Greyhawk HERO

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

Problem us, I am playing Fantasy HERO rather than D&D and so spells are not one shots.

Can only cast once between nightly rest periods: -1.

 

There.  Now it's a one-shot.  As you said: you are playing HERO.  You can do whatever you want, my friend! 

 

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

  I have been looking at the use if magic earlier and I chose not to replicate the D&D trope of limited spells per day. 

 

 

 

 

Fine by me; I always thought that was silly anyway, and I get that you want _the setting_, but not necessarily the _system_ to be faithful to the original.

 

 

 

[Mr. R]

Killer Shrike has a bunch of Abilities for warriors.  Some I liked:

 

Quote

10 Follow-through Attack: Trigger on up to 60 Active Points of Killing Attack  (Trigger: when current opponent is killed in battle and there is another opponent  in HtH Range attack that opponent, +1/4); OIF (weapons of opportunity; -1/2); Costs 1 END to use; Note: takes a Half Phase Action to "Reset Trigger"

 

10 Kill Them...Kill Them ALL!!!!: +5 OCV with Sweep {allows four strikes with almost no penalty}

 

4 Dodgy: Combat Luck (3 PD/3 ED) (6 Active Points); Only While Not Wearing Armor (-1/2)

 

4 Second Skin: Combat Luck (3 PD/3 ED) (6 Active Points); Only While Wearing Heavy Armor (-1/2)

 

6 Passive Blocking: +3 DCV; OIF: Weapon of Opportunity (-1/2), vs HtH Only (-1)

 

5 Active Shield Defense: Armor (4 PD/0 ED) (6 Active Points); OAF (Shield; -1), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Only When Using Shield For DCV (-1/4); Costs 1 END per Phase

 

10 Behemoth Recovery: +15 REC (30 Active Points); Only When Taking A Non-Post Segment 12 Recovery In Combat (-2)

 

10 Last Gasp: Healing STUN 2d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; Reduced To Negative BODY; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (35 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), Self Only (-1/2)

 

15 Advanced Detect Noise: +5 PER Normal Hearing (Real Cost: 5) plus Targeting Sense (Normal Hearing) (Real Cost: 10)

 

10 Missed Me!: Missile Deflection (Arrows, Slings, Etc.)

 

 

There is even one that allows a shield bash and you don't lose the +3 DCV (Depending on size) that the shield gives.  

 

Just the following is making a warrior tough

Second Skin (+3/+3 to PD/ED)

Active Shield Defense (+4 to PD if using a shield)

Behemoth Recovery (+12 to Rec )

Last Gasp (Add a Healing Body on top for that "It's only a flesh wound!" feeling)

 

I am not sure about your armour values, but assume Plate at 8/8.

Now we have 15/11.  And it isn't enchanted yet!

 

 

 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

I thought using Burnout on Spells. Iirc Burnout you use the Power first then roll and each time you use it the roll to avoid goes down. I figured then to get rid of Burnout would be resting. I figure (and I never used it) is that you get at least one use of it and you get to choose if you want to use it again BUT there is some potential drawbacks if you do.  
 

 

19 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

Problem us, I am playing Fantasy HERO rather than D&D and so spells are not one shots.  I have been looking at the use ifmagic earlier and I chose not to replicate the D&D trope of limited spells per day.  The limitation is on the number of spells that can be remembered and cast without reference to a spellbook.

 

I agree however with the overall analysis, big up combat prowess and toughness of fighters.  The question is, rules wise, what should I be doing to do that?  I want to do it without making another class worse.

I thought using Burnout on Spells. Iirc Burnout you use the Power first then roll and each time you use it the roll to avoid goes down. I figured then to get rid of Burnout would be resting. I figure (and I never used it) is that you get at least one use of it and you get to choose if you want to use it again BUT there is some potential drawbacks if you do.  

19 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

Problem us, I am playing Fantasy HERO rather than D&D and so spells are not one shots.  I have been looking at the use if magic earlier and I chose not to replicate the D&D trope of limited spells per day.  The limitation is on the number of spells that can be remembered and cast without reference to a spellbook.

 

I agree however with the overall analysis, big up combat prowess and 

19 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

Edited April 24, 2023 by Ninja-Bear

[Doc Democracy]

What went wrong with that post @Ninja-Bear??  🤣

 

You try using the boards on Duke's phone?

4 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

23 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I thought using Burnout on Spells. Iirc Burnout you use the Power first then roll and each time you use it the roll to avoid goes down. I figured then to get rid of Burnout would be resting. I figure (and I never used it) is that you get at least one use of it and you get to choose if you want to use it again BUT there is some potential drawbacks if you do.  

 

I have considered that too, also considered some kind of side-effect that became more likely or more potent the more often a spell was used.

 

My biggest concern with that would be the increasing bureaucracy involved in changing stuff. 

 

Possibly using this on a daily spell quota rather than  a spell by spell basis...

[Doc Democracy]

20 hours ago, Mr. R said:

Killer Shrike has a bunch of Abilities for warriors.  Some I liked:

 

I intend to cast about and steal everything I can find.  However, very little of this stuff will just be free for players to "buy" with experience.  The special stuff will be tied to fighting orders and bands, meaning that players need their characters to engage with setting stuff to gain particular abilities.

[Mr. R]

Go to this thread, near the bottom, is a pdf about four basic fighting styles

One Hand

Paired weapons

Sword and Board

Two handed weapons

 

So he has a 30 pt Martial Art for each.

 

 

[Mr. R]

I just had an idea for warriors!  D&D had the Book of Nine Swords.  Different styles that gave you almost magical abilities with your weapons.  There were Stances, Strikes, Boosts, Blocks, Counters.  Blocks are already in FH.  A Counter is what it seems, a counterstrike when someone attacks.  It is the strikes, boosts, and stances that almost go over the top.   Some I remember:

 

Fire Wurm- a full move that leaves a trail of fire behind you! (FH 2d6 RKA only along run path + Extra Running)

Fire Sword - for the rest of the melee, your blade is on fire and deals extra damage (FH +1d6 RKA, no range linked to HKA)

Healing Stance- you regen 1d6 hp per round of combat (FH Heal 1d6 At post 12 recovery)

Healing Strike - Hit an opponent, heal yourself (FH 2d6 Heal linked to HKA)

Diamond Strike - do a touch attack, hit for full damage (FH hit opponent and disregard any armour-PD-ED.  So it turns your attack to a NND does Body)

 

 

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

I am thinking that it should be dangerous just being close to a warrior on the battlefield.

 

I am thinking about a very small area effect which is active whenever the warrior is fighting, possibly NND, does BODY, that can be countered by being a warrior or having an rPD of 5 or more.

[Doc Democracy]

I have been doing some reading because a feature of Greyhawk is the variety of non-human domains.  As such it is important to ensure there is decent guidance on the variety of peoples that comprise those domains.

 

Unlike a lot of other stuff though, I think Fantasy HERO has done all this work for me.  I don't think there is any real need to tweak the packages for the standard demi-humans.

 

My big ruling will be that, if you want to be an elf, or hobbit, or dwarf, you need to take the package and work from there.  That is the baseline.

 

My question is whether I present that as standard base character + elf package, or an elf base character with fewer discretionary points to spend.

 

I think HERO folk might prefer the former but, as a game, it looks better as the latter?

 

I was also wondering if there are any good package deals for humanoid types out there.  Would not want to stop folk playing orcs, goblins, giants, Griffin's or almost any intelligent creature.  A key feature of the system is it's flexibility and this does a run round of the inflexibility of D&D where you needed new races and classes and the balance (if there was any) would be in a big black box.

[Ninja-Bear]

@Doc Democracy, I would still go over racial templates. I remember that the Halfling template had bonus to Stealth skill however if you don’t buy the full skill then the extra skill levels can’t he used but the character still paid points for them. 

[Doc Democracy]

Thanks NB.  Much appreciated, it is a good point to ensure that the package does not require additional investment.

[greypaladin_01]

5 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I have been doing some reading because a feature of Greyhawk is the variety of non-human domains.  As such it is important to ensure there is decent guidance on the variety of peoples that comprise those domains.

 

Unlike a lot of other stuff though, I think Fantasy HERO has done all this work for me.  I don't think there is any real need to tweak the packages for the standard demi-humans.

 

My big ruling will be that, if you want to be an elf, or hobbit, or dwarf, you need to take the package and work from there.  That is the baseline.

 

My question is whether I present that as standard base character + elf package, or an elf base character with fewer discretionary points to spend.

 

I think HERO folk might prefer the former but, as a game, it looks better as the latter?

 

I was also wondering if there are any good package deals for humanoid types out there.  Would not want to stop folk playing orcs, goblins, giants, Griffin's or almost any intelligent creature.  A key feature of the system is it's flexibility and this does a run round of the inflexibility of D&D where you needed new races and classes and the balance (if there was any) would be in a big black box.

 

I'm not sure if they are still a thing but I remember in 4e Fantasy HERO they also had cultural packages.  They would fill gaps in for "raised by dwarves, but not dwarf" but also things like Backgrounds from 5e D&D.  "merchant, soldier"   Are you using things like those as well?

[Edsel]

I still have my old 4E Fantasy Hero book.  Yes, for each race their was a racial package and a cultural package.  The cultural package was composed of skills and disadvantages and the racial package was for characteristics, talents, powers and such.

[Doc Democracy]

Yeah, I fully expect to have enough packages to make it easy to spend 90% of their points based on setting focussed packages, with a few tweaks for personal preference.

[Lord Liaden]

18 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I have been doing some reading because a feature of Greyhawk is the variety of non-human domains.  As such it is important to ensure there is decent guidance on the variety of peoples that comprise those domains.

 

Unlike a lot of other stuff though, I think Fantasy HERO has done all this work for me.  I don't think there is any real need to tweak the packages for the standard demi-humans.

 

My big ruling will be that, if you want to be an elf, or hobbit, or dwarf, you need to take the package and work from there.  That is the baseline.

 

My question is whether I present that as standard base character + elf package, or an elf base character with fewer discretionary points to spend.

 

I think HERO folk might prefer the former but, as a game, it looks better as the latter?

 

I was also wondering if there are any good package deals for humanoid types out there.  Would not want to stop folk playing orcs, goblins, giants, Griffin's or almost any intelligent creature.  A key feature of the system is it's flexibility and this does a run round of the inflexibility of D&D where you needed new races and classes and the balance (if there was any) would be in a big black box.

 

I notice we never defined which edition of Hero this campaign is going to use. For 5E there's a fair amount of Package Deals available. The Turakian Age has Package Deals for Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, Gnomes, Goblins, Halflings, Pakasa (cat-men), Seshurma (lizard-men), Trolls (essentially giants), and others more exotic. Monsters, Minions, And Marauders, in addition to full character sheets for analogues to many classic D&D intelligent "monster" races, has several Package Deals generally applicable to intelligent humanoids of various sorts.

[Doc Democracy]

I treat HERO as a broad amalgam. 🙂  I have played so long I can guarantee that, at the table there are a bunch of things I do that might have changed but, in my head, I am playing the most recent edition.

 

I am all in on no figured characteristics, I am all in on the core book being a toolkit, hence thus thinking on how I will use it to build the game.

 

There has been so little real change in the fundamental syste,m that I am happy to draw things in from any edition, just as long as they fit the game I want to play.

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

I notice we never defined which edition of Hero this campaign is going to use. For 5E there's a fair amount of Package Deals available. The Turakian Age has Package Deals for Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, Gnomes, Goblins, Halflings, Pakasa (cat-men), Seshurma (lizard-men), Trolls (essentially giants), and others more exotic. Monsters, Minions, And Marauders, in addition to full character sheets for analogues to many classic D&D intelligent "monster" races, has several Package Deals generally applicable to intelligent humanoids of various sorts.

 

I presume, as you reference them without comment, that you think they are good and that the closely align with the Greyhawk milieu?

[greypaladin_01]

From what I remember they were well done.  And while they might not all fit Greyhawk as written, you should be able to adjust them with minimal tweaks.

[Lord Liaden]

What he said.

 

To the extent that Greyhawk conforms to the conventions of D&D, since TA was written with those conventions in mind there's high compatibility. MM&M has many creatures closely resembling their D&D analogues. For example, all the classic giant races get full character sheets: Hill, Forest, Stone, Frost, Fire, Cloud, and Storm.

 

The quality of the write-ups are the typical standard for 5E books. And since all 5E stuff is half its original cover price, they're very good deals for what you get.

 

But I was only responding to your request for Package Deals for "orcs, goblins, giants, Griffin's or almost any intelligent creature." I can only guess at what you'll find appropriate or useful. Although from all your remarks, my guess is you'd be pleased.

[Doc Democracy]

I have all the books, either in hardcopy or in pdf...  🙂

 

I simply haven't found the time to read them all, just getting a nod that they are worth looking at is welcome.

[Doc Democracy]

Working my way through things still.  The core classes are not terriby difficult to deliver a kind of class like advancement and to take the old level descriptors. 

 

My current thoughts are focussed on druids.  I am quite keen to get druids away from being a kind of cleric.  I was wondering what folk thought were the core identifiers of druidism.  My intention is to work through the special abiities in the PHB and use that as the core advancements. 

 

So, Nature sense and animal companion to start - can innately identify plants and what can be eaten and whether water is drinkable.

Woodland stride - not inhibited by natural growth etc when travelling

Trackless step - cannot be tracked through natura grounds

Resist nature's lure - +4 versus abilities of woodland creatures

Then progressing power of Wild shape

Venom immunity - immunity to organic poisons (those from animas/plants)

More Wild shape steps

A thousand faces - can change appearance at will.

Then more wild shape steps.

 

It seems like a druid is more about shapeshifting than manipulating natural forces (or anything to do with the elemental planes).  I can live with this as the additional spell stuff pulls more to nature bits.

 

I think, therefore that wild shape is a key feature of being a druid in Greyhawk.  My concern is doing this in HERO, I was reaching for multiform but you need to pay for each form individually.  It is not shape-shift because he gains abilities like flight and enhanced strength, vision and other natural abilities.  I am therefore thinking it needs to be a heavily prescribed VPP?? 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Can only cast once between nightly rest periods: -1.

 

That seems fair.  Once per day is a -2 limitation, but the D&D Vancian magic rules say -- as I recall -- that it takes an extended period of rest, not 24 strict hours to recover from the shock and stress of casting a spell.

[greypaladin_01]

19 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

It seems like a druid is more about shapeshifting than manipulating natural forces (or anything to do with the elemental planes).  I can live with this as the additional spell stuff pulls more to nature bits.

 

I think, therefore that wild shape is a key feature of being a druid in Greyhawk.  My concern is doing this in HERO, I was reaching for multiform but you need to pay for each form individually.  It is not shape-shift because he gains abilities like flight and enhanced strength, vision and other natural abilities.  I am therefore thinking it needs to be a heavily prescribed VPP?? 

 

I would suggest having 2 "paths" for Druids.   The first being Nature Magic (wind/lighting,etc) and the other being the Wild Shape style.   This allows for a little more variety while keeping both versions away from nature-cleric.

 

Multiform would be the easiest if you wanted players to stick with only a few forms.   Perhaps even giving them discounts on "new forms"   I forget all the math for mutliform at the moment.

 

However another option (a bit non-standard)  could also be a very specially constructed Multipower.   If you have access to the original Strike Force book (1988) take a look at Samiel (pg38) to see what I mean.

 

[Doc Democracy]

13 minutes ago, greypaladin_01 said:

 

I would suggest having 2 "paths" for Druids.   The first being Nature Magic (wind/lighting,etc) and the other being the Wild Shape style.   This allows for a little more variety while keeping both versions away from nature-cleric.

 

Multiform would be the easiest if you wanted players to stick with only a few forms.   Perhaps even giving them discounts on "new forms"   I forget all the math for mutliform at the moment.

 

However another option (a bit non-standard)  could also be a very specially constructed Multipower.   If you have access to the original Strike Force book (1988) take a look at Samiel (pg38) to see what I mean.

 

 

I am disinclined to settle for a relatively limited format but the Samiel example is what I am thinking about - a VPP can deliver the flexibiity but it would be the same kind of thing - the VPP would be limited to known forms but there could be lots more variety of forms and a chance to try forms previously unknown (more dfifficulty).

 

[Doc Democracy]

I was lying in bed this morning, procrastinating to avoid getting up for my morning cycle.  I thought I would think about character sheets and drifted to how things might be presented.

 

I made, inadvertently, a massive decision.  I was going to dispose of characteristics, or more specifically the non-infrastructure ones.  I need STUN and REC etc, but the classic ones like STR, CON, etc.

 

I am working out what that means and my start is that it is all presentation. 

 

If you want a strong character you buy +1 w STR skills.  One of those skills will be lifting.  The STR chart becomes a difficulty chart for lifting, lifting 100kg is +2 to difficulty and goes up +2 for each step in the chart? You would also have an indicator of the HTH damage you might want to buy to reflect that lifting power in a fight.

 

What about stunning in combat.  Well, if you take 10 STUN in a single blow you need to make a health check, That simply means rolling 10 or better on 3D6, that difficulty is increased by 1 for every STUN above 10.

 

You can buy +1 with Health which may also be used when measuring impact of fatiguing activity, resistance to other things that test your health.

 

This seems to me to work fine for PRE, DEX, INT etc.

 

It cleans up the system into two things, just skills and powers.

[Doc Democracy]

Not finalised yet but I wanted to begin thinking about what character sheets might look like (it helps me focus on what needs to go on them)...had to take a snapshot to avoid going over space...