Need some 5e rules help

[Sketchpad]

5 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I think the difference us whether you want to do it reliably or not.  Whether you want to gave to roll dice. The power I suggested would work reliably unless someone sought to intervene.

 

Personally, if it wasn't so much of a pain in the ass to do, I would gave every character have an SFX based VPP, where they could do anything their SFX justified.  That would feel superheroes, if it wasn't for the constant calculations on whether I could fly at that speed, shrugging off bullets while carrying the ark of the covenant....

 

See, this is where the Power Skill comes in for me. When making power stunts, I tend to have "stunt powers" cost extra END and RSR to perform. If they get too abusive (like using several times in a row), I require them to take the stunt as a new power. It's worked well over the years, and allows the players to test their heroes' powers in new directions. 

 

3 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

It needs to be built and paid for if this is something the character plans on using on a regular basis and having it work reliably.  How to build it also depends on what the player wants to do with it.  If this is just something that the character might do once or twice in a campaign it probably does not need to be built.  If this is going to be a regular thing the character does, it needs to be defined.  

 

If all you want to do is to grab a single hostage, the grab by maneuver will allow you to do it but has penalties that make it difficult to count on.  The grab by maneuver takes a -3 OCV and -4 DCV, which puts the character at a real disadvantage.  By spending 5 points for a flying grab, it reduces the penalties to a -2 OCV and -1 DCV and Gives the character +10 STR to grab with.  So, a character with a flying grab can probably safely get two hostages with only a -1 to his DCV.   Using TK or Teleport as an attack would allow the character to save multiple targets without exposing the character to much danger.  Like I said earlier it depends on what the player wants to be able to do.  

 

For me, I'd allow something like "grabbing X and removing them from the field" as a new maneuver that doesn't need a power structure. IMHO, it's no different from performing other combat maneuvers like a Move By or Multi-Attack. Yes, it should have mods, but I don't believe that it should cost points. It's too much of a staple in the supers genre, which should mean that anyone can use it freely. Mind you, your campaign may vary, I just respectfully disagree with it costing points.

[Gauntlet]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

True, but the real benefit is it improves your chance of being able to pull the hostage free if they are being held.  That is what the extra STR does allow you to do.     

 

Actually, it does not. It only gives you the benefit of holding someone and keeping them from escaping, It does not give you any extra STR to be able to pull someone from another grab.

[LoneWolf]

The grab weapon option allows you to grab   accessible focus or other held or carried objects.  A hostage would be considered a held or carried object. The grab weapon states it uses the normal grab rules, which means you have to make a STR vs STR roll to gain control of the object. The extra STR from a martial grab maneuver applies to the STR vs STR roll to gain control of the held object (hostage). 

 

The rules for a grab by state that it is usually used for grabbing focus but can be used to grab people.  Since the flying grab is basically a martial version of the grab by it should be able to be used in the same way and be allowed to grab a hostage.  
 

[Ninja-Bear]

10 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Actually, it does not. It only gives you the benefit of holding someone and keeping them from escaping, It does not give you any extra STR to be able to pull someone from another grab.

Quite true. However you CAN define the Strength as Only to Pull away or Only to Carry. That’s in building Maneuvers Rule, or you can have BOTH in the same maneuver but you have to pay for each use of Strength.

 

You could just just buy extra STR X Only for Takeaways and carrying people (-1/4) , Only with Flying Grab (-1). 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Ninja-Bear

[Duke Bushido]

Thanks, Folks;

 

I appreciate the help.  I have the information need: there is no rule saying the grabbed target is required to take damage.

 

 

That is all I needed; thank you.

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

2 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

That is all I needed; thank you.

 

You should count yourself lucky that it has only gone two pages...

[Gauntlet]

And let's go for at least THREE because just because Duke Bushido got what he needed doesn't mean we have to stop!!! 🤩

[Rails]

Isn't three pages a single normal Duke post?  🙂

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

And let's go for at least THREE because just because Duke Bushido got what he needed doesn't mean we have to stop!!! 🤩

 

 

Oh, by all means, continue!

 

I just wanted to take a moment to express my gratitude for the double-check from those more up-to-speed on 5e than am I.

 

And just to pick off some unaddressed things:

 

The current build is 40 STR TK, AOE (special, to be hammered out with the GM, but currently pricing against "any area"), must be flying, must be touching.  For what it is worth, in an older edition, we would not have required AOE to pick up several people; just repeated targeting rolls until you hit your weight limit.  However, it is my recolllection that one or more of the Long editions _does_ require it to scoop up groups or large objects, so I am allowing for it in the build should the GM require it.  If he does not, I will bump the build back up to fifty points and cut the END Cost a bit.

 

The AOE is, with approval (should know tomorrow or shortly after; that is when I will submit the character sheet), to represent a sort of "chain  of touch: five people holding hands?  He touches one of them, and all are affected (up to his maximum carry).

 

Why TK instead of Flight UAO?

 

The very reason I asked about the grab by / damage relationship:  if he is travelling at 40", when he touches them, they are also travelling at 40".  There is no need to fuss with acceleration, skill levels UAO, or anything else, and I can fit that nicely into "my power protects them 

From the tidal and sheer forces that should rip them apart," aimply because the rules do not mandate that damage anyway.

 

 

His power is "sharing his ability to fly through touch," but the _mechanics_ are TK because they better serve the needs of the build in this case.  I dont have to purchase multiple instances of highly-limited shares flight or make sixteen attack rolls.  Additionally, TK comes with added things that custom instances of Flight do not, such as a mass limit and the ability to "gift flight" to stones, rocks, pedestrian bridges, etc.  I likes the idea or a mass limit, and I liked the idea of being able to scoop a car out of danger in a hurry without having to fuss with seatbelts, doors, etc.

 

Grab maneuver / martial Arts / Skill Levels / maneuvers:

 

There may have been a misunderstanding:  he does not have to _grab_ them; he has to _touch_ them.  Certainly there will be relevant attack rolls to "hit" then with the Telekinesis.  I stated at some point that if the GM is more comfortable with it, I was willing to treat "touching someone on the fly" as a Grab Maneuver-- all the built- modifiers, etc.  I am extremely flexible about this, and willing to work with him on how he thinks a drive-by touching should work. 

 

Sorry for the confusion.

 

As to "an attack action ends your turn:"

 

Yes; it does.  But it does not stop your momentum.  You no longer move your mini on the board, but you are still moving X meters per Phase.  Someone wants to shoot at you, they have to overcome the movement penalties.  Someone hits you head-on, they take damage that includes dice derived from your momentum.  At the start of your next phase, the GM will want to know if you are "still moving at x speed," or if you would like to make some changes.  Your movement does not actually stop; your mini's movement does.

 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

@Duke Bushido, I’d thought you would’ve made an elastic type character. You know, since you’re stretching your self to play a different edition. 🤪 Sorry but I couldn’t help that bad pun. Have fun.
 

And remember this for your GM, Steve Long told me he’d never send the game police if you alter the game. So as commendable it is that he’s sticking to RAW, if you guys truly want to change a rule, then by all means, do it.

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

. So as commendable it is that he’s sticking to RAW, if you guys truly want to change a rule, then by all means, do it.

 

 

It is a comfort thing for him, I think.

 

As I understand it, he only bought the book a few months ago, read it a couple of times, and is five or six sessions into his first campaign.  It isnt so much that he is a rules absolutist (I am told; i haven't actually played with them yet) as much as it is "we are sticking by the rules until I am comfortable making judgment calls."

 

So I am not expecting _much_, but Dude!  Forever GM since 88 or so?  I will leap through a hoop or two (even uf I have to set them on fire myself!) To be _player_ once in a while. 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[Hugh Neilson]

12 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

The AOE is, with approval (should know tomorrow or shortly after; that is when I will submit the character sheet), to represent a sort of "chain  of touch: five people holding hands?  He touches one of them, and all are affected (up to his maximum carry).

 

Why TK instead of Flight UAO?

 

The very reason I asked about the grab by / damage relationship:  if he is travelling at 40", when he touches them, they are also travelling at 40".  There is no need to fuss with acceleration, skill levels UAO, or anything else, and I can fit that nicely into "my power protects them from the tidal and sheer forces that should rip them apart," simply because the rules do not mandate that damage anyway.

 

I have to admit that, reading the initial posts of “what?  Instant acceleration?  Why, it would tear them apart”, I was envisioning a campaign Session Zero much like:

 

GM:  OK, tell us a bit about your characters. 

 

[Duke, of course, is so polite and unwilling to hog the spotlight that he waits for everyone else to go first.]

 

Player 1:  My character is the last survivor of an alien civilization.  He’s super-strong, super-fast and super-tough. And he can fly and shoot laser beams out of his eyes!

 

Players and GM Chorus: Super-cool!

 

Player 2: My character was altered in a strange accident, and can now become a being of living flames.  She can attack with the flames, they protect her from damage and they even make her lighter than air so she can fly.

 

Players and GM Chorus: Marvelous-cool!

 

Player 3: Hey, my character was changed in a strange accident too.  He was attending a science display when he was accidentally bitten by an irradiated, DNA-altered Bat!  He has all the powers of a bat – proportionate strength and speed, bat-sense and he built artificial wings that allow him to fly! Now he fights crime while attending high school, your Friendly Neighbourhood Bat-Man!

 

Players and GM Chorus: Double-homage-cool!

 

Player 4: My character is just a normal guy, but he was trained by an ancient cabal of wizards. He wears an array of mystical artifacts given to him by the ancient cabal, and can warp reality itself with his mighty spells and mystical knowledge.

 

Players and GM Chorus: Magic-cool!

 

Duke: My character can fly at incredible speeds, and is capable of imparting that speed to others at will, through direct or indirect physical combat.  [Awaits Speedy-cool response.]

 

Player 1: But what about the physics of high velocities?

 

Player 3: Wouldn’t that rapid acceleration tear someone apart?

 

GM: We’ll have to break out the physics textbooks to ensure that these abilities are treated with full realism and scientific accuracy – how else can we possibly pretend to believe a man can fly?

 

4 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

It is a comfort thing for him, I think.

 

As I understand it, he only bought the book a few months ago, read it a couple of times, and is five or six sessions into his first campaign.  It isnt so much that he is a rules absolutist (I am told; i haven't actually played with them yet) as much as it is "we are sticking by the rules until I am comfortable making judgment calls."

 

So I am not expecting _much_, but Dude!  Forever GM since 88 or so?  I will leap through a hoop or two (even uf I have to set them on fire myself!) To be _player_ once in a while. 

 

 

 

I am a big fan of starting any new game/system with its rules as written. Until I see how it plays, and integrates with all of the other rules, assessing the impact of some tweak is dicy at best.

[LoneWolf]

@Duke Bushido enjoy being a player for a change.  

 

How you build the character does not really matter as long as the GM and the player are good with it.  For me one of the best parts of the Hero System is that it allows you to build things that work the way you want them.  

 

Sometimes other people may not understand your concept so may think your power should operate differently.   My initial impression of what Duke wanted was the ability of a speedster to snatch things (including people) out of the grasp of others.  To me that suggests a grab, but the standard grab has some problems, so I suggested a flying grab.  It turns out that is not what Duke wanted.   
 

[Duke Bushido]

5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I have to admit that, reading the initial posts of “what?  Instant acceleration?  Why, it would tear them apart”, I was envisioning a campaign Session Zero much like:

 

[Snip]

 

can fly.

 

 

 

Players and GM Chorus: Marvelous-cool!

 

 

Player 1: But what about the physics of high velocities?

 

Player 3: Wouldn’t that rapid acceleration tear someone apart?

 

Gonna level with you: I learned to think about that stuff here on this board (the responses to which you allude are my examples.   ).

 

Frankly, I was _much_ happier when when I didnt think at all!   

 

However, I was curious as to if there was a rule in 5e, so that I could prepare the character properly.  Given what I have heard of and feom the GM, I do not expect him to add rules for it just because it is realistically possible. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 – how else can we possibly pretend to believe a man can fly?

 

Yep; that is a common example I use when people suggest "there should be a rule X because of realism."   

 

 

5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I am a big fan of starting any new game/system with its rules as written. Until I see how it plays, and integrates with all of the other rules, assessing the impact of some tweak is dicy at best.

 

 

Agreed.  The added security of training wheels can be mocked, but it cannot be understated or undervalued.

 

 

5 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

@Duke Bushido enjoy being a player for a change.  

 

Thanks!   Now I _have_ been playing 

In an on-and-off Traveller game, but I haven't been a Champions _Player_ in a very long time, so....   Looking forward to it!

 

 

5 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

How you build the character does not really matter as long as the GM and the player are good with it.  

 

Agreed.  Even after six editions, there are still people who have difficulty separating SFX from Mechanics.  Once it clicks, though, you can do pretty much anything.  My goal with the questions here was to be prepared to modify my build for any possible rules interpretation the GM might come up with.  

 

For the record, character submission has been delayed until next Sunday; the GM has had a family thing come up (evidently they lost some folks in 9/11, and have a reunion / memorial every year.

 

 

5 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

My initial impression of what Duke wanted was the ability of a speedster to snatch things (including people) out of the grasp of others.  To me that suggests a grab, but the standard grab has some problems, so I suggested a flying grab.  It turns out that is not what Duke wanted.   
 

 

 

That is nothing to fret about; given that I have no experience with this GM, it is entirely possible that I will be using Grab anyway.  So, per the ideas generated in this thread, I have prepared for that, too.

 

Thanks again. 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

I think the general rule (and this can be genre appropriate) should be, have I seen this in the source material? For Super heroes, comics and early cartoons is the default. So flying 100 mph and grabbing someone is fine UNLESS for some reason you want more realism.

[Gauntlet]

3 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I think the general rule (and this can be genre appropriate) should be, have I seen this in the source material? For Super heroes, comics and early cartoons is the default. So flying 100 mph and grabbing someone is fine UNLESS for some reason you want more realism.

 

Definitely true, even through Hero can be utilized for a superheroic game or a standard game doesn't mean that all the rules have to be the same.