the base and the vehicle rules together.  Or devise your own rules.  The HERO vehicle rules are extremely vague when it comes to volume and how it is divided.  That is one of the reasons we never switched from our house rules after Champions II came out.

 

Of you are really in to robots, byuld them as characters with programming limitations as Physical Limi-plications.

 

If you are into the randomness and the life/career path, roll the character up in Traveller and convert.

 

Reputation isnt a good replacement for Social Standing.  It is worth creating a Social Standing characteristic.  I tend to run it from 0 to 4, and use it as a modifier ( if I positive and negative, as appropriate) for Social interaction skills between people of different SS.  Won't go into much detail, as I have to get back on the road in a minute- riding to Crawfordville to see some friends.

 

Hero as-is cannot be as lethal as is Traveller.  You can flip on all the "bad time" switches such as hit locations, etc, but Traveller's applying damage directly to Characteristics creates a brutality that HERO just isnt equipped for out of the box.  Before anyone complains that I like killing Pcs:

I have ten times the firefights in Champions Traveller than I do in regular Traveller.  This is because the players know they are likely going to live.

 

I get a lot more social interaction, cunning, cons, dealing, and straight-up sneakery in Traveller as Traveller: the threat of the one-hit kill tends to make then more civilized in  general.