Likelihood of mercenaries using armour piercing bullets

[Doug McCrae]

In my game the PCs will likely be fighting a force of well-equipped mercenary soldiers armed mainly with assault rifles. The mercenaries don't know they'll be fighting superheroes (in fact superheroes have only just appeared in this world) and are a general force set to guard a base in Central America.

 

How likely would it be for them to have armour piercing ammo (the only kind that can hurt most of the PCs)? As standard? On their person? In storage? Or available at all?

[austenandrews]

I would think it depends on what they're doing. Fighting in regional Central American or African conflicts would be very different from fighting clandestine First World soldiers. I'd say they would be equipped for the job they're doing at the moment.

 

-AA

[Chuckg]

If they /don't/ expect to be fighting superheroes or other armored enemies?

 

Likelihoods

 

As standard -- no way. AP ammo is useful only for hurting armored foes... in all other situations, it runs between being sub-optimal all the way down to being an outright safety hazard. Over-penetration and all that. Plus, it's more expensive.

 

On their person -- again, not bloody likely. Carrying multiple types of ammo violates the KISS principle... Keep It Simple, Stupid.

 

In storage -- Only if the merc unit in question sees armored opposition often enough to make the extra expense of buying such ammo worthwhile... and even then, those kinds of situations are usually why God gave you grenade launchers.

 

 

 

However -- that's just for the rifles. A military base in the jungle would also have .50-caliber machineguns at the very least, and those /do/ come with AP ammo... hell, the /standard/ .50-caliber BMG load is steel-cored! If they'll go straight through a V-8 engine block or an inch-thick steel barrier -- and they will -- they qualify as "armor-piercing". And then there's such things as 40mm grenades and grenade launchers.

 

So while your supers will most likely walk through the rifle fire like it's a summer shower, they should still exercise some caution around the tripod-mounted heavy machine guns and other support weaponry. Of course, such things tend to be large, obvious, and not very mobile unless bolted to a vehicle, so unless they completely skimp on their pre-battle reconnaissance they should already know where the BFGs are and what to take out first.

[Vondy]

It depends on their mission profile. I think they will arm for the task at hand.

 

If they are using standard assault rifles (especially 7.62) they probably won't bother with AP rounds because most armies can't afford to equip the majority of their troops with body-armor, and the body armor worn by most law enforcement officers (Class II ballistic vests worn under the clothes) isn't sufficient to stop most rifle shells without metal inserts (and its a rare cop who wears those).

 

If they expect to run into a first world infantry unit with body armor (including ceramic inserts), a SWAT team (who will have Class III ballisitc vests), or federal agents (who often have Class III vests in their trunks) the odds increase that an intelligent planner would have AP rounds on hand - but its by no means a certainty.

 

And if they do have AP rounds on hand, the authorities will conclude any deaths were premeditated (first degree) as opposed to heat of the moment (second degree). They will also conclude the mercs were specifically targeting law enforcement / military personnel, which will draw a lot of heat.

 

If it were me, and I wasn't expected opposition in heavy body-armor, I probably wouldn't waste the expense of AP rounds, but I would be sniper obsessed. Meaning: I would have one or two snipers with high powered precision rifles (a good scope can put them 100-200 inches a way with cover and a clear field of vision) - and since snipers might be required to take out police cruisers (firing into the engine block) or concrete planters being used for cover (etc) it is likely they would have AP rounds available.

[Blue]

Nearly every character I make has at least two modes of attack, and more commonly three. If they are gunmen (mercenaries, agents, etc.) I generally give them 2 to 3 types of ammo. They come in with the standard ammo, but if they start facing heavily armored heroes (which inevitably happens) then I have them switch to the AP or other specialty ammo. It's actually fairly common among agents or higher in my game. A street thug would never have AP attacks unless there was a special reason (in other words as part of a plot device involving someone handing out AP rounds to street thugs).

[Chuckg]

Von D-Man... True enough, but the scenario specified these guys were guarding a military base in some Central American hellhole -- so I wasn't thinking 'law enforcement' criteria.

 

OTOH, we both agree that nobody pays extra for AP unless they have a high expectation of hardened targets to shoot at... which, if I understood Doug correctly, these guys /don't/.

 

 

Blue -- while it is a common genre trope for people to carry multiple types of ammo for the same gun, if you want to take a more realistic tack, virtually nobody ever does.

 

For one thing, according to my more infantry-experienced acquaintances ammo is #@$!!@! heavy... you carry as little of it as possible, especially in a hot and sweaty place like a jungle, but you /have/ to carry a certain minimum amount. Six to eight extra clips of one type for your rifle (which is a standard load) is heavy enough... try imagining carrying *two* sets of six clips. Or three sets.

 

Two, the last thing you want to have to worry about while reloading under fire is any sort of complicated thinking -- such as "Damn, did I grab the right clip?" In a perfect world, all of your different weapons use different magazines you can tell apart by reflex, by touch, in the dark, while people are ruining your concentration by shooting at you... 'cause at least some of the time, that's exactly how you're going to be loading it.

[gewing]

I will go with the people who do not feel the mercenaries would be carrying AP ammo for their rifles. Not in Central America, unless POSSIBLY they are working for a drug cartel. If they are working for a cartel, they might have the best stuff they want, and the Russians make a good AP bullet for the 7.62x39 AK 47, etc. More likely the only small arms that Might have AP are their machine guns. If they are using old M-60s or some such, they might have some AP mixed into their belts, maybe 1 AP, 1 Tracer, 3 ball. .50 as stated commonly uses AP. One of the standard 40mm grenades has a small shaped charge for direct hits.

 

Biggest problem would probably be RPG 7s. big, slow to fire, not very accurate, but hard hitting.

 

If they are using M-16s they almost certainly WON'T have AP, as most countries don't even make it.

[Doug McCrae]

Thanks a lot for the advice, everyone.

 

The base is operated by McBride Industries, one of the worlds largest arms manufacturers. There is an overground section which is a typical military base and a secret underground R&D facility developing power armour. The base is located in remote jungle within the fictitious small central American republic of Guadorica. It is operated with the knowledge of the Guadorican government in return for armaments.

 

James McBride is seeking to guard the base from whoever. The main concern probably being the communist rebels in the mountains.

 

As it stands I've got 60 mercs with assault rifles and grenades (and launchers now - I'd forgotten about grenade launchers). There is a 3m fence, a tower at each corner mounting a machine gun, and a cleared area with a 100m radius around the base.

 

There's a scout helicopter which I thought would carry one sniper but you've got me thinking there should maybe be more snipers, now.

[Chuckg]

*blink blink*

 

If I'd known this was a secret /manufacturing/ base for /arms dealers/, I'd have given a different answer. The fact that isn't just some cocaine processing site or banana republic military base, but is instead the Hidden Lair of a high-tech and wealthy concern with Valuable Secrets to guard, changes the entire logistical picture.

 

You mentioned "power armor research". Given that this is a weapons dealer, presumably you mean 'research into making power armor cost-effective enough that it can be sold as a high-ticket mass-production item.'

 

So we're talking something worth hundreds of millions, maybe billions, of bucks here.

 

Furthermore, we're talking about their employer not just being the standard Central American dipwit, but being one of the world's greatest weapons manufacturers.

 

Under /these/ circumstances, these guys are gonna have two layers...

 

1) Surface and outer guards -- who move, act, dress, and are equipped just like all the other peons with AK-47s around here. It's not much of a secret facility if you post a big neon sign saying "EXPENSIVE SECRET STUFF HERE".

 

2) The inner security forces, safely underground and inside the buildings -- who are armed on the basis of:

 

a) We are guarding some really $$$ stuff here, money no object

 

Anybody who's made it this far inside has already proven that forty guys with assault rifles, grenades, and heavy machine guns can't stop them.

 

This adds up to "Everything but the kitchen sink."

 

 

PS -- one of the best ways I've found to safeguard a subterranean site was to make sure that the electrical generator that provided power for the elevators was at the /bottom/.

 

One of the best ways I've found to sneak into subterranean sites is to remember that people who build underground bunkers a la "The Hive" also like to build secret tunnels that lead into or out of them... that's very genre-appropriate.

[gewing]

WOW I agree, that is a different Kettle of Fish. There would be troops running around looking normal, but they might well have AP ammo. The response team would probably have REALLY good stuff.

 

Don't forget some mortars, or auto-grenade launchers for fire support.

[Vondy]

Ahem... this being the case I would, as a planner, rely more on structural security for the interior defenses (because mooks proved insufficient). I would ensure a hardened interior (perhaps underground) with reinforced concrete walls, blast doors, and advanced surveillance systems. I would also consider cooridors that could be sealed and pumped full of gas (probably military grade knockout gas of some sort, bt simply pumping it full of natural gas and igniting it could also be efficient).

 

I would also equip the interior guards with state of the art ceramic body armor, an advanced assualt weapon (probably an SMG + grenade launcher combo with caseless fletchette ammo (AP) and some sort of nasty genade (WP maybe). And what about motion sensing robot chain-guns... ala aliens?

 

And then there's the Panzerfist Mark IV prototype with a test pilot if the heroes actually get in...

 

As for outside - just plain mooks, but definately a few more snipers in the area around the compound. And AT LEAST one chopper - maybe with a mini-gun, or .50 caliber for the gunner.

[loraxxx]

Originally posted by Chuckg

[b

 

Under /these/ circumstances, these guys are gonna have two layers...

 

1) Surface and outer guards -- who move, act, dress, and are equipped just like all the other peons with AK-47s around here. It's not much of a secret facility if you post a big neon sign saying "EXPENSIVE SECRET STUFF HERE".

 

2) The inner security forces, safely underground and inside the buildings -- who are armed on the basis of:

 

a) We are guarding some really $$$ stuff here, money no object

 

Anybody who's made it this far inside has already proven that forty guys with assault rifles, grenades, and heavy machine guns can't stop them.

 

This adds up to "Everything but the kitchen sink."

 

 

[/b]

 

you might even want to consider a third layer of defense--a special response team using prototype POWERED ARMOR--stuff that works fine, but is still too expensive to mass produce--this way you get to bring in some supers who could later turn up as enemies for the PC's....

 

their cheif mission could be to 1) eliminate any threats to the base as a whole, using any means necessary; or to 2) at least serve as a distraction/delaying force while all sensitive material is moved out the 'bolthole' to a new location....

 

EDIT: dammit--von d beat me to it!!

[Law Dog]

Originally posted by Von D-Man

 

If they are using standard assault rifles (especially 7.62) they probably won't bother with AP rounds because most armies can't afford to equip the majority of their troops with body-armor, and the body armor worn by most law enforcement officers (Class II ballistic vests worn under the clothes) isn't sufficient to stop most rifle shells without metal inserts (and its a rare cop who wears those).

 

 

Unfortunately it's not as rare as it used to be. I'm an officer with the county probation department in the warrants unit and I'm wearing class IIIA all day, every work day. The class II the regular officers wear is supposed to be sufficient to stop 9mm and .357 magnum, but I wouldn't want to put it to the test against .50 AE magnum.

 

Now militaries often equip their troop with flak jackets, but that is supposed to be strictly to protect against shrapnel.

[Chuckg]

> Ahem... this being the case I would, as a planner, rely more

> on structural security for the interior defenses (because

> mooks proved insufficient). I would ensure a hardened

> interior (perhaps underground) with reinforced concrete

> walls, blast doors, and advanced surveillance systems.

 

Well, yes, those are pretty much a given. I just mentioned my own refinements.

 

> I would also consider cooridors that could be sealed and

> pumped full of gas (probably military grade knockout gas of

> some sort, bt simply pumping it full of natural gas and

> igniting it could also be efficient).

 

Another possibility is an industrial firefighting Halon or CO2 flood. Zero collateral damage to the base... but anybody without an oxygen tank in the aforementioned sealed area will rapidly die of asphyxiation. For this purpose CO2 actually works /better/ than Halon... CO2 triggers the 'inhale reflex'. Back in the early 90's, the USS _Harlan County_ lost two sailors to an accident with a CO2 firefighting system in the paint locker... they made damn near every machinists' mate in the Atlantic fleet read the incident report.

 

> I would also equip the interior guards with state of the art

> ceramic body armor, an advanced assualt weapon (probably

> an SMG + grenade launcher combo with caseless fletchette

> ammo (AP) and some sort of nasty genade (WP maybe). And

> what about motion sensing robot chain-guns... ala aliens?

 

Or, if they have superhero-tech, lasers...

 

... as in "these are the little IR lasers strung in a grid across the hallway... and this is the huge nasty RKA laser that fires down the same beam path as soon as you break one of the sensor beams."

 

i.e. -- Triggered auto-hit RKA where the Trigger is "broke the beam".

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Law Dog

Unfortunately it's not as rare as it used to be. I'm an officer with the county probation department in the warrants unit and I'm wearing class IIIA all day, every work day. The class II the regular officers wear is supposed to be sufficient to stop 9mm and .357 magnum, but I wouldn't want to put it to the test against .50 AE magnum.

 

Now militaries often equip their troop with flak jackets, but that is supposed to be strictly to protect against shrapnel.

LD, you're still screwed if someone shoots you with a rifle, Class IIIA armor or not.

 

As to flak jackets, the new US Army ones will now stop an M16 or AK round. Unfortunately not all our troops yet have them. They're going to "combat" troops first such as infantry units. Rear echelon units may not get them for quite a while.

[gewing]

DOJ worked up a new police vest standard that had a trauma plate that would stop rifle bullets and a spine protecter that would too. I haven't heard about it being fielded, but it was the same research project that led to the "interceptor" vest.

 

 

Back to main topic, I like Von D-man's natural gas thing, but I had planned it a little differently. The above ground structures are very lightly hardened. maybe like brick buildings. still not easy to level, enough resistance from troops that when the interlopers get to the access tunnel to the basement, they feel they have it made. Then the blast doors to the underground complex are noticed to be shut, and the fire extinguishing system has a valve tripped in it. Now there is either propane or acetylene being pumped into the areas. Yes, there are pre- placed ignitors. Now they have to re-build the above ground structures, but anyone who was in them is pretty messed up. If they survive, are they willing to risk the next level doing the same thing?

 

 

 

Originally posted by Trebuchet

LD, you're still screwed if someone shoots you with a rifle, Class IIIA armor or not.

 

As to flak jackets, the new US Army ones will now stop an M16 or AK round. Unfortunately not all our troops yet have them. They're going to "combat" troops first such as infantry units. Rear echelon units may not get them for quite a while.

[Chuckg]

Re: modern body armor today...

 

Last April, I read in the newspaper about a Royal Marine in Umm Qasr who'd taken four shots to the head... and survived without significant injury, thanks to his helmet.

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/04/07/BU275282.DTL

 

The SOTA never stands still.

[Gary]

In a world where superhumans exist, people would be a lot more prepared with special ammo than in the real world. I don't think you can use real world logic in a situation like this. I'd say that every mercenary would have a clip or two of AP ammo, especially since body armor and force fields are a lot more common in such a world.

[Chuckg]

> In a world where superhumans exist, people would be a lot

> more prepared with special ammo than in the real world.

 

That's why we asked if the guards at this site were expecting to face superhumans or armored people. The answer appeared to be "no".

 

> I don't think you can use real world logic in a situation like

> this.

 

Even in a superhero world -- normal people are still normal people, mass is still mass, stress is still stress, etc, etc. The reasons for not carrying any more different types of ammo than you absolutely need apply equally as well to a normal soldier IRL as they do to a normal soldier in a superhero world.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Gary

In a world where superhumans exist, people would be a lot more prepared with special ammo than in the real world. I don't think you can use real world logic in a situation like this. I'd say that every mercenary would have a clip or two of AP ammo, especially since body armor and force fields are a lot more common in such a world.

Read the first post in the thread.

[Gary]

How common is personal body armor in this world?

[Doug McCrae]

Again, thanks for the interesting ideas. The guards should have the very best weapons and armour currently available - it makes sense. I particularly liked a lot of Von D-Man's suggestions for blast doors, gas and the like.

 

However I don't think I'll go quite that far (yet) for a number of reasons. In this campaign, superhumans have only just publically appeared in the last month or so and are still incredibly rare (6 are known to exist in the whole world including 4 PCs). This will be the first time any have stepped outside New York (apart from an incident in Long Island). This is only the 5th session and I want a sense of build-up in the threat level over the long term. This isn't McBride's only facility. It will very likely get hosed but he'll learn a great deal from the defeat and be prepared for superheroes when round two comes around.

 

The PCs will most likely get a decent fight from the working prototype power armour down in the sublevels - there is only one (at present) - especially if they have to battle it at the same time as the soldiers.

 

I plan over time for this world to fill up with crazy superhero shit. Eventually people will come to expect that level of opposition. Eventually I hope this world to get as insane as the Marvel universe. But not yet.

[Chuckg]

OK, if supers have only been known on this world for a month, then site security is 99% likely to have not adapted yet. Especially in the corporate world, where spending gobs of money against unlikely contingencies that haven't hit you yet is considered a bad thing.

 

So we have two choices about the inner kill zone:

 

 

a) Have the designer set it up with the thought that if anybody vaporizes the base above and gets in that far, it's like a company of SAS hardasses, and it's time to break out the suffocating Halon floods, blast doors, and three-million-candlepower blinding floodlights. (The beauty of all the above is that these can all be bought in standard industrial catalogs... as they're original use is something else.

 

Have the designer run on the theory that "Dude, /no way/ anybody is getting past a company of guys with machine guns, mortars, and a whole military base! We don't need internal security!

 

(In a world /without/ superbeings, and if you're on a budget, the above is actually a possible rationalization.)

[KA.]

Doug McCrae:

This looks like it has been covered pretty well.

But I do have a few suggestions:

 

1) I would not have the "visible" guards carrying too much exotic weaponry. These days, with satelites, etc. Nowhere is all that "remote" and someone might wonder about the base in the middle of nowhere, with the guards outside that carry very expensive weapons.

 

There is a line in Die Hard II, that goes:

"That punk pulled a Glock 7 on me! You know what that is?

It's a porcelain gun made in Germany.

It doesn’t show up on your airport X-ray machines, and it cost more than you make here in a month."

 

It seems like the outer guards should just look like your normal "Drug Cartel" goons.

 

2) For the same reason, it would make sense to have the above ground building easy to get into, but not easy to destroy (normal windows and door, reinforced walls).

That way, once the attackers are away from "prying eyes" you can open up on them with whatever you want.

 

3) The fight with the one set of experimental battle armor, sounds like a great opportunity to create a "Half-Jack" type nemesis for your group.

All you need is a little overkill on a player's part, or a particularly "lucky" shot, to have the operator of the suit "die" while operating it.

 

Only to be reborn as a:

"Scarred Twisted Freak, who can no longer live without the suit's Life Support, but who is one tough S.O.B. while inside it."

 

I love this kind of stuff. Having a character that has an actual grudge against your team, especially one that conjures up some guilt on their part, is a great chance for roleplaying on both sides.

KA.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

LD, you're still screwed if someone shoots you with a rifle, Class IIIA armor or not.

 

As to flak jackets, the new US Army ones will now stop an M16 or AK round. Unfortunately not all our troops yet have them. They're going to "combat" troops first such as infantry units. Rear echelon units may not get them for quite a while.

 

My understanding is the actual flak jacket isn't any better than the IIIA vests used by most police tactical teams - its the ceramic inserts that really count.