Magic and Armor

[GrimJesta]

Disclaimer: I play 4th ed, so maybe 5th addressed this or something.

 

Aight, Ive noticed that there is no real mechanic in 4th ed FH that limits mages from wearing armor. I honestly dont mind mages wearing light armor, but heavy armor seems silly. There would be NO reason not to play a mage-type if they can use all the weapons and armor of a warrior type, yet have the ability to summon or dispel, etc.

 

I want to make the DEF of the armor worn as the penalty to the Magic Skill roll. Like a DEF 2 armor would hit the caster with a -2 to the roll. Since most magic has side effects, this is risky. If Hit Location is being used, I want the rule to be take the worst penalty, not some sum or anything. This only applies to Arcane Casters. Priests can wear any type, as in my game they are limited as to what schools they can choose from.

 

Basically, I want to know what you think this Power Disadvantage would be worth. Orrrrr, is this already a PDis I dont know about or realize?

 

Or is this utterly retarded and I deserve to be beaten with a "Grim Be Good Stick" or whatever...

 

-=Grim=-

[Monolith]

First off, the armor limitation you are wanting is too D&D for my tastes. The reason to play Hero is so that you are not forced into D&D restrictions, IMO.

 

As far as there being no reason to not play a mage-type, I would think the fact that the magic costs points which could be used for combat skills would be reason enough.

 

Also keep in mind that it is very simple for a mage to make an 8 PD 8 ED Force Field "mage armor" spell for only a few points that is just as good as any plate armor without all the ENC penalties.

 

As far as the Limitation value, I would not consider it to have any value. I would just use the ENC modifier for DEX Rolls with Magic Rolls as well.

[WilyQuixote]

Shrike has a bunch of options for handling this, though he doesnt actually use most of them:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/ArcaneMagic.shtml

[Killer Shrike]

I use the Armor w/ DEX Check penalties option, which affects the casting of Spells w/ Gestures but doesnt hamper Spells that dont have Gestures.

 

However, I listed several other variants as well which range the gamut in restrictiveness.

[GrimJesta]

Oh man, I should set your site as my main page for my browser. So many good ideas...

 

Thanks folks

 

-=Grim=-

[Outsider]

Instead of buying a forcefield, a mage could also just wear 1 def armor, then use an AID spell with very slow loss, and beef it up every morning.

 

5 (30) 3d6 Aid - Armor -

_____(+1) Slow loss 5 points per 5 hours

_____(-1/4) Gesture

_____(-1/4) Incantation

_____(-1/2) Concentrate - 0 DCV

_____(-1/2) Skill Roll

_____(-1 1/2) Extra Time - 1 minute

_____(-1/2) Increased Endurance - 2x - 6 END per cast.

_____(-1) Focus - OAF - Small patch of chain mail

 

Two castings in the morning, and it should be maxed out at 18 character points (adding 6/6 to the 1/1 armor for a total of 7/7) Then, every meal break, a little refresh, and it should stay at max, more or less continuously. Or you could put another level or three of slow loss on it. For 7 real points it could be losing 5/month. (+1 3/4 slow loss, 41 active)

 

I dont think I'd allow it in my campaign, though, since, as written, if can be used to help -everyone's- armor, and it is nigh unto making a permanent magic item without so much as spending any real character points. The warriors who were already wearing 6 def would now have 12 def, and be nigh invulnerable to body damage. I might allow it if it could only effect ONE suit of armor at a time (ie if recast on a different target, it immediately drops on any former target. Like "self only" but a litte bit less restricted)

 

Or I would just disallow it, and, if pressed, make a strict rules interpretation that, while it does increase the DEF of the light armor, it also increases its mass. (since the light armor has the "has mass" limitation, which is tied to its DEF... DEF goes up, mass goes up)

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by GrimJesta

Oh man, I should set your site as my main page for my browser. So many good ideas...

 

Thanks folks

 

-=Grim=-

Thanx for the kind words; I just hope its useful to people.

[Greatwyrm]

Originally posted by Monolith

First off, the armor limitation you are wanting is too D&D for my tastes. The reason to play Hero is so that you are not forced into D&D restrictions, IMO.

 

With all deference, oh Double Millenial Master, is not the reason to play Hero the ability to play any sort of game you want?

 

That aside, there are a number of ways you could handle this. There are several covered in Fantasy Hero (buy it, you won't be disappointed), but here are a couple of other thoughts.

 

You could say that armor, or mostly metal armor, hampers the ability to channel magic. Call it a 10 point Suppression effect for each point of DEF. The more armor you wear, the weaker your spells are. I'd just make this a basic campaign rule and not assign any sort of limitation value to it.

 

If you require skill rolls for your spellcasting, you could assign a penalty to that roll based on the armor worn. You could base it on the DEF, the number of locations covered, or both. You might assign an extra +1/4 limitation or so to spells that require this roll.

 

Third, you could make more of a roleplaying restriction on armor instead of a skill or AP penalty. Maybe wizards, being the arrogant snobs they are, see armor as a sign of weakness in the arcane arts. Armor is for barbarians and other fools expecting to be hit with sharp objects. No real mage would sully himself with such a symbol of doubt in his own abilities. If you saw a mage in armor, you'd probably attack him first, since he's obviously the weakest. This sort of thing could easily be written up as a Psych Lim against wearing armor.

[Black Rose]

Originally posted by Outsider

Instead of buying a forcefield, a mage could also just wear 1 def armor, then use an AID spell with very slow loss, and beef it up every morning.

 

~snipped~

 

Or I would just disallow it, and, if pressed, make a strict rules interpretation that, while it does increase the DEF of the light armor, it also increases its mass. (since the light armor has the "has mass" limitation, which is tied to its DEF... DEF goes up, mass goes up)

 

An idea that occurs to me - the Armor!Aid spell can only double the Def of the armor in question. I'd make it a fairly simple and common spell for mages to have in one form or another; any magic tradition that couldn't develop a defence spell of this nature is not one that ever intends for its practicioners to even think of being in a sharp spot. The spell would require specially prepared garb (robes, animal skins, cape, toga, etc.) for the cheap version, making it really only practical for the mage (and maybe the bard or thief), though I'd say the outfit carries a Dist. Feature with it; if only crimson silk robes with dragons and cherry blossoms in gold thread can hold the enchantment, then anyone wearing the aforementioned robes is probably a mage. Not always, but do you really want to tick off a guy who can spin your joints around with a gesture and a cicada shell?

[Eosin]

Armor and the encumbant penalties are just generally not very attractive to a mage. Their strength should limit most of them, if they are brutes they will still take penalties in the heavier armors.

 

It is nice to be able to dual focus but truth is that a dedicated Bastard-Sword choppin fool or a Mystic Mage is gonna outclass and out power the guy who is split unless the dual focus guy stays on a tight theme like a Ninja or a Jedi.

 

I generally keep my mages in under 3 pts of Armor.

[Talon]

My "solution" is to make armor it's own penalty -- due to DEX penalties, noise, encumbrance, and social effects, characters only wear armor in appropriate circumstances. Most mages won't have bought the STR and DEX to make long-term armor usage appropriate; if they do, more power to them.

[Old Man]

Elric and Brust's Dragaerans wear heavy armor and cast spells well and often. So not every fantasy world limits mages to being armorless.

 

I can see the arrogance line of thought though - Feist's Riftwar series had that regarding Black Robes.

[Nightshade]

Actually, I did exactly what was suggested in the original post in my game. I don't like using encumbrance, just because it is something that takes too much time for me, so I felt that this was easier to deal with.

 

I didn't lower the cost of the spells, though, as all spells had this issue, it really wasn't limiting.

 

Nightshade

[PhilFleischmann]

Originally posted by Outsider

Instead of buying a forcefield, a mage could also just wear 1 def armor, then use an AID spell with very slow loss, and beef it up every morning.

 

5 (30) 3d6 Aid - Armor -

...

Two castings in the morning, and it should be maxed out at 18 character points (adding 6/6 to the 1/1 armor for a total of 7/7) Then, every meal break, a little refresh, and it should stay at max, more or less continuously.

One thing you forgot is that since Armor is a Defensive Power, the effects of Adjustment Powers on it are halved. 3d6 would thus give a maximum Aid of 9 points (3/3 DEF). No big deal. Just buy twice as many dice. Now it costs 10 real points instead of 5. Still quite affordable.

 

I'm thinking about a house rule for my FH campaign that some of you might find weird: Doubling the cost of all Resistant Defenses, and powers based on resistant defenses. I want my mages vulnerable. I even want fighters in plate armor to be in at least a little danger. If a guy in 8 DEF plate is facing a hundred orcs armed with short swords (1d6), he knows he'll never take BODY damage. Is this a problem for any of you? What do you think of my solution?

 

Under my hypothetical house rule:

Damage Resistance would cost 1 point per point of PD or ED instead of 1 per 2, and therefore;

Armor would cost 2 points per point of PD or ED insted of 3/2;

Force Field would cost 4 points for 3 points of PD or ED;

Resistant Damage Reduction would cost twice as much as Non-resistant, instead of only 1 1/2x as much.

 

DEFs in fantasy genre settings tend to be lower than in superheroes, IME. There should be more of a sense of danger. Monsters are trying to kill you and eat you. Supervillains just want to knock you out so they can continue robbing the bank and eventually you'll wake up in an elaborate yet ridiculous death trap, from which you can probably escape before they get back.

 

I had another idea as well for my FH game:

If you hit (or are hit) with a weapon (not a spell) and the hit roll is made by X or more, it automatically becomes Armor Piercing. That way a 1d6 weapon might still do BODY through 8 DEF armor. It represents the weapon getting through the chinks in the armor.

 

What do you think of this idea?

Is there any reason why it's a bad idea?

What should X be?

My current thought is X should be 3 or 4.

I was thinking of letting X vary depending on the type of weapon. It might even vary for "masterwork" weapons.

Which weapons should have higher/lower X?

What happens if the weapon is already AP?

 

Sorry this post is so long. I seem to do that a lot.

[UltraRob]

Make X = 1/2 of the target number. So if they make it by more than half the required number, the attack is a "minor critical" which reduces defenses to half. ("Major Criticals", such as rolling a 3 (or 4) would be up to you, maybe no defenses at all!)

 

This will make your game pretty deadly, though. You'll have to prepared for that.

 

Rob

[Drakkenkin]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

 

I'm thinking about a house rule for my FH campaign that some of you might find weird: Doubling the cost of all Resistant Defenses, and powers based on resistant defenses. I want my mages vulnerable. I even want fighters in plate armor to be in at least a little danger. If a guy in 8 DEF plate is facing a hundred orcs armed with short swords (1d6), he knows he'll never take BODY damage. Is this a problem for any of you? What do you think of my solution?

 

I really don't like changing the points at all. It always makes some other area of the game unbalanced, makes a powers to costly so PC will not use it, or what ever. Nevertheless with enough pre-game walk through and in game time I know you could work it out...

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

DEFs in fantasy genre settings tend to be lower than in superheroes, IME.

 

I agree. There have been times when a PC will be able to just walk through a swarm of What-Evers and not have the possibility to get hurt. Most of the other PC just hide till the danger has passed.

 

Once in a while I think that thats okay. When that comes up I normal have the Bad guys get a clue and run (just away, to get bigger bad guys, or to lead the PC into a trap), or try and wrestle the PC to the ground and start ripping off the armor/make called shots.

 

But as you have pointed out with the Short SW, it has a hard time getting pass Full Plate with out any help. Do you allow your Monsters to push their STR? You could also have some that are better trained to handle the more armored 'targets' ( In a fantasy world armored opponents come up form time to time. ORCS: WHO DAT !? Mo' knights comen' ta get KILLED ?!) You could give them MA training with the sword to show their skill/training to handle armor (They know where the weak parts of the armor are: AP, or they just know how to use the weapon to hit harder: +DC)

 

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

I had another idea as well for my FH game:

If you hit (or are hit) with a weapon (not a spell) and the hit roll is made by X or more, it automatically becomes Armor Piercing. That way a 1d6 weapon might still do BODY through 8 DEF armor. It represents the weapon getting through the chinks in the armor.

 

I think there is a rule like this already... I thought I had read that is you hit by +10 you do max damage... am I correct here? If it is it gives you a frame of reference to select your X.

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

What happens if the weapon is already AP?

You could just count it as APx2 so it can get passed harden armor

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Sorry this post is so long. I seem to do that a lot.

 

I don't know about that. Yours seems about as long as the ones I write. I find I explain things in a way that takes more typing then needed. :/

 

Anyway, hope it was some help!

 

Drakkenkin

[PhilFleischmann]

Originally posted by UltraRob

This will make your game pretty deadly, though. You'll have to prepared for that.

Yes. That's what I want. I do give the PCs good access to healing powers to compensate. I'm not that mean.

 

Originally posted by Drakkenkin

I really don't like changing the points at all. It always makes some other area of the game unbalanced, makes a powers to costly so PC will not use it, or what ever. Nevertheless with enough pre-game walk through and in game time I know you could work it out...

Yes. That's the whole point. I want players to buy less DEF, so I make it more expensive. Supply and demand. Price and demand, actually.

[Markdoc]

I control the DEF problem by not letting free defences stack with points-paid defences and (it's an old cliche, but...) controlling access to armour by GM'ing.

 

The plate-amour clad tank who walks into a swarm of shortsword-wielding goblins will eventually get stunned, dragged to the ground and end up with a shortsword in the DEF 0 face under his visor.

 

Realistic enough for me - and his surviving comrades will remember the lesson.

 

cheers, Mark

[Outsider]

1) Kobolds see high DEF warriors coming.

2) Kobolds run into the village

3) Kobolds emerge wielding nets, lassos, bolas, and carrying jugs of lamp oil + torches.

4) High DEF warriors no longer scoff at kobolds.

 

 

Just because they're -mostly- stupid doenst mean they're -all- stupid.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

 

Doubling the cost of all Resistant Defenses, and powers based on resistant defenses. I want my mages vulnerable. I even want

 

Not weird at all. Generic Universal (ahem) systems are great, but they do run into the problem that certain effects are NOT the same utility in every setting. DEF 3 is a heck of lot more valuable in a sword-swinging Fantasy world than it is in a blaster-using SF setting.

 

Changing the base values of DEF works, but it makes most character-creation software difficult to use. Also, doubling costs seems a little too far in the other direction.

 

My solution is to define a custom Advantage for certain Powers. For instance, in a Fantasy world,. Force Field and Armor are required to take a +1/2 "Utility" Advantage.

 

hundred orcs armed with short swords (1d6), he knows he'll never take BODY damage. Is this a problem for any of you?

 

The Orcs should be able to overwhelm PlateMailBoy. If not, then there is a flaw in the system.

 

 

I had another idea as well for my FH game:

If you hit (or are hit) with a weapon (not a spell) and the hit roll is made by X or more,

 

Why not a spell? They can't be extra-accurate?

Your idea is a good one. RPGs (that I know of) have either a "hit" or "not hit" binary discrete combat result state. Damage rolled is not linked to the accuracy of the hit. It would be nice if there were a way to do that, but I have yet to see a playable way. Perhaps a flat -3 DC, then +1 DC per +1 the hit is made by.

Or your method, although it is another "all-or-nothing" effect.

Good ideas here. They just need some polishing.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Outsider

1) Kobolds see high DEF warriors coming.

2) Kobolds run into the village

3) Kobolds emerge wielding nets, lassos, bolas, and carrying jugs of lamp oil + torches.

4) High DEF warriors no longer scoff at kobolds.

 

 

Just because they're -mostly- stupid doenst mean they're -all- stupid.

Actually, Kobolds are quite clever having human-level intelligence. In the 3e version anyway

[Hierax]

FWIW, I make Magical Weapons "Penetrating" and Magical Armour "Hardened".

 

That way a Magical Weapons can get through even high DEF normal Armour.

 

One thing about HERO that is different than some other systems is that Armour doesn't have to protect all locations equally, using the Armour Coverage rules and Hit Locations makes specifically targettd called shots a way through. Look at Fantasy pictures and very few people are full plate encased tanks, this solution works for them.

 

Giving some weapons (e.g., pick) Armor Piercing (or the old Piercing) can help too.

 

Find Weakness is also helpful for overcoming armor.

 

Don't forget about attacks that don't do damage -- grappling, nets, etc.

 

Those are just a few ways around heavy DEF armoured characters, I'm sure the more experienced folk on the boards have more suggestions.

[Killer Shrike]

Thats why I dont worry overly much about stacked defenses -- the HERO System is full of alternative means of dealing with tanks. A character that relies on unimaginative brute force tactics is going to have a difficult time dealing with a guy in DEF 8 or 9 Plate and a couple levels of Combat Luck to be sure, but a character that has other means of skinning that cat can surmount it.

 

Personally, I had major concerns about combat luck, but the release of FH introduced Deadly Blow. Now I know many people dont like Deadly Blow and are highly resistant to it. But to my mind its an ideal counterpart to Combat Luck.

 

So far they give every indication of nicely countering one another out. Deadly Blow is the more powerful of the two, being more generally useful (as it hurts opponents w/ no CL too), but is appropriately more expensive if bought in its top 2 forms.

 

Two side points:

1) As noted previously, I rule that Combat Luck doesnt protect you vs AoE attacks unless you essentially D4C to at least try to avoid the attack.

 

2) I rule that Deadly Blow only works vs living opponents (unless specifically bought to affect only unliving/inanimate opponents such as Undead, or work vs a quality inanimate objects dont generally have such as the "Holy Strike" flavor of Deadly Blow which smites evil -- useful for thwacking Undead and evil artifacts, but it doesnt let you carve thru a door in one hit)

[Hierax]

As for the Mages, the beauty of the HERO System is that you can Limit the powers in any way that you see fit.

 

Making them have a DEX penalty linked to DEF works.

 

Another way is giving their Spells Activation (or Requires a Skill Roll) and nasty Side Effect when wearing armor can also be discouraging yet not totally exclusionary.

 

If you are already using RSR you could make unarmoured an easy skill roll, lightly armoured (1-2 rDEF) a normal skill roll, and moderately heavily armoured (3-4 rDEF) a difficult skill roll, and not let heavily armoured (5+ rDEF) cast at all.

 

For Mage armouring spells, if you feel that they make them too invulnerable, give them an Activation roll so make them not be able to fully rely on it as unerring defence but still be useful.

 

There's tons of ways to make Armour work and not work for mages in the HERO system, the trick is finding the right way for your own campaign.

[gewing]

That is why Kurt can be a frightening GM. Then there is the farming Village...

 

Heavy arbalests on wheels like an old Heavy Machine Gun?

Light crossbows with poisoned ap points?

 

Picks?

Hammers?

THeir pet rust monster?

a Couple gas spores held in nets on ropes? I did something similar in D&D when a kid, the Ref was pissed that I blew open his locked door that way.

 

In kurt's game, the explosion potions were potentially devastating.

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Outsider

1) Kobolds see high DEF warriors coming.

2) Kobolds run into the village

3) Kobolds emerge wielding nets, lassos, bolas, and carrying jugs of lamp oil + torches.

4) High DEF warriors no longer scoff at kobolds.

 

 

Just because they're -mostly- stupid doenst mean they're -all- stupid.