Greyhawk HERO

[Cloppy Clip]

10 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I was lying in bed this morning, procrastinating to avoid getting up for my morning cycle.  I thought I would think about character sheets and drifted to how things might be presented.

 

I made, inadvertently, a massive decision.  I was going to dispose of characteristics, or more specifically the non-infrastructure ones.  I need STUN and REC etc, but the classic ones like STR, CON, etc.

There's a lot that can be done going down this route, and for what it's worth your example character sheet looks very clean and readable so cutting down characteristics does aid in presentation to start with.

 

I think the ideas you have for replacing STR and CON can definitely work, and you can tweak the numbers to get the same results on average, but will you be okay with the extra randomness? For Stun rolls, that probably won't matter too much, but because lifting works on a geometric scale a difference of 4 on the roll would mean an 4-fold change in lifting ability. If you're focusing on the more heroic-level Fantasy HERO gameplay, would it be worth looking at tweaking the STR chart to either a linear one, or to the one from APG (I think the first one) that makes +10 STR double lifting instead of +5.

 

But that's purely a matter of preference, and the core mechanic of replacing the STR stat with lifting rolls is sound enough to work with. And, since it bears repeating, that is a very nice-looking character sheet!

[Lord Liaden]

On 3/26/2023 at 3:38 AM, Mr. R said:

Two suggestions:

 

1) Make the elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings be a larger part of the world.  Out of all the countries in the Gazetteer, I think four and not human lead.  I realize part of this was the level limits of the OG.  But you can just remove that (Whiteout is made for getting rid of pesky ole stoopid rulez)

 

2) The city of Greyhawk (like it or not) is going to be the center of everything.  All the trade going N-->S and E---> W,  ALL goes past the city.  It is THE trade hub.  

 

Personally, I agree that the prominence of nonhumans could and should be raised in this world. I always disliked that the population figures in the "gazeteers" for Greyhawk invariably quote numbers for humans first, even in the lands ruled by other races. Often the populations of "demihumans" are just noted as "few," "some," or "many." One trick I suggest, for lands which do list sizeable numbers of demihumans, is to reverse the population numbers for them and for humans, so the nonhumans are clearly the majority.

 

However, in going back over the descriptions of regions of the Flanaess not listed as "countries," I find that quite a few hill chains and forests are noted as being heavily populated by various demihumans, in several cases being virtual independent realms, e.g. the Gnomes of the Kron Hills, the Elves of Gamboge Forest, and the Dwarves of the Glorioles. These peoples are not isolationist, but trade with and sometimes cooperate in defense with the lands neighboring them. It would be easy to establish formal rulership for them as true nations.

 

As for Greyhawk, I have to dispute your characterization of the city as "THE trade hub." It does benefit greatly from trade, but its location isn't comparable to Constantinople's.   The city's position on the Selintan River gives it access to shipping between the Nyr Dyv and Woolly Bay, and from the bay to the wider seas to the south; but much of the land surrounding it is hills or forest, not friendly to overland travel. And the lands to the south on Woolly Bay are not rich, and inhospitable to outright perilous. For trade access to the Nyr Dyv, the Nesser, Artonsamay, and Velverdyva Rivers are at least as important as the Selintan.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Gauntlet]

One way I went with going similar to D&D is the use of END Reserver with a limitation on the Recovery to make it where the character has to study (or pray) for 20 minutes to get a recovery. This way spell casters could not just cast a ton of spells in each and every combat. They had to pay attention to how many spells they were casting. In addition, I did not allow spells to be at 0 END but did allow them to only cost END when starting.

[Doc Democracy]

46 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

One way I went with going similar to D&D

 

That is the slight wierdness of what I am doing.  I want to aim for the tropes of Greyhawk without seeking to replicate D&D, so magic schools and levels of ability/spells etc but not necessarily vancian magic.

[Ndreare]

On 6/11/2023 at 10:11 AM, Doc Democracy said:

Not finalised yet but I wanted to begin thinking about what character sheets might look like (it helps me focus on what needs to go on them)...had to take a snapshot to avoid going over space...

 

 

 

 

I really like this rules lite presentation. Did you ever finish this as an HDE? 

[Doc Democracy]

2 hours ago, Ndreare said:

 

 

I really like this rules lite presentation. Did you ever finish this as an HDE? 

I did not. 😞 My friend is the HD person and I only beg his time when we are definitely going to play the game.  Not there yet.

[Gauntlet]

I converted the Against the Giants (G1 through G3) to Hero and of course they are from Greyhawk. I am planning on doing the entire Greyhawk campaign series consisting of Scourge of the Slave Lords (A1 through A4), Against the Giants (G1 through G3), Decent into the Depths (D1 through D3), and ending with Queen of the Spiders (Q1).

 

I am in the process of running a campaign that goes through all of these modules in Fantasy Hero.

[Doc Democracy]

Did you agonise over the details like I am? 🙂

 

I think my game will start next year and will probably start with the Fate of Istus....

[Lord Liaden]

3 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

I converted the Against the Giants (G1 through G3) to Hero and of course they are from Greyhawk. I am planning on doing the entire Greyhawk campaign series consisting of Scourge of the Slave Lords (A1 through A4), Against the Giants (G1 through G3), Decent into the Depths (D1 through D3), and ending with Queen of the Spiders (Q1).

 

I am in the process of running a campaign that goes through all of these modules in Fantasy Hero.

 

A groundbreaking series, the first truly epic multi-part campaign published for tabletop RPGs. It inspired so many of us early gamers to imagine what was possible, and suggested how it could be done.

 

3 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

Did you agonise over the details like I am? 🙂

 

I think my game will start next year and will probably start with the Fate of Istus....

 

I dunno... IME when you find yourself agonizing over details, you're probably overthinking stuff that most of your players won't even notice. Are you sure that what you'll get from the effort is really worth that much B, S, and T?

Edited October 5, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Doc Democracy]

4 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I dunno... IME when you find yourself agonizing over details, you're probably overthinking stuff that most of your players won't even notice. Are you sure that what you'll get from the effort is really worth that much B, S, and T?

 

It is a project, something to occupy me when I have time on my hands and want to get my HERO books out, or get my Greyhawk books out.

 

I reckon the details I am agonising over will ensure I can answer all the questions my group might have so that is good.  But I am under no illusions that most of this work is for me. 😄

[Gauntlet]

19 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

A groundbreaking series, the first truly epic multi-part campaign published for tabletop RPGs. It inspired so many of us early gamers to imagine what was possible, and suggested how it could be done.

 

I have been told that it is a bad idea to put those conversions on the Hero web site due to licensing issues but if anyone would like a copy of them feel free to contact me. I am trying to make them as close to the actual D&D modules as possible.

[Lord Liaden]

I know this is supposed to be a medieval-era world, and to some extent post-apocalyptic, but the given population figures in general appear rather low to me. The most populous city in the entire Flanaess is Rel Astra, at 63,900. Greyhawk is second, at 58,000. Historically, pre-industrial cities holding hundreds of thousands of people were not common, but certainly not nonexistent. Particularly those which were important ports, along major trade routes, or the capitals of large nations.

 

On the one hand, this makes it relatively easy for a GM to manage one city as a home base for PCs, or to visit for foreign adventures. On the other, the opportunities for "big city" adventuring are rather more limited.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Gauntlet]

7 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

I know this is supposed to be a medieval-era world, and to some extent post-apocalyptic, but the given population figures in general appear rather low to me. The most populous city in the entire Flanaess is Rel Astra, at 63,900. Greyhawk is second, at 58,000. Historically, pre-industrial cities holding hundreds of thousands of people were not common, but certainly not nonexistent. Particularly those which were important ports, along major trade routes, or the capitals of large nations.

 

Is a little large, but they do count everyone in and around the city, including nearby farming towns and such.

[Lord Liaden]

8 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Is a little large, but they do count everyone in and around the city, including nearby farming towns and such.

 

So are you saying you consider the given population figures for the Greyhawk cities and realms to be more than is appropriate? If so, in what way?

 

However, in the case of independent cities which also control lands beyond, i.e. Rel Astra, Dyvers, and Greyhawk, there are separate numbers given for the city itself, and for "total, including the surrounding area."

[Gauntlet]

8 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

So are you saying you consider the given population figures for the Greyhawk cities and realms to be more than is appropriate? If so, in what way?

 

However, in the case of independent cities which also control lands beyond, i.e. Rel Astra, Dyvers, and Greyhawk, there are separate numbers given for the city itself, and for "total, including the surrounding area."

 

No, I feel it probably still is over the realistic amount. I am just saying that if you have it include all surrounding areas it is closer to realism. But still, the amount of people surviving a fantasy setting would be better than true medieval history for one reason:

 

Magical Healing

[Lord Liaden]

If the only standard you're using is most of medieval Europe, I suppose that's fair. But near the end of the first millennium CE, when London and Paris had fewer than 20 thousand inhabitants, Constantinople is estimated between 500 and 800 thousand, and Baghdad between 700 thousand and one million or more. So I could see a few major cities in the Flanaess being bumped up some, particularly Rauxes the capital of the Great Kingdom.

[GDShore]

No, "Magical healing" will not be the determinate for increased city size. As in the real world two factors determine city size Food and Water. Lose either one or the other, and your city collapses. A major trope in dystopic fiction right now is solar EMP's . Major cities around the world have on average 72 hours of food on hand, coincidentally that is the time that people start dying of thirst. Without electricity there are no pumps, no pumps no water flows thru the cities arteries. examples --- Chaco canyon drought killed it and its civilization, drought probably caused  the collapse of the Mayan civilization. Most big ancient cities are built on rivers, thus water, some build aqueducts to transport water as they grow (Rome) with water food becomes important without it people move away. 

     If you have both transportation becomes the next big factor. That transport system cannot be longer than 3 days from field to market or most foodstuffs start to spoil. (exception - grain Rome imported grain from the empires grain basket,, Egypt) Ox carts/wagons can do a max of 10 to 12 km. horses 12 to 15 km. thus a maximum radius for your farms would be 45 km. Unless you have magic. With magic you can lighten carts and wagons, or cool their interiors (see refrigeration). In the "real" world from the mid 19th century on cities began to grow and grow and grow because foodstuffs could be carried hundreds of kilometers in a day. Railroads.  In a magic society the possibility exists to transport foodstuffs from long distances away from your city. 

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, GDShore said:

No, "Magical healing" will not be the determinate for increased city size. As in the real world two factors determine city size Food and Water. Lose either one or the other, and your city collapses. A major trope in dystopic fiction right now is solar EMP's . Major cities around the world have on average 72 hours of food on hand, coincidentally that is the time that people start dying of thirst. Without electricity there are no pumps, no pumps no water flows thru the cities arteries. examples --- Chaco canyon drought killed it and its civilization, drought probably caused  the collapse of the Mayan civilization. Most big ancient cities are built on rivers, thus water, some build aqueducts to transport water as they grow (Rome) with water food becomes important without it people move away. 

     If you have both transportation becomes the next big factor. That transport system cannot be longer than 3 days from field to market or most foodstuffs start to spoil. (exception - grain Rome imported grain from the empires grain basket,, Egypt) Ox carts/wagons can do a max of 10 to 12 km. horses 12 to 15 km. thus a maximum radius for your farms would be 45 km. Unless you have magic. With magic you can lighten carts and wagons, or cool their interiors (see refrigeration). In the "real" world from the mid 19th century on cities began to grow and grow and grow because foodstuffs could be carried hundreds of kilometers in a day. Railroads.  In a magic society the possibility exists to transport foodstuffs from long distances away from your city. 

 

I disagree, magical healing definitely will increase population size, just like enhanced medicine increases it today. If you live in a world where the plague kills over 60% of your population, you definitely will have a much smaller population then one that can deal with the plague and other diseases. In Europe, the plague had a high kill count due to the lack of knowledge as to how to deal with it, while Middle Eastern lands knew how to deal with it much better. They knew that it could be spread by rats and garbage and knew to keep the infected secluded so they didn't spread the disease. In Europe they thought it was a demonic curse by demons. 

 

When you add the option to truly heal sick and injured people magically, the death tole goes way way down, increasing the overall population. Now why some of the though might be the same, disease is a cure from evil deities, the fact that you can actually do something about it makes a HUGE DIFFERENCE.

 

Now can other things cause an increase in population other than being able to truly treat disease, but you can't say that being able to heal someone magically will not significantly increase the population. Even if the population has plenty of good food and water, if their population is reduced by a huge percentage due to disease, they still will have a much smaller population, just like a population that has found a way to be completely immune to all diseases, should they have not enough food and water their population will drastically go down.

 

I am not saying that one is worse than the other, I am saying that both can be a major factor for population size. And in Greyhawk, magic as the option to assist on both sides.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Gauntlet

[Lord Liaden]

I fall in between Gauntlet and GD Shore. Magical healing -- assuming it's available to the masses, and not just to the wealthy/privileged -- could certainly lower the child death rate. However, pre-industrial and early industrial societies also had a high birth rate, in part to counter the losses of children to disease and mishap. Historical experience shows that when child mortality declines, the birth rate also tends to decline, so that would not be the defining factor. GD Shore is correct, the ultimate determinant for how large a population can grow in an area is the available food and water. Most civilizations collapse at the point when their population exceeds those resources. For cities to grow, they have to build sufficient infrastructure to bring those resources to the masses and distribute them effectively. It's why the earliest urban civilizations arose in river valleys, with fertile land and convenient transportation. And it's why pre-industrial cities with the highest populations were those in locations with abundant supplies of those things, or with the means to bring them in as needed, incentivized by the economic and political advantages to building a large city in certain places.

 

The demand for laborers in the Industrial Age led to unprecedented concentrations of people in cities, which had to build more elaborate and efficient infrastructure, aided by new technologies. If magical healing could significantly impact the death rate, it would be reasonable to assume that magical environmental control could also parallel the tech innovations improving access to and delivery of food and water.

 

And since the Flanaess of Greyhawk has all those kinds of magic, they tend to support my contention that its population should be higher in at least some cases.

[GDShore]

Gauntlet, I did not say that magic healing was not a factor in population growth just that it would not be the determinate. As LL said magic could be assumed (yes I know what assume means to you and me) As he also pointed out as child mortality goes down so to does birthrate. [anecdote I am 70 plus oldest of a family of 9 siblings, my uncles and aunts fathers side all had either 7 or 8 offspring, mom's side her 2 brothers had 4 and 6, my sibs and cousins at most only had 2 - 3 over half only 1, and 5 none at all] The 50's saw introduction of vaccines for "polio, measles, mumps and other childhood killers". {so magical healing} A couple of my uncles had children lost to polio, so yah magical healing.

[Gauntlet]

3 hours ago, GDShore said:

Gauntlet, I did not say that magic healing was not a factor in population growth just that it would not be the determinate. As LL said magic could be assumed (yes I know what assume means to you and me) As he also pointed out as child mortality goes down so to does birthrate. [anecdote I am 70 plus oldest of a family of 9 siblings, my uncles and aunts fathers side all had either 7 or 8 offspring, mom's side her 2 brothers had 4 and 6, my sibs and cousins at most only had 2 - 3 over half only 1, and 5 none at all] The 50's saw introduction of vaccines for "polio, measles, mumps and other childhood killers". {so magical healing} A couple of my uncles had children lost to polio, so yah magical healing.

 

I apologize for misunderstanding you. In that case I definitely agree. There are definitely many factors that allow for growth or Deterioration of populations. The only point I was going for was that Grayhawk has attributes that make it much easier for a larger population than there was in Europe during the Middle Ages after the fall of the Roman Empire.

[Lord Liaden]

So it sounds like we're all in agreement.

 

There is a line from the Guide to Greyhawk regarding populations that I've always found rather perturbing: " Where populations are given for demihuman and humanoid groups, the figure reflects fighting males only, as more complete data is unavailable." In other words, it sounds like those numbers don't account for women, children, and the old and infirm. When numbers are given for the racial demographics of each realm, including those ruled by non-humans, there's nothing to suggest that they reflect a quantitatively different standard than the human population. That led me to conclude that the line is meant to refer to areas which are not centrally organized enough for an accurate census.

 

However, I thought that if I extended the "fighting males" limitation to all the population figures, I could justify multiplying the written figures by four to include women etc. That would make Greyhawk, for example, a city of 232,000 inhabitants, which is more in line with large cities in history before the Industrial Age.

[GDShore]

In that we agree, in a world with magic, the diseases of infancy/childhood could be eliminated, as well, as well as the diseases of old age. (arthritis, failing eyesight ect) The use of magic in the common daily life of a world is unlimited or at least is only limited by the number and talents of the practitioner. (unless of course magic is vastly limited within the world)

[assault]

It only takes one vampire to wipe out an entire city.  That tends to concentrate populations into the ones that have enough Clerics, in this case, to protect the population.

 

Of course this assumes that there are enough Clerics who are on the same side, and not enough to destroy things.

[Doc Democracy]

I quite like the reasonably empty land scenario.  The mundane death rares are quite low but the adult death rates soar.  There are dangerous lands where the risk/reward is so high that young men and women are willing to risk their lives chasing big rewards because the alternative is often reasonably rigid social class structures.  🙂

 

It IS fantasy after all, and those monsters NEED big hunting grounds and LOTS of less than competent adventurers adding cash and kit to their lair hoards...

Edited October 7, 2023 by Doc Democracy