Foriegn Captain America's

[Catacomb]

How about 'The White Flag' for France...

[altamaros]

Re: Foreign Icons

 

Originally posted by death tribble

I played one of these

 

As to other countries, for France you could have Marianne. I believe that is the name. Spirit of the Revoloution. There are various paintings showing this woman.

Fleur De Lis also gets used for French or semi-French like the Quebecois.

 

I agree (sheesh, i've used my nationality more than ever on this forum)

 

As a french, i think Marianne should be the national symbol i would support :

 

for a picture (from Delacroix): here

(except than i don't think she would fight crime showing her tits to everybody, or treat it as a PRE attack )

 

I remember i once tried to create a trio based on flag and motto :

Liberté (liberty: blue) : a teleport/escape artist

Egalité (Equality: white): a adjuster (based on Mirror from Allies)

Fraternité (Fraternity: red) : a mentalist

 

but the result sucked so much that i gave up.

[Klytus]

Re: Re: Foreign Icons

 

Originally posted by altamaros

As a french, i think Marianne should be the national symbol i would support :

 

for a picture (from Delacroix): here

(except than i don't think she would fight crime showing her tits to everybody, or treat it as a PRE attack )

 

Why not? The Europeans (and especially the French) have far fewer hang-ups about that sort of thing than Americans could ever hope to have (or is that not-have?)

[Nuadha]

Re: Re: Foreign Icons

 

Originally posted by altamaros

 

I remember i once tried to create a trio based on flag and motto :

Liberté (liberty: blue) : a teleport/escape artist

Egalité (Equality: white): a adjuster (based on Mirror from Allies)

Fraternité (Fraternity: red) : a mentalist

 

but the result sucked so much that i gave up. [/b]

 

I like the idea, Altamaros. I think I would change Liberte to a brick so he can br strong enough to break the chains that bind us and lend the group some needed strength. I'm also not sure about Fraternite being a mentalists, but that's because I think of mentalists as a form of oppression (mind control).

 

Years ago, I ran a Heroes Unlimited game (before discovering HERO) and used a Russian hero named The Red Comet with strength, the ability to fly at the speed of sound and fire energy blasts from his hand. Of course, Russia was still the USSR at the time. A couple of good names for a hero from cold war Russia, China or Cuba would be Red Star or Solidarity.

[AlHazred]

The trick, of course, is to come up with a name that members of that country would call their Captain America clone, not what the American comic book makers called them.

 

Frinstance, the British had a character named "John Bull" who showed up on their posters, urging their young men to join the military; he was the prototype for the "Uncle Sam" character who showed up on the US Army posters. (For a nice pair of images to compare, check out the banner at the top of this page.) "John Bull" is not a name that inspires great reverence among Americans, but to the Brits, he was the right man for the job.

 

Most attempts by American comic book makers usually seem pretty lame to me, and that's even ignoring the ridiculous caricatures that showed up on the animated series of the 70s.

[altamaros]

I gonna try (i insist on "try") to make a little synthesis of that thread on "national theme" heroes.

What we can note as recurrent aspects :

 

a) the flag theme :

The them of the "Incarnated flag" is commonly used in comics. first to make the costume more impressive/distinctive. Captain America has, of course a blue-red-white costume with stars and stripes. I can think also of Sabra (Israel, Marvel) with the David star; Batal (Syria, Marvel) or Red Star (USSR, DC) or VIndicator/Guardian(Canada, Marvel). Sometimes flags are also used as a way to demonstrate powers of some sort (Stars and Stripes in DC).

Probably more likely to occur if the flag has a easily distinctive content (stars, stripes, birds, moon, sun)

 

the national allegory theme :

The hero is supposed to be the incarnation of a allegory of the nation in some sort : Uncle Sam (DC), John Bull, Marianne

It could be used as the "father Winter" theme for Russia (aleready done in champions General Mayhem). I think this is more likely to occur in systems like republics where the identity of the state cannot be easily visualized in a single people (king/queen/Sheikh/emperor/pharoah). (of course, some can see it in the president/prime minister but it's something likely to change every 5/7/10 years; this is nto enough to really "embody" the state)

 

c) the national pet theme :

Heroes dresses or shows abilities of national animal symbols. I can remember at least 3 American Eagles from diffrents comics/games. Eagles, lions or dragons (in Asia) are common

 

Eagle : USA, Germany (many others), Roman empire

Lion : Nederlands, Venice (many others)

Bear : Russia (used for Marvel's Ursa Major), Finland

Lion And Unicorn : England (used at least once by Kurt Buziek in Astro City)

 

but other possibilities exist :

Rooster : France

Dolphin: Malta

Moose: Norway

Ko Prei (Jungle Ox): Cambodia

Boar : for Celts

Brogla: Queensland

etc..

 

d) the national plant:

The most famous (i guess) is the irish Shamrock, used by Marvel, DC, Champions. I can also think of Tokyo Rose (DC's Kindom comes), Fleur de Lys (Champions), the maple leaf for Vindicator/Guardian etc...

 

England : the Tudor Rose, the Scot Thistle

Japan : The imperial chrysanthema.

Nederlands: The tulip (not such a cheap symbol, i effectively remember a swashbuckling hero named the Black Tulip)

Leabanon : The Cedar tree

 

e) the national hero/father of the country/historic reference

a very touchy subject IMHO. what a country may consider as an hero can be perceived by others as a monster/dictator and so on: the example of that are Dracula : in Romania, aside being a fictional character by Bram Stoker, Dracula is considered as a national hero for stopping the turkish invasion. And read also the news about Staline; people in Russia are still revering him as the savior of nation from nazis.

Another example, ask a turk his opinon about Mustapha Kemal (Ataturk) and then, ask to a kurd ...

That's why our euro bills have no personalities on them. even proposing artists like Cervantès, Voltaire or Goethe brought into polemic.

To avoid polemic, a way is to take some reference distant in the past but there the risk is to totally miss the target (Italy would hardly recognize itself in Romulus and Remus).

( And speaking about national characters, i often see three characters from the american revolution setting : a flag-smasher, a drummer and a piper; are they legendary folks or real characters? , thanks to complete my personal culture)

 

f) the national monument/building theme

Sometimes seen ( Big Ben ?). i don't have real heores based on this theme in mind (except the "Big Ben" from Powerpuff girls/justice friends but, well ..., it's not really my reference as seriousness).

 

Someone sees anything else ?

 

 

Daniel

[JmOz]

I assume you mean Flag Bearer:

 

Anyways, as far as I know they were not real people, but are part of a very famous patriotic picture, the piper is playing an instrument called a Fife

[Nuadha]

I just remembered my first RPG character ever!

 

I started roleplaying with Heroes Unlimited and my first character was The Eagle, an ex-pilot for the US Air Force that was mutated by an exeriment into a bird man. A friend of mine made up The Bear, an ex-weightlifter from Russia that was also experimented on and turned into a Bear-man.

 

We played them once. Then, we both went a little crazy making characters and each found different characters we wanted to play.

[assault]

Originally posted by Rage

NO!!!! DARN YOU!!!

NEW ZEALAND HAS DIBS ON SOUTHERN CROSS!

WE HAVE YOUR PRIMEMINISTER IN OUR COUNTRY AND I'LL HOLD HIM TO RANSOM IF YOU DON'T.... ahh who cares

We got LOTR your got "Pirscilla Queen of the Desert"

 

No. Sorry. You let our PM go.

 

If you had KEPT him, then you could have had the name. As it is, no.

 

As an aside, is it true that there is an NZ hero team called Group 6? Or am I getting confused with the uplifted mammal called Sheep 6?

 

(For those outside Australia and NZ, that is an accent joke. The Kiwi pronunciation of the letter "i" sounds like a cross between "e" and "u" to Australian ears.)

 

Alan

[assault]

Originally posted by altamaros

Brogla: Queensland

 

I presume you mean Brolga.

 

Well, I hadn't thought about that one. I probably wouldn't use it. Then again, I probably wouldn't have a specifically Queensland "flagsuit".

 

Back in the '80s, in a wonderful but rather short lived Australian produced comic, there was a character from Queensland called "The Jackaroo". This was from the same publisher as the equally marvellous "Southern Squadron". (Stick these titles into a search engine and see what you can dig up, if you are interested.)

 

Unfortunately, real life Queensland sporting teams tend to have lame names like the "Broncos", "Lions", and "Bulls".

 

Alan

[assault]

Originally posted by AlHazred

The trick, of course, is to come up with a name that members of that country would call their Captain America clone, not what the American comic book makers called them.

...

Most attempts by American comic book makers usually seem pretty lame to me, and that's even ignoring the ridiculous caricatures that showed up on the animated series of the 70s.

 

AlHazred is absolutely correct.

 

In our particular context, of course, we are trying to get acceptable character names for our various CUs, too. Ideally, this would eventually flow through to the official CU, as soon as somebody gets their act together to actually write some articles, adventures or whatever for Hero Games...

 

Actually, there is still a bigger problem than Silly Name Syndrome in the official CU, and that is the distribution of supers. If you follow what is written in the book, it would be next to impossible to run a campaign in New Zealand, and awkward to run one in Australia.

 

Of course, everyone runs a variant CU anyway (at least as soon as they start designing their own characters and running scenarios), but it's still a bit of a pity that our characters can't even notionally coexist at some level.

 

At this rate, I am going to have to start playing a gadgeteer who starts handing out supertechnology to anyone who asks nicely. (Well, someone has to test his prototypes for him. Just don't complain if your flight pack flames out on you in midair!)

 

Alan

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by AlHazred

The trick, of course, is to come up with a name that members of that country would call their Captain America clone, not what the American comic book makers called them.

Rubbish. The majority of posters on these boards are American. The vast majority of Champions players are American. Why should they care what foreign nationals would really call their Cap clones? What matters is what your players will perceive as plausible.

[Pol Rua]

Yup, wot assault said.

Cyclone Comics in Australia had a bunch of great Australian superhero titles, predominantly The Southern Squadron and The Jackeroo back in the late 80's/early 90's.

 

The Southern Squadron consisted of:

Nightfighter: a yob with chemically induced superstrength.

Southern Cross: A telekinetic energy projector and a bit of a yuppie.

The Dingo: A werewolf, also a Croatian Immigant.

Lt.Smith: A non-powered female SAS operative, team leader.

 

As a bit of revenge against how the US portray foreign superheroes, they actrually included a parody US team in issue 9 (I think), the Uncanny A-Men. They consisted of...

 

America-Man: America's favourite son of liberty. A middle-aged superstrong type with a musical belt buckle that plays 'The Star Spangled Banner' to disorient and distract his foes.

The Americano: Token hispanic. A (Papa Don't Preach-era)Madonna lookalike with a whip and a sonic cry.

Stormy Weather: The token black member. A chubby Las Vegas showgirl with weather powers.

Slasher: Bionic former Sioux chieftain and embittered Vietnam Veteran.

 

Also, in one issue, The Southern Squadron ended up teaming up with their New Zealand Counterparts, The Waitangi Rangers, who consisted of:

 

Silver Fern: A middle aged superstrong scrapper.

Kingfisher: A snappy dresser in tuxedo and domino. He appears to be the team leader and has possible mental powers.

Aotea: Maori Mgician/Shaman character.

 

The adventures of the Southern Squadron were great fun, and a nice look at heroes from abroad created by overseas creators. They tended to be a bit lighthearted, but that's part of our national character pretty much to take the piss out of our heroes.

 

 

_______________________________________________

Pol.

[Pol Rua]

A great source of English superhero concepts is Paul Grist's fantastic series 'Jack Staff', which pays homage to many classic British comic book characters including The Spider, The Steel Claw, Robot Archie, Captain Hurricane and many more.

The Agency, a new series from Ben Dunn (also through Image), may be another good one to check out... as was the late, lamented 'The Establishment' from DC/Wildstorm, which featured characters based on The Avengers, The Prisoner, Dr.Who, The Champions and Randall and Hopkirk (Deceased).

As for Canadian heroes, my favourite has always been Gabriel Morissette's 'Northguard'.

 

In his intro to that series, Morissette says that we all take different approaches to our heroes - Americans tend to exalt theirs, Canadians destroy theirs, and Australians tend to take the piss out of them.

 

 

 

____________________________________________________

Pol.

[Rage]

Originally posted by assault

No. Sorry. You let our PM go.

 

If you had KEPT him, then you could have had the name. As it is, no.

 

As an aside, is it true that there is an NZ hero team called Group 6? Or am I getting confused with the uplifted mammal called Sheep 6?

 

(For those outside Australia and NZ, that is an accent joke. The Kiwi pronunciation of the letter "i" sounds like a cross between "e" and "u" to Australian ears.)

 

Alan

 

I believe so, there was a group published in the Armageddon Expo magazine that was called that, had there own little comic book as well.

Non of the characters were "Iconics" they were more we are a team we don't need to be made entirley out of iconic cliche's like some bad guest apearance team from the 70's... Ahhhh that felt good.

 

But seriously what is there for NZ and Australia?

I guess Captain Anzac or somthing (A char I've used), people who are Steve Irwin, Edmund Hilary clones or *shudder* Crocidile Dundee clones with super powers, Sports based heroes (like the Competitor), I've done a were Tasmanian tiger speedsteer... I guess we have the cliche mystic Aboriginal or Maori guy with a bull roarer or didge...

Actually as most people didn't "know" of NZ until LOTR we are kind of fresh, its most of the easy cliche that Australia has been hit by.

 

 

Actually te best Australian "Hero" done was Dingo from the Gargoyles cartoon. Even the Nanobot that went into the dream time was "fresh."

 

Australia has alot of animists they could choose

like tunnel Web or Funnel web

Taipan, Death Adder, Copper Top, Red Back, Crocodile, Dingo, Tasmanian Tigers, Tasmanian Devils, King Brown (One of the more deadly snakes.), and odd balls? Kangaroos (and wallabies), Wombats, Goanas, opossums, platypie, echindas, quokkas, frilled neck Lizards....

 

And thats just like the cliche national animist...

NB:I like the word "Cliche"

/NB

 

I wrote a team based around the super 12 last year, they bored me though so I didn't get attached.

 

Blue- Aqautic EPer

Highlander- Gaelic personalitied Construct MA

Bull - Move through specialist, guess what he looks like

Waratah- Waratahs are big metal posts, hes our straight brick.

Crusader- pocket brick MA big sword, been alive for centuries.

Chief- Waikatos Cheir, ageless spirit inhabitting an ex mungrel mob member, has a bunch of magic stuff made from ponamu. I rewrote him as NZ

s iconic 2 months ago.

Captain Hurricane- The Captain can fly real fast. he also leads

Brumbie- I think he was a speedster, could have been a techno geek can't remember

Stormer- an alien who was awakend in a lightning storm. super hard, strong, and can shoot lightning from hands.

(Tiger) Shark- boy "cursed" with becoming a shark changling able to morph into full shark or any stage between.

The Cat- An animistic cyber ninja brought or built highlander.

Red- Blues altered clone (caused by a bad guy by the name of Old Way.)Fire EPer

 

 

but knowing my luck you probably only follow league or Auzzie Rulez (they are kind of like Rugby Union but not quite, for those who don't know what Im talking bout... Its not an accent joke. Im not good at making jokes. Sigh...)

And by the by, there are more sheep in Australia than New Zealand. Just because we've realised they make good wives...

By the By have you met my cousin Baaaaart?

[Rage]

Originally posted by Pol Rua

Yup, wot assault said.

Cyclone Comics in Australia had a bunch of great Australian superhero titles, predominantly The Southern Squadron and The Jackeroo back in the late 80's/early 90's.

 

The Southern Squadron consisted of:

Nightfighter: a yob with chemically induced superstrength.

Southern Cross: A telekinetic energy projector and a bit of a yuppie.

The Dingo: A werewolf, also a Croatian Immigant.

Lt.Smith: A non-powered female SAS operative, team leader.

 

As a bit of revenge against how the US portray foreign superheroes, they actrually included a parody US team in issue 9 (I think), the Uncanny A-Men. They consisted of...

 

America-Man: America's favourite son of liberty. A middle-aged superstrong type with a musical belt buckle that plays 'The Star Spangled Banner' to disorient and distract his foes.

The Americano: Token hispanic. A (Papa Don't Preach-era)Madonna lookalike with a whip and a sonic cry.

Stormy Weather: The token black member. A chubby Las Vegas showgirl with weather powers.

Slasher: Bionic former Sioux chieftain and embittered Vietnam Veteran.

 

Also, in one issue, The Southern Squadron ended up teaming up with their New Zealand Counterparts, The Waitangi Rangers, who consisted of:

 

Silver Fern: A middle aged superstrong scrapper.

Kingfisher: A snappy dresser in tuxedo and domino. He appears to be the team leader and has possible mental powers.

Aotea: Maori Mgician/Shaman character.

 

The adventures of the Southern Squadron were great fun, and a nice look at heroes from abroad created by overseas creators. They tended to be a bit lighthearted, but that's part of our national character pretty much to take the piss out of our heroes.

 

 

_______________________________________________

Pol.

Southern Sqaudren were fun.

I always think the height of Ausie comics was Issue Ones Zero Assasin universe though, Razorback and Zero both kicked so much ass. And even the "Game Over" man was cool.

[Thirdbase]

With apologies to those of you that are from Australia.

 

Remember, Bruce that all most Americans know of Australia comes from a certain Monty Python skit. Amen.

 

And those Cocodile Dundee Movies.

 

Of course all we know about New Zealand is that they filmed LOTR there. Except for those that think it's part of Australia, or are looking for Zealand.

 

Yeah I know there is a Zealand.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by AlHazred

Most attempts by American comic book makers usually seem pretty lame to me, and that's even ignoring the ridiculous caricatures that showed up on the animated series of the 70s.

It seems to me that the treatment of foreign superheroes in American comics has become more and more favourable, and there has been a growing trend towards internationalism, since the 70s. It all kicked off with the new X-Men who debuted in Giant Size X-Men #1. The team contained a Canadian, an African, a German and a Russian. Colossus, a simple farmboy (rather like Superman) and Storm, the elemental spirit - pandering to ideas of Africa/blacks being closer to nature or more primitive - may be regarded as rather stereotyped. But at least Colossus was a true superhero, presented during the Cold War. Nightcrawler, though, really stands out for me as being a totally non-stereotyped German - he's a devil-may-care swashbuckler rather than an efficient Aryan or Prussian nobleman with a dueling scar.

 

In popular culture, the idea of an international team, even incluiding Russkies, didn't start with the X-Men, it started with Star Trek. But the X-Men were a comicbook first.

 

You can draw a line down from the New X-Men, thru Justice League International, StormWatch and similar organisations. The influx of British writers in the 80s and 90s has increased the numbers of non-stereotyped British and Irish characters. I'm thinking particularly of Jenny Sparks of StormWatch/Authority. Christ, the only way you could tell she was British was all the sodding bloody swearing. Well, that and the wankering t-shirt.

 

I think perhaps it's gone too far and there's now too much internationalism in comics. After all the audience is mainly American. Internationalism risks alienating the majority of the readership.

[Zaratustra]

• Rubbish. The majority of posters on these boards are American. The vast majority of Champions players are American. Why should they care what foreign nationals would really call their Cap clones? What matters is what your players will perceive as plausible.

 

I'm sure this is a flame, but I'll bite. The problem with 'just make up anything' is that the players might be smarter than you think. Like you describing a spring party as 'Carneval Mola' and a smartass player pointing out 'Mola' means spring in the bed spring sense, not in the season spring sense.

 

And I'll believe comic book writers pay attention to other countries when Brazilian heroes stop speaking Spanish.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by altamaros

I gonna try (i insist on "try") to make a little synthesis of that thread on "national theme" heroes.

What we can note as recurrent aspects :

 

a) the flag theme :

the national allegory theme :

c) the national pet theme :

d) the national plant:

e) the national hero/father of the country/historic reference

f) the national monument/building theme

 

Someone sees anything else ?

Anything that's distinctive to one country. It could be, but is far from limited to, a geographical feature, type of weather, animal, historical event, myth or legend, piece of folklore, National character/symbol/anthem/dress/religion/sport/custom.

 

Examples:

 

Marvel

Puck - Canadian sport: ice hockey

Sasquatch - Canadian cryptozoology. (The American version would be called Bigfoot.)

Vanguard, wielded a hammer and sickle - symbol of USSR (not Russia).

 

Me

The Gent, dresses in pinstripe, wields deadly bowler hat or brolly - distinctive British dress

The Batsman, wields a deadly cricket bat - distinctively British sport (Aussies may disagree!)

Sirocco (North African wind) - weather type

Dreamtime - Australian aboriginal myth

Trident - National symbol of the Ukraine, I discovered after a websearch.

Kalkin - The next avatar of Vishnu. Hinduism is really the national religion of India.

 

America First, villains based on The Force Of July

Constitution (super-health) - Founding document for American government

Red Glare (eye-beams) - Line from national anthem

Pilgrim (possesses a special item: The Bible Belt) - Historical founders of the nation

Bee-52 (GM bee/human) - Warplane

Rushmore (stony giant) - National monument

[Hermit]

Originally posted by altamaros

Someone sees anything else ?

 

 

NICE sum up. *Nods* I think you got most if not all of them.

One that might be mentioned (but also might fall under your other categories) would be 'National character'.

 

While also often flag bearers, many American heroes have names with the words like "Freedom" in them. It's not hard to picture a UK Hero who, inspired by his nation and his forefathers courage under the Blitzkrieg calls himself "Valiant" or "Steadfast".

 

Another thing to do is look at a nation's past names for warriors of various sorts. The State of Tennesee is called the "Volunteer state' because of the large number of young men who stepped forward in a past war to aid their nation. It's not hard to believe that in a super hero universe, a native of the state with powers might use that. Perhaps an Italian Hero would call himself "Gladiator", and a Japanese Super would dub himself "Samuraii".

[Pol Rua]

Don't have much to add, but just a brief correction:

 

In popular culture, the idea of an international team, even incluiding Russkies, didn't start with the X-Men, it started with Star Trek. But the X-Men were a comicbook first.

 

Actually, the idea of an international team of X-Men was based on 1940's War/Aviation Comic 'Blackhawk', in which an international squadron of allied pilots, The Blackhawks, battled the terrible Axis Powers.

Which predates Star Trek... by a lot.

 

"Hawk-aaa!"

 

 

______________________________

Pol.

[st barbara]

You beat me to it "Pol Rua". Nice to see that someone remembers "The Blackhawks" (even if i did cringe at the way "Chop Chop" was portayed in the 60's)

[Pol Rua]

You cringed at Chop-Chop in the 60's?

Gah, I can only quake with FEAR at how you responded to the short-lived 'Super Blackhawks' featuring The Leaper, The Listener, Dr.Hands, Big Eye and M'sieu Machine...

 

brrrr...

 

 

__________________________________

Pol.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Pol Rua

Don't have much to add, but just a brief correction:

 

 

 

Actually, the idea of an international team of X-Men was based on 1940's War/Aviation Comic 'Blackhawk', in which an international squadron of allied pilots, The Blackhawks, battled the terrible Axis Powers.

Which predates Star Trek... by a lot.

 

Heck yeah. And better yet, very few of them were American (well, Blackhawk himself is sometimes listed as Polish-American), Canadian or any other english speaking nation... THAT was what was truly amazing. (Unlike say, the X-Men where you had a German, an Irishman, a Russian, a Canadian and an African [that may or may not really be an American] and a crap-ton of Americans after that little fad wore off.)

 

Blackhawk - Poland

Lady Blackhawk - ???

Andre - France

Chop-Chop/Chopper/Liu Huang /Wu Cheng - China

Olaf - Sweden

Stanislau - Poland

Chuck - American/Texan

Hendrickson - Netherlands