Stronghold Prison Populations

[Steve]

In looking at Stronghold, a grab bag mix of personalities of the superpowered, it makes me wonder if a different approach is warranted.

 

Consider a super criminal who robs banks. While powerful, they aren’t a significant danger to society at large. I’m thinking the likes of Shrinker or Ogre. They may loot and rob, but they aren’t going to kill a bunch of people or destroy a city.

 

Then consider the members of Eurostar. They are superpowered terrorists. They act to topple governments or hold cities hostage.

 

Should they all go into the same prison facility? Would it be better to segregate the thieves and robbers from the really terrifying villains and put those terrorist types of villains in a deep, dark hole somewhere?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Honestly?  I prefer to just not think about what happens to supervillains after they are caught.  The multiple types of prison in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes was cool, but I just don't even wanna know.  They are defeated, and that's enough.  They come back eventually, and need to be defeated again.  Anything else results in some really depressing, awful stuff like putting villains into an enforced coma or locking them in an energy field at the bottom of the ocean, etc.

 

That said I am looking closely at Stronghold to redo the Escape from Stronghold module, so it does come up.  As I understand it there are multiple layers of security where bad guys are kept.  If you are just Johnny Gadget, you can put them in general population in a normal prison.  If they have powers, they are put in the prison with the power dampers, and treated like regular guys.  And the worst are put into the super high security area.

Edited February 7 by Christopher R Taylor

[Lord Liaden]

Exactly. Stronghold prisoners are ranked according to Escape Risk (Nominal to Extreme), and Danger (Blue to Red). The security measures taken, including freedom to mingle socially in the prison, and the technology applied to them, are governed by their classification, which is subject to revision based on their behavior.

 

The Stronghold source book goes into considerable detail on how Stronghold is run and the life of the prisoners there.

[Duke Bushido]

Our own,super- prison has different locations because there is a difference between "powerful"and "dangerous."

 

You can give a 12d6 RKA to one guy, and Satan himself,couldnt make him use it on a living, breathing thing, no matter how many bank vaults he peels open with it.

 

  You can give it to another guy and he's going straight to the water tower, so to speak.

 

Unless an adventure is actually set at the prison, ir moving among the inmates is a necessary part of the adventure, we don't really spell it all out.  For us, the inner workings of the prison system isn't really why we spent an hour building characters.

 

We kind of skin through with "X is in Lockdown" or "Y went to State" or "Z went to orbit (we have a beanstalk that exists for world-breaker class villains.  If all else fails, the stalk can be blown and hurl the contents into the sun ot deep space, buying at least some time).

 

Villains- regardless of power level- who aren't likely to be a serioua threat to other inmates or staff tend to  get fitted with suppression booots and gauntlets and sent into the regular prison system- we figure with supers so over the place, every state has at least one wing or building with preparations to hold such prisoners.

 

It is a long-running gag in our campaigns that the hardest thing to lock up is a gadgeteer--  not a gadget user, mind you, but that build-gizmos-on-the-fly, gadget pool with Focus of Convenience and gadget or inventor skills pushing (or breaking) 20 or less...

 

_these_ are the guys that just don't stay locked up.  Firewing has fewer guards than Gizmoid! 

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

Yeah, that's what Stronghold is about, tailoring the circumstances to both the power and the temperament of the prisoner. The difference is that the source book provides the option for adventures set in Stronghold, e.g. the heroes are in the prison -- escorting a particularly dangerous criminal there, interrogating an inmate for information, temporarily supplementing the guards or upgrading the security systems, etc. -- when a breakout attempt occurs. Or, the heroes are framed for a crime (or really committed one) and actually sentenced to Stronghold, and perhaps have to plan their own escape while dealing with the rest of the prison population.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 Or, the heroes are framed for a crime (or really committed one) and actually sentenced to Stronghold, and perhaps have to plan their own escape while dealing with the rest of the prison population.

 

That is, in a way, the plot concept I have for the Escape from Stronghold adventure, but what has jammed me up is trying to figure out how much of Stronghold I need to put in.  I do not want to just duplicate huge chunks out of the 5th edition version, even though its good, because it would be way too much setup.  But you have to have enough to actually, you know, escape.  It was getting too big so I have to pare back a lot and keep the essence of how the place runs and is structured, because you cannot expect a GM to buy Stronghold just to run an adventure.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Honestly?  I prefer to just not think about what happens to supervillains after they are caught. 

 

 

Yep, that right there.

 

 

Now everyone os going to play tjeit wowm game, amd that level is detail is fun for you and yours, then by all means go for it.  Have a great time.

 

It just isnt what we go in for, so I don't have much advice. 

 

 

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

That is, in a way, the plot concept I have for the Escape from Stronghold adventure, but what has jammed me up is trying to figure out how much of Stronghold I need to put in.  I do not want to just duplicate huge chunks out of the 5th edition version, even though its good, because it would be way too much setup.  But you have to have enough to actually, you know, escape.  It was getting too big so I have to pare back a lot and keep the essence of how the place runs and is structured, because you cannot expect a GM to buy Stronghold just to run an adventure.

 

Another source you might look at for inspiration is the adventure, "Murder in Stronghold," from the 4E book, Champions Presents #2. Although the two editions of Stronghold are substantially different, that adventure may give you a sense of how much background you need to incorporate to make your own adventure work in conjunction with what's already published.

[Lord Liaden]

BTW the 4E version of Stronghold was a less humane place. There were no supertech "power negators" shutting down the prisoners' powers. Consequently, each prisoner spent nearly all their time in their cell, specifically tailored to counter any attempt to escape using their known powers. They had no access to recreational or social space.

 

FWIW had I ever gotten to run scenarios using any of the other nations' super-prisons mentioned in 5E Stronghold, I'd have used that as the map/template for the Chinese and Russian facilities.

Edited February 8 by Lord Liaden

[Steve]

Power negators have a significant effect on the setting because the lack of them changes things quite a bit.

 

What do the authorities do if they can’t negate powers?

 

In regards to Stronghold, I like the idea of having multiple locations around. There could even be older versions of Stronghold that lack power negators and would have a different feel than a facility that does.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I cannot remember all of them but I liked the ideas in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes.  They had that cube on its corner in the Nevada desert, the shrunken prison in Ant Man's lab, an undersea one, one in the Negative Zone, one floating as an island, and one other.  I think Tony Stark designed all but the one Ant Man controls.

[Lord Liaden]

And several of them, particularly the Ant Hill and the Negative Zone prison, showed the peril of relying too much on one clever gimmick to provide most of the security. That gimmick gets damaged, bypassed, or corrupted, much chaos can result.

 

Stronghold also suffers from that vulnerability, its power negators and hot sleep chambers, which need a steady supply of energy. But at least Stronghold has multiple backup measures in case those devices fail.

Edited February 8 by Lord Liaden

[death tribble]

You also have to look at who built the prison and why.

The money motivation and the political ideologies of the constructors or financiers behind it could have a substantial impact.

This leads to people having access to ways to get to the prison and out of it.

I have several prison books like the original Escape from Stronghold, the modern Stronghold, Lockdown for M+M and Grammercy Island for Heroes Unlimited. There is also another one set on the reopened Alcatraz.

 

But the point about the different levels needed to look after prisoners is valid. Look at for example the villains in the 1960s Batman series as opposed to the villains in the later Batman films. They would need different levels of observation and restraint

[Duke Bushido]

11 hours ago, Steve said:

Power negators have a significant effect on the setting because the lack of them changes things quite a bit.

 

What do the authorities do if they can’t negate powers?

 

In regards to Stronghold, I like the idea of having multiple locations around. There could even be older versions of Stronghold that lack power negators and would have a different feel than a facility that does.

 

Yep.

 

My setting doesnt have _true_ power negation.  From our point of view as a game group, that iant the sort of tech we want to become widely available.

 

Our "power negators" actually drain END, keeping the villains (or victims) at a constant 1-6 END.  Yes, there are arguments in the public as to whether or not this is humane, etc, etc, which we work into the political backgeound now and again-

 

Now before stating "but Drain: END is wholly insufficient--"

 

We know That.  We kind if want it that way.  For the vast majority of dangerous villains in our universe, it works:l.  Remember that we play 2e.  A 10d6 EB at zero END is 137 pts.  Zero END isn't something you see a lot of in our world.  Reduced?  Certainly, but rarely zero.

 

And for those folks who _do_ have a way around an END drain- well, that's part of the suspense, ultimately.

 

But again, we really don't bother with a lot of detail about prison or court and such: we just wanna stop the bad guys,

 

 

[Grailknight]

Shouldn't that be 100 points. 5 to 2 to 1 to 0 should only be a +1 total Advantage.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Stronghold also suffers from that vulnerability, its power negators and hot sleep chambers, which need a steady supply of energy. But at least Stronghold has multiple backup measures in case those devices fail.

 

In terms of narrative, that's useful though.  The story needs a way for things to go wrong and people to escape for the genre to work.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

Shouldn't that be 100 points. 5 to 2 to 1 to 0 should only be a +1 total Advantage.

 For 4e and up; yes.

 

For 1-3e; no.

 

Though I see I posted a bad number.  The actual cost should be 112.

 

10d6, in the early editions, is 10 END.  A +1/4 cuts that in half:

10/2= 5END.

 

Then you keep halving at+1/4 each lick:

 

10/2

5/2

2.5/2

1.25/2

.625.

 

.625 is still not less than half a pip, so .625/2 = .3125.  Now we are less than half a pip, which by the rulea is the point at which we can declare the END cost to be zero.

 

Five halvings at plus one quarter each is +1.25.  The original 50 pt cost times 2.25 is 112.5, or 112 pts.

 

This gets even uglier uglier if there arw other Advantages on the power, as reduced END is figured after everytjing else, since you need the total END calculations from other Advantages before you can start.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

In terms of narrative, that's useful though.  The story needs a way for things to go wrong and people to escape for the genre to work.

 

Exactly. Infallibility and perfection are conflict-killers, ultimately boring.

[Duke Bushido]

Expanding on this:

 

Take a 4d6 RKA and add +1/2 advantage that adds to END-- let's say an AOE.

 

2e END cost for this 90 pt power is 18.

 

It takes 6 divisions to bring that to under a hald pip, so zero end would be a +1.5 advantage, bringing the total cost to 225 pts.

 

Now 2e characters start at 250 pts.

 

You can see what we dont have a whole lot of zero END powers (though most evergine has a small bit of their power at zero END, just in case).

 

We see a lot of 1/4 END, aimply because it costa +1/2 in advantage; the same thing later editions are paying to get 1/2 END.

 

 

[Sketchpad]

20 hours ago, Steve said:

In looking at Stronghold, a grab bag mix of personalities of the superpowered, it makes me wonder if a different approach is warranted.

 

Consider a super criminal who robs banks. While powerful, they aren’t a significant danger to society at large. I’m thinking the likes of Shrinker or Ogre. They may loot and rob, but they aren’t going to kill a bunch of people or destroy a city.

 

Then consider the members of Eurostar. They are superpowered terrorists. They act to topple governments or hold cities hostage.

 

Should they all go into the same prison facility? Would it be better to segregate the thieves and robbers from the really terrifying villains and put those terrorist types of villains in a deep, dark hole somewhere?

 

Honestly, from my understanding, that's not far from how prisons work IRL. You can be a burglar and be in the same jail as a serial killer or spree bomber. The jail itself is supposed to be prepared with the systems and employees that it uses for containment and, hopefully, rehabilitation. 

 

Mind you, there are also different levels of prisons, ranging from Minimum to High Security. If you're a one time thief and get caught, you probably aren't going to something like Stronghold. But a career thief that can phase? Yup. He's going to the supermax.  However, villains like Eurostar I would image going to something more like an UNTIL secure facility, as they'll want to question and isolate members. 

 

In the campaign I run, there are several prisons that specialize in superhuman criminals. Each is in a remote area and have superhero staff, as well as well trained (and vetted) guards. It usually doesn't come up where the villains go unless the adventure needs the players to know. I once ran a game where a few of the players were surveying a base and a breakout happened. They ended up having to defeat one of their big-bads to restore order, and hunt down a few C-listers that made an escape. Fun stuff.

[Steve]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

In terms of narrative, that's useful though.  The story needs a way for things to go wrong and people to escape for the genre to work.

There’s a balance to be struck in how easy it is to escape. Make it too easy, and prisons get laughable. Too hard and there are no repeat visits from a supervillain. Both setups affect the setting feel.

 

It also matters who is getting out. Scorpia escaping means people are going to die in Eurostar’s next scheme. Foxbat escaping means something silly is going to happen with his next caper.

 

If things are on the harder side for escaping, then a mass breakout event seems like the more dramatic option. If easier, then very few get out at a time and are sent back soon after.

 

If a mass breakout event of multiple terrorist types happens, that’s scary as they are the type to wreak havoc on a city or country. If Pulsar or Bluejay escapes, a bank or jewelry store is going to be robbed.

 

Some villains may also be a masked identity that gets passed on to new owners. The Green Goblin is an example of this with all the different goblin types that have shown up since Norman Osborn’s first outing.

[Grailknight]

6 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 For 4e and up; yes.

 

For 1-3e; no.

 

Though I see I posted a bad number.  The actual cost should be 112.

 

10d6, in the early editions, is 10 END.  A +1/4 cuts that in half:

10/2= 5END.

 

Then you keep halving at+1/4 each lick:

 

10/2

5/2

2.5/2

1.25/2

.625.

 

.625 is still not less than half a pip, so .625/2 = .3125.  Now we are less than half a pip, which by the rulea is the point at which we can declare the END cost to be zero.

 

Five halvings at plus one quarter each is +1.25.  The original 50 pt cost times 2.25 is 112.5, or 112 pts.

 

This gets even uglier uglier if there arw other Advantages on the power, as reduced END is figured after everytjing else, since you need the total END calculations from other Advantages before you can start.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, I see where we differ, we rounded at each step and you're not rounding until you get below 1/2. A small difference but it does bring in one extra step.

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

Ok, I see where we differ, we rounded at each step and you're not rounding until you get below 1/2. A small difference but it does bring in one extra step.

 

 

Right, but even that was the rule at the time.  It was ignore,by a lot od people, but it was still the rule: you cut the END in half.  You could stop there, and if it broke at .5 or less, round down; otherwise round up.  But if you were doing multiple functions, you rounded only when you were done.

 

In the examples we are using- about 50 pts- there is little difference, but there are other numbers, aome of which will have remainders with every splitting.  If you round at each step, you can remive (or add, if you are unfortunate) one or two additional halvings to get the total to under 0.5.

 

 

 

[death tribble]

The other thing to consider is Location, Location, Location.

Apart from the published materials there are also ones used in film to show that escape would be difficult if not highly improbable.

The Men in Black series had a prison on the moon.

Guardians of the Galaxy had a prison way out in space.

Escape Plan has the prison on a ship at sea.

Dungeons and Dragons: Honour Among Thieves had the prison in a frozen waste

Papillion uses the real French prison of Devil's Island

Others have included a prison in orbit around the Earth, a prison on a repurposed submarine, on a tropical island but the middle of the desert is also an option although I cannot recall a specific film which this is used

Then there are the war films like the Great Escape, a Man Escaped, Escape to Victory, the Mackenzie Break, the Wooden Horse,  Who Goes Next ? and Stalag 17

And real life and fictional escapes like Midnight Express, Escape from Alcatraz and the Shawshank Redemption

[Jkeown]

In another reply that starts with "In my campaign..." 

 

In my campaign, we have Lockdown for normal bad guys. Huge doors, Turtle-Armor(tm) guards, blaster cannons on towers, you get the idea.

 

Then there are a number of lonely dimensions where the mysterious Exile sends the really awful villains. No one knows what happens to them. I think maybe a Champions in 3D or Galactic Champions game might answer it. (Or me, sooner, if I get off my lazy ass at some point). For galactic threats, the Negotiator can be called on to punish the cosmically naughty. 

 

In other punishment-adjacent stuff: 

 

Ravenous supervillains committing mass murder led to Retropolis Justice Sandra Ilona handing down the first ever Instant Death Penalty. The appeal against the space-going meta Disasteroid went all the way to the Supreme Court, where Chief Justice Captain Winterbloom found herself the deciding vote. Instant Death became a legal reality, much to the chagrin of many (meta)human rights groups. Disasteroid was killed by Element Zero injection the very next day, August 29th, 2032.