Greyhawk HERO

[Doc Democracy]

Have seen what is out there but I think there is not enough for me to run my next game, Fantasy HERO in Greyhawk.

 

I want a classic Greyhawk "feel" which means identifying what makes Greyhawk feel like,e Greyhawk without seeking to emulate D&D. 

 

I will use this thread to talk out loud what I am thinking about, more than happy for folk to chip in. 🙂  can't promise to follow suggestions or advice but alternative views, at worst, sharpen my thinking and point out things I have not considered.

 

I will add to this as I work things out but would be interested what folk think are essential bits of playing in Greyhawk, the original Gygax setting.

 

Doc

[Lord Liaden]

I love the world of Greyhawk, but I guess I would want to be sure what you mean when you say, "classic Greyhawk." That setting has a very long history and went through some significant changes over the years. For my initial comments I'm going to assume, you being a veteran gamer , that you're referring to the setting before the Greyhawk Wars upended it.

 

To me, the first key element of the setting is history. There's a very clear time line of events by which the nations, races (especially human ethnicities), cultures, and geopolitics of the Flanaess formed as they did by the default start date of the campaign. Past events continue to affect the "present day" in numerous identifiable ways. That gives the world more of a sense of coherence than many other published fantasy settings. But the other side of that coin is that the Flanaess also features great diversity, not only in people and places, but in adventure opportunities. Scattered across the land are numerous unique realms, wilderness areas, "dungeons," and "big bads" rife with possibilities, often having no connection to each other. That helps keep a campaign fresh, and doesn't force it to be defined by one overarching threat unless one chooses to focus on one of the possibilities, e.g. a resurgent Great Kingdom, Iuz, the Scarlet Brotherhood, the Queen of Spiders, the return of Vecna, etc.

 

(BTW I find Hero Games's own The Turakian Age world to come closest to recapturing that Greyhawk style of all the settings I've come across, even to the point of resembling particular regions, although TA's scope is considerably broader.)

[death tribble]

I have the original G series modules amongst others if that helps. And my first ever module Tomb of Horrors.

[Doc Democracy]

4 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 For my initial comments I'm going to assume, you being a veteran gamer , that you're referring to the setting before the Greyhawk Wars upended it.

 

I have NO idea what you mean by veteran!  😄

 

Quote

To me, the first key element of the setting is history. There's a very clear time line of events by which the nations, races (especially human ethnicities), cultures, and geopolitics of the Flanaess formed as they did by the default start date of the campaign.

 

This will be the easiest element as it is entirely separate from gameplay.  Not sure if I am going to play pre-Wars, take them through the Wars or play after...

 

Quote

(BTW I find Hero Games's own The Turakian Age world to come closest to recapturing that Greyhawk style of all the settings I've come across, even to the point of resembling particular regions, although TA's scope is considerably broader.)

 

Never played in the Turakuan Age, though I gave flicked through it more than once.  Will look at the guidance for playing there.

23 minutes ago, death tribble said:

I have the original G series modules amongst others if that helps. And my first ever module Tomb of Horrors.

 

I have those too.  Picked up like treasures back when I was not so veteran!  I have a bunch of AD&D, 2nd Edition, and 3.5 stuff for Greyhawk.  I have been in and around Greyhawk since I was 12 and now I want to bring it to life with a proper system.  🙂

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Never played in the Turakuan Age, though I gave flicked through it more than once.  Will look at the guidance for playing there.

 

 

If you're ever curious and haven't seen this before, the link in my signature will take you to an extensive discussion of what TA is and what can be done with it.

[Duke Bushido]

Somewhere around here I have the '79 booklet.  If it is of any help to you, and if I can find it.....

 

Though I am curious about two things:

 

Greyhawk Wars?

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

24 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Somewhere around here I have the '79 booklet.  If it is of any help to you, and if I can find it.....

 

Though I am curious about two things:

 

Greyhawk Wars?

 

 

 

https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/Greyhawk#The_Greyhawk_Wars

[assault]

Probably trivia more than anything useful: apparently, Greyhawk, in Gygax's home game was originally based on the geography of North America (especially the USA).

The Darlene map, published in 1980, changed that. Initially, he kept using his original maps, but moved his game onto the published map under pressure from his players. (Source: posts on dragonsfoot.org. There's an interesting subforum on Gygax's version of Greyhawk.)

The Darlene map is what Duke Bushido referred to as the '79 booklet. The copyright dates could well say '79 if it was published in '80.

The "Great Kingdom" map of the Castle and Crusade Society was another influence. (This map was, I think, by Gygax and/or Rob Kuntz, and was intended for use in a play by mail campaign.) Both Greyhawk and Dave Arnesen's Blackmoor were originally placed on this map.

Greyhawk initially was a city, dungeon and neighbouring area, rather than an entire continent, and was expanded as required.

I may have mis-remembered some of this. Tracking down all the references is too much effort at the moment. The Dragonsfoot forum is a good start, as of course is Google and Wikipedia.

[Duke Bushido]

Thanks, Assault.

 

And thanks To,you, too, LL, but Wikipedia is one of those sites the computer wont go any more, and it is a serious PITA to read on rhe phone.  Too it off with not seeing any entry for "Greyhawk Wars" and I secided not to risk they eyestrain.

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

Thanks, Assault.

 

And thanks To,you, too, LL, but Wikipedia is one of those sites the computer wont go any more, and it is a serious PITA to read on rhe phone.  Too it off with not seeing any entry for "Greyhawk Wars" and I secided not to risk they eyestrain.

 

 

 

My apologies, Duke. Let me transcribe the relevant passages:

 

In order to move players from Gygax's familiar World of Greyhawk to their new vision, TSR planned a trilogy of modules that would familiarize players with events and conditions leading up to the coming war, and then take them through the war itself. Once players completed the war via the three modules, a new boxed set would be published to introduce the new storyline and the new Flanaess. Two World of Greyhawk Swords modules, WGS1 Five Shall Be One by Carl Sargent and WGS2 Howl from the North by Dale Henson, were released in 1991. These described events leading up to the war.

 

The third module was reworked into Greyhawk Wars, a strategy war game that led players through the events, strategies, and alliances of the actual war. A booklet included with the game, Greyhawk Wars Adventurer's Book, described the event of the war. In 582 CY (six years after Gygax's original setting of 576 CY), a regional conflict started by Iuz gradually widened until it was a war that affected almost every nation in the Flanaess. A peace treaty was signed in the city of Greyhawk two years later, which is why the conflict became known as the Greyhawk Wars.

 

In Gygax's setting, the major conflict had been between the Great Kingdom and the lands that were trying to free themselves from the evil overking. In Sargent's world, the Great Kingdom storyline was largely replaced by the major new conflict between the land of Iuz and the regions that surrounded it. Southern lands outside of Iuz's were threatened by the Scarlet Brotherhood, while other countries had been invaded by monsters or taken over by agents of evil. Overall, the vision was of a darker world where good folk were being swamped by a tide of evil.

[Mr. R]

Two suggestions:

 

1) Make the elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings be a larger part of the world.  Out of all the countries in the Gazetteer, I think four and not human lead.  I realize part of this was the level limits of the OG.  But you can just remove that (Whiteout is made for getting rid of pesky ole stoopid rulez)

 

2) The city of Greyhawk (like it or not) is going to be the center of everything.  All the trade going N-->S and E---> W,  ALL goes past the city.  It is THE trade hub.  

[Doc Democracy]

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Somewhere around here I have the '79 booklet.  If it is of any help to you, and if I can find it.....

 

Though I am curious about two things:

 

Greyhawk Wars?

 

 

Thanks Duke, I have a goodly chunk of early AD&D Greyhawk in hardcopy.  My copy of the World of Greyhawk is a 1983 second printing, possibly the first one to come to the UK is significant numbers.

 

The Greyhawk Wars was just TSR/WotC moving on the timeline and, has been said, tilting the world to a bit more grimdark (on trend for the time!). 

 

I am a bit less grimdark but I appreciate the significantly simplified background, and clearer pointing out of immediate big bad rather than the ancient collapsing Empire.

13 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

If you're ever curious and haven't seen this before, the link in my signature will take you to an extensive discussion of what TA is and what can be done with it.

I was part of that thread, I remember reading it with interest.

[Doc Democracy]

My first thought on incentivising buying into Greyhawk tropes will be a significant number of package deals, not just making it simpler to put together a bunch of powers/skills etc that make sense in the setting but to go back to the original concept of giving a package bonus, perhaps up to 5% cost savings.

 

You think 5% is enough to incentivise players to buy in? 

[death tribble]

Probably

 

There are a number of things that might help as aids. One is a list of personalities

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greyhawk_characters

The Gods

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greyhawk_deities

And unique magical items like Heward's Mystical Organ.

[Doc Democracy]

I always felt that TSR did not do enough to emphasise the different cultures withing the key human populations, not least by not explicitly listing the deities as ones associated with each culture and which have become a bit more cosmopolitan.

 

THAT is a bit of work I can do for my players.

[Duke Bushido]

57 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

My first thought on incentivising buying into Greyhawk tropes will be a significant number of package deals,

 

Oh, yes!  I really do not care what they are called- package deals, templates, whatever-- they are part and parcel of Fantasy HERO, at least dor me.   Yeah; other genres can use them, but I sonr always use them for other heroic games.  I dont think I have ever done a fantasy game without them, though.  Dont know that I _could_ from a flavir perspective.

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

You think 5% is enough to incentivise players to buy in? 

 

It depends in three things, Sir:

 

The starting points limit for the game (the fewer the points, the more apoealing any discount becomes), the kind of players you have (how savvy are they in the system, and how do they respond do opportunities or temptation), and hiw many oackages any one character will be able to purchase (perhaps racial, cultural, and career?  The more packages, the more points shaved, which can increase the appeal, especially if the bonus is relatively small).

 

 

I have found by and large that a "bonus" of size sufficient to allow players to bump the effectiveness of one ability or skill within the package seems to be sufficient temptation for my players, as well as saving the cost on enough points to buy a single skill and raise it to somewhere  around 12, 13 or less.

 

I have never really looked at a percentage, so I can't say what works.  Generally, I decide what I find for the game at hand to be an ideal number of packages and price the packages so that if that number is purchased the players may gain a rebate of somewhere between four and seven points in total, with larger and "combat" packages receiving slightly smaller discounts than knowledge, talents, etc.  

 

I could probably rethink that, since I havent seen Davien in a couple of decades, but still-  the minute I tried to make all packages equal, he would show up in my doorstep with a paladin barbarian frost giant or some such crap.

 

 

So yes; I think five percent would be quite temprinf indeed.

 

[Doc Democracy]

I reckon I need to start with a decent selection of stuff.  I am going to look hard at the city of Greyhawk, do a thorough job of the kinds of adventurer that might pass through.

 

That will be the baseline.

 

I will add in a sample of other folks, like a Sea Prince, a member of the Red Brotherhood, a Paynim, a northern barbarian, and one or two others.

 

I will then be happy to custom build package deals if one of my players invests enough time with the setting material to suggest something not in the core.

[Duke Bushido]

After the synopses given of the evolution of Greyhawk (and my thanks to both of you again), I am going to suggest that the first step might be deciding _which_ Greyhawk you will be playing in.

 

For what it's worth, I was never a fan of grimdark as a _theme_, but it has value as a _threat_ (stop the impending grimdark), but frankly, I don't think any of us, under any but the most Monte Haul of DM, ever had a snowball's chance of keeping a party alive long enough to really become even an annoyance to Iuz the Evil or similar such published characters for any game in any genre.  And the other problem was playing a game for three or four years with only a single end goal....  It never happened.  We just lost interest and tended to find side quests to stay entertained.  It's like retirement: ten years into the job, and you start counting down, because you have had enough of that already.  That is apropos of nothing except to suggest that if the goal is to "stop Iuz the Evil,'  I would encourage you to consider starting them out at sufficiently higher than 'starting level" characters: while videogame developers might not have figured it out, grinding for levels specifically to get levels to complete the single goal laid out at the beginning?  Not a lot of fun.

 

And just as commentary: I rather _liked_ the crumbling ancient Empire as individual cultures and city states came into their own.  It was a rather oprimistic background that suited my own visions at the time.   Besides, I live in 2023.  I have had more than enough dystopia; thank you.

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

I would think that the "Flavor" of D&D is Vancian Magic, and the types of Monsters and opposition you go up against. Now I really dislike  Vancian magic, and despair every time someone sets out to write D&D Spells in Hero, especially when there are a lot of other "literary" magic systems out there.  But making the monsters could be an interesting design challenge that I see far fewer examples of.

That being said, looking at those old modules to pull world building information might be the most valuable, who is where, what are the cultures like, what do they trade, and such would be quite useful.

[Doc Democracy]

I am quite inclined to play the Wars actually, I think the stuff that goes on and the potential for action and consequences makes for a lot of gameable content.  I need to see where the PCs can make a difference on the edges.  A war provides lots of opportunities for adventurers and the fluctuating politics gives a lot of roleplay opportunity.

 

I see them as a mix between special forces and spies. 

 

I agree with the need for more tactical goals rather than getting hung up on the major strategic goal of beating Iuz.  The existence of the USSR did not stop many great cold war action stories.

[Doc Democracy]

Just now, Scott Ruggels said:

I would think that the "Flavor" of D&D is Vancian Magic, and the types of Monsters and opposition you go up against. Now I really dislike  Vancian magic, and despair every time someone sets out to write D&D Spells in Hero, especially when there are a lot of other "literary" magic systems out there.  But making the monsters could be an interesting design challenge that I see far fewer examples of.

That being said, looking at those old modules to pull world building information might be the most valuable, who is where, what are the cultures like, what do they trade, and such would be quite useful.

 

D&D is indeed bound to Vancian magic but I dont think Greyhawk needs to be.  I think there is a role for circles of magic and hierarchies and how I make that work is something I am working on.

 

I am looking forward to working through the Monster Manual and comparing to what has been done elsewhere.

[Mr. R]

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

And just as commentary: I rather _liked_ the crumbling ancient Empire as individual cultures and city states came into their own.  It was a rather oprimistic background that suited my own visions at the time.   Besides, I live in 2023.  I have had more than enough dystopia; thank you.

 

 

YES!  YES!  YES!

[Doc Democracy]

I have made my first decision. 

 

Alignments need to exist.  The Manual of the Planes show there are Outer Planes that are the essence of each alignment.  Those alignments intruding on the Prime Material are the fundment for clerical magic.  I think that each player can choose to take a physical complication - [Alignment] - and will suffer consequences of acting outside that alignment - the GM should give in game warnings of straying, like dreams and magical messengers.  OR you can choose to take the social complication of No alignment.  That will make certain magic impossible for you to access and make you stick out in a world where the vast majority of the population wear their allegiance to particular deitites in their aura.  It will be positive for some looking for people free to act more freely and negative in that many may distrust someone without an alignment more than someone of the opposite alignment. 

 

The presence of alignment also has a heavy lean into how the world works and whether there are such things as evil races.  I am pretty much against absolutes (it is why I like HERO!) and to say that orcs must be evil and elves must be good seems wrong to me.  There has to be a better way but, if there is, it needs to be tied into the fundamentals of the setting.  I want good orcs and I want evil elves but I want them to be possible exceptions (I think many folks of all races will probably tend neutral with their society pushing them one way or another). My gaming group has been together for over 20 years and we are quite comfortable with each other as far as content goes, we now and trust each other, we know where our limits are and when (and how) those can be stretched.  However, I am aware of the broader concern in the hobby about evil races and sometimes about the existence of evil itself.  As I said, in my opinion, Greyhawk is quite tightly tied to the concept of evil (and good and law and chaos) as a thing in the universe.  It is also quite tied to particular gods (with their archetypal alignments) creating particular races.

 

I am not down with an orc being chaotic evil simply because it is an orc.  I can see an orc living in a chaotic evil culture and probably participating in that culture (and possibly then, be default, behaving in a chaotic evil manner).  What I could not see was why an orc might stay in such a situation. It was easy to see why Russians stayed in Communist Russia, because, beyond the inertia of that was where they were born and knew little else, it was not easy to migrate.  What reason could there be for orcs and other humanoids in Greyhawk?

 

My answer has been that it is the fault of the Gods and their acolytes on earth.  When the gods created the humanoid races, it was to generate chaos and evil on Oerth.  So, priests of the evil gods have an ability to create a Beast Pit (or hell pit or fiend pit - multiple names, same outcome).  When a priest of Gruumsh, for example, creates such a pit, they can raise dozens (or hundreds, depending on their power level) of bestial versions of an orc sacrificed to the pit.  As such, every humanoid becomes a potential source of a bestial invasion.  For this reason, many societies reject the presence of humanoids within their territory, meaning that humanoid tribes are outcast to those places not under the rule of law and those tribes tend towards places where evil and chaos thrive.  There is also a distinct difference between the individual orc or goblin that you can judge on their actions, and the bestial versions that you encounter when assualting the temple of elemental evil or defending Dyvers from invading hordes.

 

I think this puts the existential alignment struggles front and centre and removes the trope of "the only good orc...".  It opens up lines of communication to those humanoid settlements that are essentially free-willed beings scratching a living in the margins of society who are regularly exploited by the evil hierarchies that tolerate their existence.  It also helps explain the explosion of humanoid armies at particular times and why it does not just happen all the time.

 

There I go, picking at the difficult points first....

 

Doc

I will be totally up for the player characters, if this is their desire, to create a humanoid-safe location within the setting, where folk can come together to demonstrate the value of treating everyone as a valued member of that society regardless of their mythic origins.  I think it could be a fantastic campaign, just not one that every group might want to play (unless they are a a bunch of Builder player archetypes!).

[Steve]

Kenzer Company had a take on orcs in their game world that was reminiscent to me of the LOTR movies. I thought it was interesting as it got away from some of the moral questions raised in fighting and killing orcs.

 

Basically, there are no female orcs or orc children. Orcs are instead germinated within foul pits under the earth or dark, hidden places that are the result of evil magic. These pits normally churn out “common” orcs, a few spit out each month, I think was the rate. However, if a being of another race is brought and sacrificed into one of these pits, a stronger, smarter, tougher orc is made from them, emerging forever corrupted by the pit into one of these superior orcs.

 

Orcs were monsters, a corrupted creation of dark magic. The concept could likely be expanded into having lesser pits producing goblins.

[Old Man]

On 3/26/2023 at 8:48 AM, Doc Democracy said:

 

D&D is indeed bound to Vancian magic but I dont think Greyhawk needs to be.  I think there is a role for circles of magic and hierarchies and how I make that work is something I am working on.

 

I am looking forward to working through the Monster Manual and comparing to what has been done elsewhere.

 

Greyhawk is one of those D&D settings that is actually made better by staying away from Vancian magic.  Archmages like Mordenkainen and Bigby tended to have abilities that the default system simply can't handle, such as the ability to invent new spells (and name them after oneself).

 

Magic has little effect on daily life in Greyhawk, with magic users largely preferring to stay in the shadows (for unexplained reasons).  Greyhawk the city is basically Lankhmar; sorcery happens in the corners but you're not going to see streets lit by Continual Light very often.

 

Conversely, clerics were pretty prominent, openly participating in politics and wars.

 

Interestingly, the D&D alignment system (gag) figured strongly in the setting, with alignments assigned to entire nations, and the Circle of Eight formed specifically to maintain The Balance (when they weren't fighting each other).