Is It Worth The Points?

[Dust Raven]

After reading through the Limitation Punishment thread I got to thinking. There's a GM evil just as great as ruthlessly exploiding Limitations and Disads: Ignoring the use of spent points.

 

Specifically, when I spend points on something, I expect to have a chance to use it in game. As a GM, I try to gear advantures so that the character can make use of most of their abilities, and occasionally taylor a scenario to allow for the use of some Skills and such the characters don't use often.

 

My questions are:

 

To players, is there anything on your character sheet that doesn't see any use?

To GMs, what do you do to make sure your players haven't "wasted" points on something that won't come into play?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

In general I place a bit more emphasis on making the player *work* to use all his little abilities. I am not going to point out every time I do something that X and Z KS: on his sheet could help him with this. That is the Player's job to know his PC inside and out and come up with novel ways to exploit his abilities.

 

That said untested abilities are like insurance. 20 points spent on Regeneration (Ressurection) is going to make certian that *if* I kill you PC (or you do by pulling an Audie) then you are not going to be harmed by it. You still keep your favorite PC. Just because it has not been used does not mean that it will never be used.

 

For instance I do not think that in a Game the Gm has to ensure Aquaman can breathe water. It is the player who needs to suggest water pipes and aquatic fauna in the area to exploit. It is my job to respond with a yes or no but mostly unless we are talking Death Valley we have water somewhere.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

After reading through the My questions are:

 

To players, is there anything on your character sheet that doesn't see any use?

 

I do occasionally have something on a character that I don't expect will come into play very often, if at all, but just fits the character too well to leave off.

 

The GM will often surprise me, however, and find a way to bring it into play at least once, even if only as a "flavor bit" where the character gets to look cool or impressive.

 

If I had to select the most common item, it would probably be life support. I don't think anyone ever gets the full benefit of many of the exotic items. For example, how many campaigns starve the Supers, or last so long that Does Not Age is truly an advantage? But some characters just wouldn't be "right" without these bits. In some cases, they may be better viewed as background than actual power, just like someone else's character may have a KS of Video Games or Music Trivia.

 

To GMs' date=' what do you do to make sure your players haven't "wasted" points on something that won't come into play?[/quote']

 

All GM's review characters before they come in. I generally try to point out any areas where I feel the player may not be efficient or effective, whether that's "Realize that a 1d6, 1 DEF entangle won't do much" or "I don't expect this item will come into play very often". For flavour bits, I'm not averse to saying "Look, this isn't going to have any real game effect - you can leave it o the sheet, but cost it at 0 points." If it turns into a heavy hitter later, it can always be bought up with xp.

[mr_azrad]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

I've ran into this once. I had a GM who generally didn't let me make presence attacks (at least not as often as I liked) so I lobbied him to let me respend the points. I mean if you purchased 40 extra points of presence with no limitations on it, you would expect to get to use it on a fairly regular basis (espically on a 150 base character!). It wasen't a perfect solution because it damaged my character concept, but at least I no longer felt cheated

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

In general I place a bit more emphasis on making the player *work* to use all his little abilities. I am not going to point out every time I do something that X and Z KS: on his sheet could help him with this. That is the Player's job to know his PC inside and out and come up with novel ways to exploit his abilities.

I agree completely. I might help out a new player, or someone playing a character they didn't write themselves, but anyone who sits down and fills out their own sheet had damn well better know what's on there and how to use it. As a GM, my only responsibility (as far as this is concerned) it to make sure they have to opportunity to use it. It's not my fault if they decide to beat up the villain (combat abilities) instead of following him (stealth, shadowing).

[tesuji]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

To players, is there anything on your character sheet that doesn't see any use?

To GMs, what do you do to make sure your players haven't "wasted" points on something that won't come into play?

The player question: Almost alwaysthere are things i have on my charasheet that i do not get to use. Its not too annoying when its just a point here or there, but not too infrequently, its more. I often have skills that are great in character but wont play into the supergame. Most of the GMs i play under do not run games based off the PCs, but rather, run games and let the PCs take part. Still, i am working on them and making some headway.

 

The GM question: I have moved much farther into the "thats just an FX" realm than ever before. I wont charge a character points for "does not age" and will instead let "ageless" be his FX for buying more skills, a higher knowledge history, skill levels or even skill enahncers, etc. If i require points for immunity to aging, then it will be because i plan on introducing an ""aging attack" or situationthat does indeed make his expenditure worthwhile.

 

IMO and IMX, the impact for anything is dependent on the script and the costs charged should be relative to that impact. If you are not going to have it show up, tell them and let it be free. Most of the GMs i have run under have not worried about it and in practically every case there were balance issues.

 

As for player responsibility... its his responsibility to USE the ability when the opportunity is provided, but its my responsibility to provide the opportunity in the first place and to make it as significant an element as it needs to be. I often use +1 OCv vs water breathing for 5 pts each. The +1 OCV will help in every combat scene, attack after attack. The water breathing should not be something that is never important, significant or vital if i charge the same 5 pts. if i plan on running a supers game where they never go underwater and the only time water breathing will apply will be rare oddball situations, i should allow water breathing as an FX of his "aquatic lifeform" EC... much the same way i would allow firelad's flying trail to provide minimal light when in normal darkness.

 

All of course, IMO.

[austenandrews]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

As a GM I think of a PC's skills and powers as an opportunity. I approach a scenario like a writer -- okay, I've got characters that can do X, Y and Z; how can I turn those into an interesting story? Much of my game design is based on picking out a handful of PC abilities and developing an encounter around them. I love the moment when a player is wracking his brain trying to figure out a plan, then remembers an obscure power that applies perfectly to the situation, or a common power applied in an obscure way. It's a creative challenge for the player, rewarding for him and me both.

 

Of course it's equally rewarding and challenging for the GM to have a player who thinks up creative responses for his character. That's my kind of player. For a variety of reasons, though, I've learned that you can't count on that in your scenario design.

 

-AA

[Mentor]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

As a GM I think of a PC's skills and powers as an opportunity. I approach a scenario like a writer -- okay, I've got characters that can do X, Y and Z; how can I turn those into an interesting story? Much of my game design is based on picking out a handful of PC abilities and developing an encounter around them. I love the moment when a player is wracking his brain trying to figure out a plan, then remembers an obscure power that applies perfectly to the situation, or a common power applied in an obscure way. It's a creative challenge for the player, rewarding for him and me both.

 

Of course it's equally rewarding and challenging for the GM to have a player who thinks up creative responses for his character. That's my kind of player. For a variety of reasons, though, I've learned that you can't count on that in your scenario design.

 

-AA

Exactly. This should be an interactive exercise where both the players and GM bring flavor to each other in the play of the game. When our team is glorious in defeating the villains I spent many hours crafting into the scenario, I cheer with them because I was part of the glorious tale too.

[devlin1]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

Exactly. This should be an interactive exercise where both the players and GM bring flavor to each other in the play of the game. When our team is glorious in defeating the villains I spent many hours crafting into the scenario' date=' I cheer with them because I was part of the glorious tale too.[/quote']

They cheer?

[Supreme]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

It seems to me that the onus is not on the GM to make sure that the players get the most bang for their buck. It's the GM's job to make sure that the player get to do the kinds of things that they envision for their character in a general sense (i.e., mysteries for detectives, slug-fests for bricks, etc.).

 

What I have observed as a kind of GM evil is preventing players from using abilities that the GM just doesn't like. I've gotten into similar discussions about buying detective skills vs buying high-powered enhanced senses. I've made characters who spend more than 30 points just on senses (N-ray, telescopic, general enhanced, etc.) and then use the senses to do the detective work. People (primarily on these boards) object and say that I should be buying detective skills. Well...

 

A. detective skills cost a lot less

B. my character doesn't have the background to justify having such skills

 

If I'm GM and a player buys something I don't like, for whatever reason, I say so at the beginning. True, my players often get frustrated with me, but I think it makes for a smoother game later on.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

I think its a worse sin when the GM puts in the extra work to allow for characters to use their extras and then the players seem totally oblivious to it.

 

I can honestly say Ive met more bad Players than bad GM's.

[Vorsch]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

I object to when you have spent the points on skills and powers which would solve a senario easily and the GM goes NO cos it screws with his railroad. If you dont want me to have it dont give it me , im not going to play stupid.

 

And in another game there was a skill based initiative system going i was the best EVER at initiative 16+1d10 then we met two Klingon types in a bar ( standard soldiers )both rolled 30+, I was a Klingon type, 6 in initiative was good 10 master and 12 Grandmaster.

 

And the point is, i paid the ever increasing points to have such a ridiculous game breaking initiative and got beaten by two squaddies in a bar. ( in champions terms the agents your fighting just happen to have dex 45, perfectly reasonable)

 

I was not impressed,

[Sean]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

I generally end up with a few things that are effectively wasted points but they advance the character concept and make me happy. Knowledge skills and languages come to mind as good examples. Various skills and perqs are also possibilities. I'd imagine that skills would likely be the biggest rub when it comes to this problem. Powers are pretty well defined by in game consequences. Skills often to relate to areas that the GM might not have even considered when developing a scenario -- i.e. After a bank robbery, Player tries to use bureaucratics to find out more info from head office to help solve the crime. Some GMs would roll with this, others would simply disallow it.

 

Seems to me the fairest thing would be for a GM to give a player the heads up that certain skills (or other places points spent) will not be useful and let them reallocate 'em. Preferably at startup but if not that then later in the game. Upside with Hero's rules is that it's easy enough to allow this.

 

As far as GM's obligation to build scenarios to showcase odd and quirky abilities, I think that's an admirable goal for a GM, but it doesn't seem fair to me to expect such treatment. Especially if a lot of advance work went into preparing an adventure before the GM knew about the character.

[Vorsch]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

GMs on the other hand will spend alot of time building PC killer vilains/situation and then they know all your weaknesses.

 

Basically a Targeted vilain with no other campaign concept but to humble you.

 

Seems fair they play to your strengths sometimes.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

Yes, I have stuff bought for my character that will likely never see play.

 

For example, I've bought 55 Languages...most of them at the "completely fluent" level. Even using the discount on the Language Similarity Chart (and the appropriate cost increase, in a couple of cases) that's still a heck of a lot of points. Yes, Universal Translator would have been cheaper, even with a huge buy-up of the roll, but UT isn't "in character". Learning all the languages, as seperate languages, is. So I did.

 

The other thing this character has that will likely never see active use is:

 

Nothing Up My Sleeve: Extra Limbs (2 arms), Inherent, Fully Invisible Power Effects.

 

It looks like very short-range TK, but it is in fact a 2nd set of arms. Occassionally I'll mention to other characters how small objects (test tubes, notepads, etc.) are floating near my character, but so far that's it. Most of the time everyone (including the co-GM) forgets about it. It could pay off in a big way one day, though. Imagine this:

 

[GM] "So you're all tied up and have Power Dampers locked on you...how do you plan to get out of this one?"

 

[Me] "I'll untie the ropes holding me, then do the same for the others. I'll worry about picking the locks on the Power Dampers in a minute."

 

[GM] "Huh? Your wrists are tied together behind your back! Just how do you intend to get them untied?!?"

 

[Me] (Holding up character sheet) "With my second set of arms that weren't tied by our captors because they're Fully Invisible effects."

 

[GM] (pause) "...just how long have you been waiting to spring this one?"

 

[Me] "How long have we been playing in this campaign?"

 

 

P.S. Yes, I do consider both these things worth the points, because they add a unique flavor to my character, and that's important to me. I don't necessarily have to get any "use" out of them; just having them is enough for me.

 

 

 

[Gary]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

Yes, I have stuff bought for my character that will likely never see play.

 

For example, I've bought 55 Languages...most of them at the "completely fluent" level. Even using the discount on the Language Similarity Chart (and the appropriate cost increase, in a couple of cases) that's still a heck of a lot of points. Yes, Universal Translator would have been cheaper, even with a huge buy-up of the roll, but UT isn't "in character". Learning all the languages, as seperate languages, is. So I did.

 

The other thing this character has that will likely never see active use is:

 

Nothing Up My Sleeve: Extra Limbs (2 arms), Inherent, Fully Invisible Power Effects.

 

It looks like very short-range TK, but it is in fact a 2nd set of arms. Occassionally I'll mention to other characters how small objects (test tubes, notepads, etc.) are floating near my character, but so far that's it. Most of the time everyone (including the co-GM) forgets about it. It could pay off in a big way one day, though. Imagine this:

 

[GM] "So you're all tied up and have Power Dampers locked on you...how do you plan to get out of this one?"

 

[Me] "I'll untie the ropes holding me, then do the same for the others. I'll worry about picking the locks on the Power Dampers in a minute."

 

[GM] "Huh? Your wrists are tied together behind your back! Just how do you intend to get them untied?!?"

 

[Me] (Holding up character sheet) "With my second set of arms that weren't tied by our captors because they're Fully Invisible effects."

 

[GM] (pause) "...just how long have you been waiting to spring this one?"

 

[Me] "How long have we been playing in this campaign?"

 

 

P.S. Yes, I do consider both these things worth the points, because they add a unique flavor to my character, and that's important to me. I don't necessarily have to get any "use" out of them; just having them is enough for me.

 

 

 

 

A GM that I used to game with used Universal Translator as an uber version of linguist. If you paid the UT cost, it would only cost you 1 pt for complete idiomatic fluency in the language. Maybe you can campaign to get your GM to allow this option. Having 55 languages isn't that useful in most campaigns.

 

I'm pretty sure that you would have to buy fully invisible with your Str as well, if you wanted to exert any force through those extra limbs.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

I object to when you have spent the points on skills and powers which would solve a senario easily and the GM goes NO cos it screws with his railroad. If you dont want me to have it dont give it me ' date=' im not going to play stupid.[/quote']

I god I hate this! It's like buying X-Ray vision for some reason everybody's walls are lined with lead, or for some reason every agent, schoolteacher, newspaperman and cop your mentalist runs into has 20 points of Mental Defense.

 

Of course, as a GM I like to screw with the players a bit. Theres a super-hating journalist in my campian world the mentalist tried to read the mind of, but failed. Didn't sense any mental shields (Mental Defense), it just didn't read the desired effect. Now the group doesn't know if she's got some wort of "invisible" shield or really has that much EGO, or if the mentalist was just having a bad day. There current theory is that she's a super herself but won't admit it because of her prejudice. No way to test it, because for some reason she keeps out of sight of the mentalist now...

Not everybody's like this though, and there is a real good, in game, reason for it, but I'm not telling my players what it is. They have to find out the hard way.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

A GM that I used to game with used Universal Translator as an uber version of linguist. If you paid the UT cost' date=' it would only cost you 1 pt for complete idiomatic fluency in the language. Maybe you can campaign to get your GM to allow this option. Having 55 languages isn't [b']that[/b] useful in most campaigns.

 

I'm pretty sure that you would have to buy fully invisible with your Str as well, if you wanted to exert any force through those extra limbs.

Well, I'm the co-GM for the campaign, so I probably could lobby for the UT option, but I don't wanna. I'm perfectly happy with the character as-is.

 

And for the Extra Limbs, I disagree. After all, people can see things moving, they just can't tell how it's being done.

[i3ullseye]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

A bit off topic here, but to add.....

 

I had a character with extra limbs.. inherent, invisible and indirect. That way they could be used with objects intervening...and I added variable effect to make it multiple limbs whenever I needed since extra limbs can actually be ANY number normally, very much like touch range only TK.

 

And then he had an entire martial art based around using extra invisible limbs for surprise and such. But in this case my GM hated me using them unless it was for my combat maneuvers. I would usually use them for casual book reading and such, and he tried to hammer me with Endurance cost at every turn, state I needed direct visual contact (whcih limbs don't), etc... So even when I was using them for things my normal hands could do easily, he just could not get his mind around them being just that, extra normal limbs for all intents and purposes.

 

Now I don't think the usefulness, or lack thereof, really becomes the issue. I think it is understanding the ability sometimes, or just a general distaste for soemthing that seems alien to a particular persons mindset. The worst thing a GM can do is make sure every character is built and played as HE would think it best done. And that is really when a lot of this comes into play, especially when the GM is actively min/maxing at every turn, which many GMs who are novices are probne to do.

 

Bad guys are just combat numbers on a quick reference sheet to them early on. It takes a while for them to grasp that each character, both PC and NPC, needs to be a fully fleshed out entity for the game to be really immersive. NPCs need to learn and gain XP also, and need day jobs, and need to take the bus sometimes.

 

So alot of the good or bad GM ideas, or good or bad player ideas, really come down to general roleplaying commitment (that is, commiting to playing a character isntead of rolling dice in combat), and familiarity with the system at hand, so that things will be reactive instead of forced number crunching.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

Hehe Ripper on the #5 bus going to Silver Spring Metro Station.

 

Love that imagery.

 

Hawksmoor

[TheEmerged]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

RE: Universal Translator Variant. Say, that is a nifty idea. I'll have to give that one a little more thought...

 

RE: Extra Limbs, IPE. This is a common Speedster Trick in my campaigns, so it's something I watch for

 

RE: The Humbler. It's a fine line as a GM, one we all dance knowingly or otherwise. We need to challenge the PC's without openly hosing them. Forgive me the conceit of an example.

 

My current campaign includes a darkness-themed PC named Oamen. Oamen's primary power is a 4" radius (7" diameter) darkness field centered on him; he can also multiple-power-attack a darkness (UAA) with most of his attacks.

 

In order to challenge him, I *have* to build PC's with alternate targetting senses or area effects. However by doing so I "hose" his main defense of not being hit. I also have to build some PC's that don't have them, or he wasted points.

 

Perhaps the best example of a time this caused tricky balance issues was an encounter where the group was going to be taking on a very powerful light-based NPC -- Oamen was set to get hosed on a couple of counts. So to help counter-balance this I also had a large number of "anti-nova" goons that were supposed to hold the PC's busy until she arrived -- in other words, NPC's that were almost helpless against his powers. So he had a threat and a throne, so to speak.

[austenandrews]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

In order to challenge him' date=' I *have* to build PC's with alternate targetting senses or area effects. However by doing so I "hose" his main defense of not being hit. I also have to build some PC's that don't have them, or he wasted points.[/quote']

 

That kind of "all or nothing" defense is challenging for a GM and potentially frustrating for a player. If he were in my game, I'd encourage him to buy other defenses for when his Darkness wasn't effective. Otherwise he could be in for some really short battles.

 

-AA

[TheEmerged]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

Notice I said "main" defense -- he's got other defenses, but relative to the campaign his DEF score is on the light side.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

Slightly off topic, but I do not feel it is the GMs job description to design ways *out* of deathtraps. Sure design devious ways to kill or torture the PCs but a way out? Nah! that is what Players are *for*!

 

It is up to them to use their brains, their PCs and teamwork (if applicable) to escape. I just rarely let the first idea suceed. "We already tried that? The room is magnetically sealed!"

 

Hawksmoor

[TheEmerged]

Re: Is It Worth The Points?

 

As a genre convention, the answer is yes -- there's always a pre-designed way out of the deathtrap.

 

As a GM, I'll keep one in the back off my mind and not use it unless the player gets stumped. As a game convention, you really should wait until at least the second and preferably the third idea the player comes up with