Hermit Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Everyonce in awhile, a 'so and so' vs 'so and so' thread comes up, and someone always says the darker character would win because "he doesn't fight fair." It's quickly pointed out that villains don't either, and this is an utterly BS excuse to claim folks would win. Rightly I think, but then I'm a cap fan However, has anyone run/GMed a villain that DOES play by the rules? Who demands that things always be 'sporting' as it were, and refuses to take the easy path to victory if it means tarnishing his ethics/style? Firewing can come close, but even he has that 'must win at any cost' situation to counter balance. How did your gentleman Jim type work out if you did use one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Lawful Evil? Sure Just had to say that. Yes. I have a splinter group of russian mercenaries in my game who all use powered armor. Among them, there's a five-man unit that only do fair one-on-one combat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Seeman Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 I really have no comment on the subject. I just wanted to say that I find your use of my initials rather offensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Absolutely. When you site ben, use his full name. It should read: "this is an utterly Ben-Seeman excuse..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Yes, my campaign's immortal megavillain, the Emerald Mage, is like that. He not only once broke off combat with our hero team MidGuard to Heal one of his minions who'd been critically wounded, he attended the MidGuard leader's summer 2003 wedding (The social event of 2003; guests included the kings of Denmark and Norway and a considerable number of other notables.) to Kathy Ireland as an invited guest, along with his chief acolyte, who is a close personal friend of Ms. Ireland's. Currently he rules Columbia as the legally (and honestly!) elected president. It's a more than slightly complicated relationship, but a whole lot more fun that just another "shoot on sight" villain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rechan Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 I paticularly love Gentleman Jim types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMan Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 I haven't every played in a game with a scrupulously honest villian, and I'm kind of surprised at that. Literature is full of examples. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted January 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Originally posted by Ben Seeman I really have no comment on the subject. I just wanted to say that I find your use of my initials rather offensive. Reperations are in the mail... really Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Madame Yin the evil Yin chi Taoist immortal (Loooong story) has a main enforcer named Crane who is a nicer than nice fair play even when you cheat kind of guy...he is almost always the most hated villian ever....players Hate being called a cheater...extra when it's true! (Crane serves Madame Yin due to an oath he feels he must honor) Honorable bad guys is very animae, so thats a good place to look for insperation.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamamura Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Was in a scenario with a very noble villain, but one of the player sneaked attacked him and killed him. Terrible when the heroes are nastier then the villains. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlSagan Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Righteousness vs. Self-Righteousness Originally posted by yamamura Terrible when the heroes are nastier then the villains. I have observed in real life that the self-righteous assurance of one's own holiness can sometimes give one the freedom to do some truly nasty things. After, one can always rationalize that it is in a good cause. Quote on Lenin's statue in Red Square (1920): Workers of the world - Unite! Quote on Lenin's statue in Red Square (1990): Workers of the world - Forgive Me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 I have used these myself but cannot recall details at present. When I remember I will add to this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klytus Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by DocMan I haven't every played in a game with a scrupulously honest villian, and I'm kind of surprised at that. Literature is full of examples. Doc Maybe if you all took some time to get to know my villians rather than killing them off (D&D and Vampire) or shoving them in jail (Champions) on the first encounter, you might meet a few of them. On a different note, while literature may be full of examples of "honest" villians, they are few and far between. Heck, modern society has a paucity of honest heroes, never mind the villians. The whole point of being a villian (to my mind) is that you get to do what you want, when you want, and how you want regardless of the ethical or moral repercussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamamura Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Being a fan of anime/manga, you see alot of these type of villains floating around. The key in designing them, is to give them a reason for working for the bad guy or one to be a bad guy. After all taking over the world, so no one will suffer and peace will exist on the Earth can be quite a noble goal in the Gentleman Jim's mind and he is not about to dirty his reputation by not living up to his own standards. Also if a "Jim" was born in the wrong country that is basically a bad place, his sense of loyalty will cause him to fight. This is not mentioning debts of honour to a master villian. On page 19 of GURPS mecha, Mr. Pulver has an excellant example of how to introduce a noble warrior, such that the players knows he is noble. To paraphase (and making it Super-heroic), the player has just been in a terrible battle, his cape and costume are ripped and he is limping home for some R&R. On a nearby roof top he spots a lone figure with a bellowing cape and mask that hides his face. The figure speaks, "We will meet again when you have time to recover." Later at the Hero base, our young fighter discover that the man on the building is wanted and famous in Europe. This of course sets the stage for the hero to give the villain the same dues. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlestaff Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 I did play in a campaign with villains that were interested in fair fights, but only with heroes that afforded them the same courtesy. When he went one-on-one with my character, he was never rude and wouldn't take advantage of "unfair" opportunities that he didn't create with his skill and abilities (such as my character being struck from behind by a stray EB). However, he would take down another character in our group who would call him names and fight "dirty" (and justified it by saying 'well, he's a bad guy'). It was always fun watching the other player receive his comeuppance. As for courteous villains with interesting motivations, the first character that came to mind while reading this thread was Inigo Montoya from The Princess Bride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlSagan Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Inigo Montoya I liked Montoya. Not only did he have a sense of humor, he must have had a pretty goodly number of points in Regeneration! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klytus Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by Battlestaff As for courteous villains with interesting motivations, the first character that came to mind while reading this thread was Inigo Montoya from The Princess Bride. I never saw Inigo as a villain, though. The only reason he fought Westley was because he was being paid, and I just do not (in most cases) see mercenaries as villians. Opponents, yes, but not "villians" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMan Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by Klytus Maybe if you all took some time to get to know my villians rather than killing them off (D&D and Vampire) or shoving them in jail (Champions) on the first encounter, you might meet a few of them. Actually, it's probably a statement to my poor memory. I'd be shocked and surprised to find out that we killed off any of your Vampire villians on the first encounter. Not counting those villians we hunted for for MONTHS before finally coming face to face, at which point they attacked us. As for D&D... The Ogre Mage. We came back three times before we killed him, as I recall. The Mind Flayer we killed the second time we met him. Kissandra the Vampire is still out there. And we didn't kill the Drow when they came to negotiate. But I will grant you that our party has a preference for leaving no survivors once we get into combat. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klytus Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by DocMan I'd be shocked and surprised to find out that we killed off any of your Vampire villians on the first encounter. Not counting those villians we hunted for for MONTHS before finally coming face to face, at which point they attacked us. The point remains that no one in the group ever interacts with the villians. Once the party ID's someone as a badguy, its a race to kill them. Originally posted by DocMan As for D&D... The Ogre Mage. We came back three times before we killed him, as I recall. The Mind Flayer we killed the second time we met him. Kissandra the Vampire is still out there. And we didn't kill the Drow when they came to negotiate. But I will grant you that our party has a preference for leaving no survivors once we get into combat. The first encounter with the Ogre Mage, you escaped because he was CR 14 and you were all level 4! The reason he didn't kill you all then was because you were all inhis house, and he didn't want to damage any of his expensive furniture. The second time you all went back, he wasn't even there. You just robbed his place. When you finally met him the third time (and were of sufficient level that you were able to survive the fight) your did chat with him... but then you killed him anyway. The Mind Flayer, no one ever tried to talk too. He told you to stay out of his way, you all said "no" and that was about the end of that. Kissandra I'll grant you didn't kill... but not from a lack of trying. She's the one long-term enemy I have in this (or any other) campaign... As for your comment... "our party has a preference for leaving no survivors once we get into combat" I have this to say: if this were Fantasy Hero, I dare say everyone in this party would have a 15 Psych. Lim: Leave No Survivors. You left one survivor one time (Gale) and half of the party was wishing they'd killed her anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wormhole Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 The problem with making a "Gentleman Jim" villain is if you don't make him powerful enough to absolutely mop the floor with the PCs, or give him some other significant advantage that would give them pause, they won't give him a chance to be anything but a punching bag. Most of the posts from the What Would Your Character Do?#25 thread (where I presented the senerio involving a battle between Villain A and Villain B after A abducted B's sweetheart) are pretty clear indicators of that. Otherwise, about the only way you could introduce a "Jim" into your campaign without the players going for the kill (figuratively speaking, or not depending on the type of characters they're playing) right out of the box would be to have their first encounter with him at a venue where they can't just attack him without getting into a world of trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starblaze Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 I used the character Shocktrooper from the Golden Age Champions sourcebook for my GAC game. He is an S.S. officer who was transformed into a cyborg by Dr. Qual and was indebted to him until the Doctor apparently had died. He was an honorable German officer as opposed to a goose stepping Nazi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trencher Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Re: The EVILLLL That is... Gentleman Jim? He is an S.S. officer who was transformed into a cyborg QUOTE] If you want to play him honourable then you shoud make him just an Wermacht officer or something. The SS was the worst of the worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trencher Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Re: The EVILLLL That is... Gentleman Jim? The Mind Flayer' date=' no one ever tried to talk too. [/quote'] I think you will find that that is the norm in most campains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamashii2000 Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Re: The EVILLLL That is... Gentleman Jim? Closet character I ever had was the leader of a supervillian team who simply would not lie... ever.. about anything. She also made certian to always keep her word. I had to make sure she never said anything like "I am going to kill you" when ever she got realy..realy angry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Re: The EVILLLL That is... Gentleman Jim? How well these villains work depends on the players and the tone of the campaign. In my own games I try to follow the rule that almost no one sees themselves as evil, and I've always loved nationalistic and messianic bad guys. We've had: 1) Cai Jing-Jing, honest, sincere Chinese super fighting for her country. 2) The Old Woman, Earth's first super, born 12000 years ago. Stern, honorable in her way, benevolent towards humanity and Earth if not always towards individuals. Her "villainy" comes from deciding that the death of a few dozen (or a few thousand) people today is needed to achieve a better tomorrow. 3) Magnus Drake, Earth's most powerful magician. Absolutely polite even as he orders your death for interfering with his plans. 4) Koguchi Yutaka, polite, friendly, honorable mercenary telepath. Always sees all sides of an issue, always honors a contract. These guys can be great fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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