Extra Speed to Abort

[unclevlad]

7 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

What he's saying is that when you buy a power, and buy an advantage on that power, its just an advantage.  What the book is referring to is, for example, a ring that grants you armor piercing punches, or a set of braces that reduces END on your running.  So you can technically buy a naked advantage on a single power, but only if its something not inherent to that power.

 

What?

 

What does that even mean?

 

There are no restrictions on naked advantages on a single power.  Never use an example as a definition of how it can be used.  It's a single example.  Also, it's very clear that a naked advantage is NOT an advantage.  It's a power.

 

Note that naked advantages are already MASSIVELY handicapped by the rules.  A naked advantage on, say, a defensive power that doesn't cost END...still costs END.  The limitations on the base power, carry over to the naked advantage...but you don't get any cost reduction.  Naked advantages are the most tightly restricted powers in the game...they're both special powers, AND they can't be applied to any power in any framework.

 

These aren't bad rules per se;  they just take a conservative approach, to avoid gaming the system, trying to avoid potential abuses.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

What does that even mean?

 

...it means that if you buy an advantage on a power, its just a power with an advantage.  A naked advantage is one that can be used on any of the listed power or powers whatever their source.  Its a disembodied advantage, a ghost of a structure.  It doesn't have any powers, its just an advantage and the power it attaches to has to be supplied.

[unclevlad]

13 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

...it means that if you buy an advantage on a power, its just a power with an advantage.  A naked advantage is one that can be used on any of the listed power or powers whatever their source.  Its a disembodied advantage, a ghost of a structure.  It doesn't have any powers, its just an advantage and the power it attaches to has to be supplied.

 

OK, I agree that the power to which it applies, or the group of powers, has to be specified.  I wouldn't call it "disembodied" or "ghost"...but that's getting into semantics, and POV....inside looking out, or outside looking in.

[Duke Bushido]

19 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

  You would probably let them pay 10 points for a point of SPD for the same extra action per turn that could be used for anything.

 

 

For the record, that same argument made to myself several decades ago is what made me decide to allow it, with a +2 for the extreme flexibility it offered, what with being able to use it anywhere:

 

Use a held phase, then take your phase, then take your Extra phase...

 

Lots of utility, but forty years of playtesting has determined that it isn't remotely close to game-breaking.

 

 

[Jason Reid]

51 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Lots of utility, but forty years of playtesting has determined that it isn't remotely close to game-breaking.

 

Would I let someone do it? Probably. Would I let someone who is already at 7 SPD do it? Probably not.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

For the record, that same argument made to myself several decades ago is what made me decide to allow it, with a +2 for the extreme flexibility it offered

 

Were I to use this kind of structure, I would call it an advantage on SPD, you can buy a point of speed and put lets say, Flexibility as an advantage on it, to let you use that phase at any point during the turn without regard to the speed chart.  However, I would want to make the advantage scale up, like ½ per speed point with Flexibility:

 

1 extra SPD point +½

2 extra SPD points +1 each

3 extra SPD points +1½ each 

 

and so on.  That's just off the top of my head but I want the extra speed to be costly, very much so if you get more than one.  Or just limit it to one, ever, only.

 

Note: this is still massively cheaper than buying trigger or a similar structure, so is it properly built?

[Duke Bushido]

34 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

but I want the extra speed to be costly, 

 

Agreed.   I started it with a +2 Advantage.   It was just a gut reaction, but it worked well enough that it has stayed at +2 ever since.

 

 

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Note: this is still massively cheaper than buying trigger or a similar structure, so is it properly built?

 

 

At +2, I dont think it is too terribly much cheaper, and ultimately, what is "Trigger" except yet another way to try to sneak one past the Speed Chart?

 

When looked at that way, I woyld suggest making it work out to exactly what Trigger works out to be ahould be readily acceptable.  As Trigger cab work 12 phases consecutively (auto reset), matbe it _should_ be cheaper.

 

Guarantee that's going to be an unpopular opinion. 

 

 

46 minutes ago, Jason Reid said:

Would I let someone do it? Probably. Would I let someone who is already at 7 SPD do it? Probably not.

 

 

If you allow them to have some other action on Trigger, there is no logical defense for not alowing them to have this.

 

If I use the official Riposte builds, I can twelve atttacks with an SPD 2-  maybe more, depending on how many swordsmen I face.

 

Giving but one addition move/attack combination is nothing next to that.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

When looked at that way, I woyld suggest making it work out to exactly what Trigger works out to be ahould be readily acceptable.  As Trigger cab work 12 phases consecutively (auto reset), matbe it _should_ be cheaper.

 

Yeah trigger has a warning on it for good reason, I think the main reason people don't abuse it as much as they easily could is that they don't quite understand how it works,.

 

+2 feels high?  But I haven't playtested it at all so I'll defer to your experience.

[unclevlad]

I agree it's high, but the tactical value means it can be very effective when used at the right time.  It's definitely something where I'd want to start high, and maybe cut it down...but I wouldn't do that without considering how well it was being used.  

[tunglashr]

I appreciate all of the discussion on this. I would like to say that for me, this is one of those 'know your players' things.

 

The woman who I designed this for I have played with for over 15 years, and in that time she has never once even attempted to game the system. In fact, when we play Hero she just tells me narratively what she wants to do, and I figure out the rules for her and say what she needs to roll. She would absolutely not take extra advantage of this.

 

As I mentioned before we dont use the SPD chart at all. We use cards. To abort you just discard your next card. This power just means if she wants to try and use her TK to protect an innocent, she can do it without throwing away a card. If I were to guess this is a power she would probably use 1-2 times per arc, but when she does use it, she will LOVE it.

 

The point of this power was mostly to give a player something I know she will really enjoy, and just find a way to give it a reasonable cost.

[Doc Democracy]

8 hours ago, tunglashr said:

The point of this power was mostly to give a player something I know she will really enjoy, and just find a way to give it a reasonable cost.

 

The best reason to bend the rules is to reward good players playing good.  😄

Edited July 19, 2023 by Doc Democracy

[Duke Bushido]

On 7/18/2023 at 4:15 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Yeah trigger has a warning on it for good reason, I think the main reason people don't abuse it as much as they easily could is that they don't quite understand how it works,.

 

You may be on to something there, Sir. 

 

 

On 7/18/2023 at 4:15 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

+2 feels high?  But I haven't playtested it at all so I'll defer to your experience.

 

18 hours ago, unclevlad said:

I agree it's high, but the tactical value means it can be very effective when used at the right time. 

 

If either of you gentlemen is interested, I will be happy to explain how this pricing came about.  If you are not intwrested, skip the rest of this post.   

 

18 hours ago, unclevlad said:

It's definitely something where I'd want to start high, and maybe cut it down...but I wouldn't do that without considering how well it was being used.  

 

 

That is precisely how I ended up starting it out at +2, amusingly enough.

 

I had toyed with +1, but I know my players- even at the time I was being asked to approve or create an "extra action when I want it" power,  I understood that each of the two players asking had very specific uses for such a power.  My players (my old supers players, that is, from the original group) were legendarily good at creating complex, hyper-specific powers that stacked limitations like Michael Vanner stacks cups, and twice as slick.  Then they would create ultra-complementary characters (which was, honestly, _great_!  I wish more of my current players were so bent) that were capable of creating the unique sitautions or providing the oddball defenses, etc-  needed to maximize the other characters.  Honestly, my original group were tacticians of a caliber I have never been able to achieve.  I suspect even Scott would have been impressed.

 

Anyway, knowing that, I knew right away that this power, once built or approved, would be run through that cycle and probably combined with something else, etc.  I also understood that this would make this relatively inexpensive, and I felt it should _not_ be inexpensive.  So right off the bat, I priced it at 20 pts-  essentially an additional pip of SPD with a +1 Advantage.

 

Immediately they pointed out that they could buy an additional point of SPD for only 10 points.  I concurred, but pointed out the utility of being able to use this action whenever they wanted- on any Phase.  The rebuttal was they could buy an additional point of SPD and hold an action, aownd it the phase before their next, and then hold that action, essentially meaning that they could, in fact, more inexpensively just buy another point of SPD for half the price and achieve the same effect.

 

Now as I said, my players back then were brilliant strategists and tacticians, but they were _terrible_ negotiators.  I, despite whatever opinions may be floating about, am not particularly _stupid,_ either, even if it amuses me to play the buffoon now and again. 

 

_I_ knew they could do what they claimed with an extra point of SPD.  _They_ knew they could.  They knew that I knew they could, and vise-versa.

 

Yet in spite of knowing they could do that, they still wanted this separate ability.  So there were two possibilities:  either they were trying to get me to approve an extra point of SPD they could throw limitations on, or there was utility that they saw and were hoping to get an approval before I figured out what that utility was.  (You gamers from way back will recall that back in the 70s and up through the mid 90s, there was an air of Players vs GM in even the most cooperative of games.  It went away eventually, but still...).

 

So I listed, out loud, to them, a short list of "utility" that this granted them that was not available under the hood, use, hold again model:

"It is _always_ available.  If you get tripped up and are for some reason unable to hold your action, this is still available.  You don't have to wait until tour next phase; you simply use this power.

 

This isnt a conditional automatic power ("uncontrolled" was the original Trigger; define a condition, and when that condition was met: Boom.  Still prefer it: no messing with resets or any of that mess.  Don't really know why Trigger came to be, given the utility of Uncontrolled, delayed effects, etc).  That is, it is not "when condition X is met," but whenever you want to use it.

 

It is not one specific power.  It is not even any power; it is any two action (except two attacks) that you want, when you want it.

 

And we discussed back and to, and they were quite keen to pin me down on the "use it any time you want" bit, and I was... Concerned...  So I said "you know, you're right.  That is a lot of utility, especially aince you can use it absolutely any time you want.  Better make That a +2."

 

There was some outcry, and some token argument (obviously token.  Like I said, they were awful negotiators), but since it was clearly token arguments, I both stood my ground and accepted that they were up to something really unique and I would instantly love it and simultaneously hate having to deal with it.

 

They agreed; I agreed; they whipped out their new character for the next night's game and made a few adjuatments here and there, then almost simultaneously plunked down their sheets in front of me.

 

One presented a martial artist who bought the "extra action" power twice, with a few limitations (acceptable at the time, but I know longer remember what they were).  He used it to initiate defensive actions without aborting, and periodically on top of an existing Phase (I had blindly agreed to 'use it whenever you want, and I confess: I kind of liked this idea) so he could do single-phase haymakers or move-by attack with full-move velocities and other interesting "if only a Phase had four actions' combinations.

 

The other presented a mysterious and mystical stranger from beyond physics and just to the left of time....

 

There was, once upon a time, a power called Temporal Fugue.  I have had a bit of sun poisoning today, and am drawing a blank on the source material (I think it was a listed EDM variant in 4e, but it may have come from Dragon or who knows....).  Anyway, I allowed it because Jim had always allowed it, but it had never appeared in our supers games before. 

 

This character was only able to use his Extra Action with Temporal Fuge, and the Temporal Fuge could "only" take him back to the start of his previous action phase.  So id he whiffed his action, he could fugue back,and try again, and hey-  I haven't used my Fugue yet, so if I whiff again, I still have it!

 

As expected:

 

I loved and hated the ideas simultaneously,(particularly the ninja guy-  the one-phase Haymaker idea _rocked_!)

 

The importsnt thing here, though, was that even at an initial cost of +2, they had found solid, acceptable builds that whittled the cost down to less than another point of SPD would cost.

 

Which is why I have never lowered that starting cost.

 

Now looking at Trigger and what it costa to gwt the single "extra action' for which it is bought (a single,action typically being half a phase or less), and the much more flexible utility of an extra phase to do whatever you will, I don't find +2 to be terribly out of line.

 

Your mileage may vary, of course.

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Don't really know why Trigger came to be, given the utility of Uncontrolled, delayed effects, etc

 

The difference I see is that trigger works when and how you want it, and uncontrolled works when and how the GM wants it.

[Jason Reid]

On 7/18/2023 at 1:43 PM, Duke Bushido said:

On 7/18/2023 at 12:56 PM, Jason Reid said:

Would I let someone do it? Probably. Would I let someone who is already at 7 SPD do it? Probably not.

 

If you allow them to have some other action on Trigger, there is no logical defense for not alowing them to have this.

 

If they already had 7 SPD, I probably wouldn't let them have any other regularly triggerable actions available. But that's all just expression of table limits.

[Gauntlet]

How about something like this:

 

Character has a base speed of 5 and then the following:

+7 SPD (70 Active Points); Missile Deflection/Reflection Only (-1)

 

Now the character has the option to deflect/reflect attacks every phase without penalties other than multiple attacks on the same segment.

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

How about something like this:

 

Character has a base speed of 5 and then the following:

+7 SPD (70 Active Points); Missile Deflection/Reflection Only (-1)

 

Now the character has the option to deflect/reflect attacks every phase without penalties other than multiple attacks on the same segment.

 

By the book, he also has to spend END on constant powers every segment.

[LoneWolf]

The same thing could be achieved by buying extra SPD equal to the characters own as long as your SPD is 6 or under.   At 7 and above you would need to purchase SPD high enough to bring you to 12.  In all honesty a character with a high SPD probably does not need this as they will usually have enough phases, they go in to be able to protect those that need it.   Something like this is more useful for a character with a low SPD.  

 

The thing to keep I n mind is that buying extra SPD is going to affect your character in other ways.  You still need to pay END for ongoing powers on those phases.  This can easily cause character to run out of END way sooner than they normally do.   Now in addition to purchasing the extra SPD you need more END and probably REC. Don’t forget that deflection also cost END which means you have an extra 2 END per phase in addition to all the other END you normally spend.  

 

The character with 5 SPD who usually spends 3 END per phase will have spent 15 END at the end of the turn.    That same character with an extra 7 SPD   will have spent 47.   Assuming a 10 REC and 50 END the first character can fight for 10 turns.  With the extra SPD the character is run out of END in phase 2 of his second turn.  That means he needs to start burning STUN to act.   If the character uses more than 3 END per phase, he will probably not even last a turn.  Even if the character does not have anything else that costs END he still needs to pay for the deflection.  That means the 5 SPD character with an extra 7 SPD that normally uses 3 END per phase is spending 29 END instead of 15.   

 

Playing an effective character with a high SPD is more than simply purchasing more SPD.   Taking a recovery in combat is dangerous and not always possible anyways.  All it takes is a single agent with a held phase to prevent that.  
 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

By the book, he also has to spend END on constant powers every segment.

 

This is a bit of a flaw with the "3+3" type of speed build, yeah.  Although it rarely comes up with the kind of characters I've bought it for in the past.

[Jason Reid]

3 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Playing an effective character with a high SPD is more than simply purchasing more SPD.

Yeah exactly this is why SPD is so cheap on the surface...there are other assumed costs involved in maintaining that SPD. I'm really not a fan of conditional SPD.

[LoneWolf]

As a GM I would highly encourage a player to avoid conditional SPD because of all the headaches it creates.   Not only does this create a lot of bookkeeping nightmares it often ends up not working as well as the player thinks it will.   

 

For example, let’s say a character has 3 + 3 SPD.   The player acts in phase 4 and does not need to deflect until 7.  By then phase 6 has come and gone so if the character wants to protect the innocent, he needs to cancel his phase 8.   In 10 he can only deflect so gets no action until phase 12 unless he is deflecting.  If he deflects it resets his penalty to 0, but he still cannot attack.   The character could have deflected in 2, Attack in 4 deflect in 7, reset the penalty in 10 and attack in 12.   The character still only attacked twice and spent the rest of the time deflecting.  A character with a SPD of 3 will be able to attack the same number of times and still deflect anything the other character can if he can make the roll.  If the character simply bought a 4 SPD he would be able to attack in 3 and 5, cancel his 9 in 7 to deflect and be able to attack in 12.   

 

The above case is pretty specific but illustrates the point that conditional SPD does not always deliver what the character expects.   Factor in the increase END and other problems and it makes the idea of conditional SPD a real pain.    To me a better way would be to simply buy more SPD and lower the characters movement.   
 

[unclevlad]

Not disagreeing at all with what you're saying there, LW...

 

But just pointing out...it's a problem because of the insistence on tying it to SPD, and therefore the SPD chart.  DON'T   Define a new mechanic altogether that doesn't have the overwhelming baggage.  

 

RAW is not, and has never been, complete.  Not everything that you want to define is a good fit for what it has.  There are several things where trying to cram things into the existing structure is seriously wrong-minded, IMO.  The rules work well for MOST cases...but the power development model has major flaws at times.

[LoneWolf]

The problem for me is that the character is spending points on something that is rarely going to be used and when it is used is not going to allow them to do something they could not already do.  As a GM I try to be fair with my players.  Too me this seems to be a bit unfair to the player.  He is paying points for something that does not do what he wants it to, and that in all honesty is going to cause him problems.   Allowing a player to spend points that makes their character weaker and causes problems just seem wrong.  To me this is like stealing candy from a baby.    Characters should pay for what they can do, they should not pay for stuff that does not work.  

[Hugh Neilson]

I think it is important to discuss what the character could do, and how this will work, with the player.  Let's assume a 5 SPD.  This one "abort whenever you want" phase will allow a once per turn abort to deflect/reset the multiple block penalty.  +1 SPD would allow one more phase to take any action, including abort to deflect,  Holding actions to the end of a phase will minimize the times when an Abort to Deflect is not possible.  As LoneWolf notes, skill levels to Deflect will reduce the impact of the "multiple deflect" penalties.

 

It sounds like the player is not expert in the mechanics, and may appreciate a better understanding of the options more than any "instant abort" mechanism.

[Doc Democracy]

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I think it is important to discuss what the character could do, and how this will work, with the player.  Let's assume a 5 SPD.  This one "abort whenever you want" phase will allow a once per turn abort to deflect/reset the multiple block penalty.  +1 SPD would allow one more phase to take any action, including abort to deflect,  Holding actions to the end of a phase will minimize the times when an Abort to Deflect is not possible.  As LoneWolf notes, skill levels to Deflect will reduce the impact of the "multiple deflect" penalties.

 

It sounds like the player is not expert in the mechanics, and may appreciate a better understanding of the options more than any "instant abort" mechanism.

 

 

If I had a SPD 5 character and buy +1 SPD and hold until end of phase, instead of acting on 3,5,8,10,12, I act on 3,5,7,9,11,12.

 

I reckon I concede initiative on 3 and 5 because, by necessity, I need to be reactive.  But then I move on odd segments, which probably provides me with a small advantage, and, of course, the additional action that I paid points for.

 

I would find this frustrating to play because I prefer being proactive.

 

As for aborting to deflect, if I have just acted on 7, I cannot abort my next action to deflect on 7, right? This relies on the player being aware of the point when one phase becomes another and when one segment ends and becomes another.  That is a tiring way to play.

 

Instead, the GM is looking for a reasonable cost to say to a player, don't worry about all the noise, once a turn, if you need to deflect to save an innocent, you can do that, even if the RAW say you cant.

 

It sounds like the player is long-standing and (unlike many HERO tinkerers) could not care less about having a better understanding of the rules/mechanics - she just wants to play a superhero.  The suggestions above, in the rules, clever uses of the mechanics might approximate the game effects but it would probably ruin the experience for the player.

 

Also, if those do, really, approximate the effect and have a quantifiable cost, then surely that is the cost to suggest, even if the power is, presentationally,  different.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

If I had a SPD 5 character and buy +1 SPD and hold until end of phase, instead of acting on 3,5,8,10,12, I act on 3,5,7,9,11,12.

 

I reckon I concede initiative on 3 and 5 because, by necessity, I need to be reactive.  But then I move on odd segments, which probably provides me with a small advantage, and, of course, the additional action that I paid points for.

 

I would find this frustrating to play because I prefer being proactive.

 

I suspect many players would.  However, if the style of character you want to play is one who is focused on caution in combat to protect bystanders, that more reactive style may (and I stress MAY) be acceptable. 

 

An alternative approach for the specific "want to be able to deflect" would be to act at DEX 1, Segment 2, which is just before that 5 SPD character could have acted.  Throughout Segments 3 and 4, you can then watch the flow of combat to either Abort your Phase 4 or use it to Deflect, moving at DEX 1 on Phase 4 if nothing comes up.  While this feels very reactive, if the alternative was a 5 SPD, you would have been potentially aborting at any time in Segments 1 and 2 and, if you wanted to be proactive in Segment 3, risking an inability to react/abort for the rest of the segment. You'd be Holding the Segment 12 action to keep your options open in Segment 1, though.

 

That costs 10 points.  How much is it worth to be able to act at your DEX on Segment 3, then abort later in Segment 3 and have no further ability to react for the rest of the turn?

 

2 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

As for aborting to deflect, if I have just acted on 7, I cannot abort my next action to deflect on 7, right? This relies on the player being aware of the point when one phase becomes another and when one segment ends and becomes another.  That is a tiring way to play.

 

The "end of segment" issue is problematic to me as well - no one runs around saying "LAST CALL FOR SEGMENT 7".  That's a compromise for smoother game play, of course. I'm not sure that telling the reactive player "Segment 2, DEX 1" so they can act just before Segment 3 starts is any worse than "OK, you can have one Abort per turn between your action and the end of the segment, or any other time - so if you use than in Segment 5, we need to track it right to the end of the turn as you can't do it again until next turn."  Of course, you could Abort after moving in Segment 12, then Abort again in Segment 1, right?  Something that extreme wouldn't be useful all that often, of course.

 

2 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

Instead, the GM is looking for a reasonable cost to say to a player, don't worry about all the noise, once a turn, if you need to deflect to save an innocent, you can do that, even if the RAW say you cant.

 

It sounds like the player is long-standing and (unlike many HERO tinkerers) could not care less about having a better understanding of the rules/mechanics - she just wants to play a superhero.  The suggestions above, in the rules, clever uses of the mechanics might approximate the game effects but it would probably ruin the experience for the player.

 

Also, if those do, really, approximate the effect and have a quantifiable cost, then surely that is the cost to suggest, even if the power is, presentationally,  different.

 

One option, whether house rule or with a cost, would be to remove the "no Aborts in the same segment you moved" restriction.  You move at DEX 29, Segment 3 with your 5 SPD and need to act fast to save a civilian, so you Abort your Ph 5 action and won't get another move (Abort or not) until DEX 29, Ph 8. This seems no more damaging to the game than allowing a person to attack, then move, an approach we have played without anything breaking the game.

 

As for setting a cost, if +1 SPD would allow you to do all this plus so much more, is it fair to set a more restrictive (one free abort only to deflect) ability at a higher price?  If we're slapping a +2 advantage to +1 SPD (so 30) to get an Abort out of the SPD chart once per turn, and a -2 Limitation (only to deflect), so 10 points, is that more valuable than a 6 SPD which could have simulated that for a more tactically-minded player (who could also use that extra phase for a lot more - e.g. "oh, he's stunned/halved DCV?  I'll take advantage of that 0.1 DEX later!)?

 

No answers - just thoughts to consider.