Now that I've seen Reality Storm

[Wildcat]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

OK I just skimmed over the Reality Storm, paying most of the attention to the write ups for the SAS chars in Hero. Now I'll preface this with I've never played SAS or the Tri-Stat system, so I'm just coming at this from a Herophile POV.

 

Looking at the characters I see an odd mish-mosh of power levels on the Guard. While Caliburn is interesting, he is extremely poorly built for a 400+pt char, and the same goes for SlipStream & Mother Raven. It seems rather odd to have these characters on the same team w/Sentinel & Red Phoenix (900 & 600pts respectively) Not to mention the Villains. I mean How can Slimstream even HOPE to survive a battle that is going to be challenging to Sentinel? He’s got an 11 PD/ED, and the only way he could effectively deal some Damage would be to Move By/Through on someone. And with his PD I wouldn’t recommend the Move through. Not to mention that his full movement cost him 9 End, a Strike 2 End, for a total of 11 & with a 9 SPD that’s 99 End a Turn (or lots of Recoveries @ reduced DCV Not that his DCV is any good for a Speedster anyway)… he’s only got 36 End. Then to be the Team Speedster and only have a 20 DEX (24 w/LR) he’s slower than Red Phx, & Sentinel too (not counting the LR). It would seem that Red Phx & Sentinel do all the heavy lifting in this team, while the others hope the villains don’t notice them.

 

Anyway I think you get my point… and I’m not even getting into Kreutzitter. The only thing I can think of to pin this on is the Conversion. I think that the SAS chars in Hero stats are def getting the short end of the stick here. Has anyone else noticed this?

 

Maybe someone familiar with the SAS system can shed some light on this for me.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

Metaphysician,

 

You don't want any of the White Rooks ?

I do particularly Alice who you can drop in almost anywhere.

 

Alice is not bad; super-mercs are easy to integrate. However, the rest are rather blah, or have serious issues. Certainly, I'd rather use Teleios than Matthews any day.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

I believe he means crowded in the sense that there are so many listed heroes in the champions universe. It seems like there are over 150 listed in the pdf. Millenium city alone has 22 listed heroes in it, not including the ravenswood cadets.

 

It does seem like hero games goes out of its way to not give us hero write ups. Even the mystic world has no mystic superhero write ups in it. You would think they would have included one or two. IMO, we really need more concrete information on the universe and its heroes.

 

I don't really count those people, since no information is provided. They can be used as anything you want, with no real effect outside the small handful for each city that are "local big names."

 

I agree, though, we could use much more hero writeups. Especially for the Sentinels and Justice Squadron.

 

( no, the hideously underpowered Digital Hero writeups don't count )

[Metaphysician]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

There really are not that many high point villains in champions. I believe there are only 7 published villains over 1' date='000 points. The other 120+ are all in the 350-800 point range. With heroes starting at 350 points a 500 point villain is really not much of a challenge for 2-3 heroes in combat. I don't really see the overshadowing you speak of.[/quote']

 

Yeah, but the setting is in desperate need of some higher point heroes to account for why all those 1000+ villains haven't conquered the world yet.

 

( 1000+ = Dr Destroyer, Takofanes, Gravitar, Warlord, Mechanon, Menton, Supreme Serpent, Viperia. Istvatha and Teleios are in the same effective power range or higher, despite their lower point total. Probably about another half dozen in the same range yet to be statted, like Dr Yin Wu )

[Metaphysician]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

OK I just skimmed over the Reality Storm, paying most of the attention to the write ups for the SAS chars in Hero. Now I'll preface this with I've never played SAS or the Tri-Stat system, so I'm just coming at this from a Herophile POV.

 

Looking at the characters I see an odd mish-mosh of power levels on the Guard. While Caliburn is interesting, he is extremely poorly built for a 400+pt char, and the same goes for SlipStream & Mother Raven. It seems rather odd to have these characters on the same team w/Sentinel & Red Phoenix (900 & 600pts respectively) Not to mention the Villains. I mean How can Slimstream even HOPE to survive a battle that is going to be challenging to Sentinel? He’s got an 11 PD/ED, and the only way he could effectively deal some Damage would be to Move By/Through on someone. And with his PD I wouldn’t recommend the Move through. Not to mention that his full movement cost him 9 End, a Strike 2 End, for a total of 11 & with a 9 SPD that’s 99 End a Turn (or lots of Recoveries @ reduced DCV Not that his DCV is any good for a Speedster anyway)… he’s only got 36 End. Then to be the Team Speedster and only have a 20 DEX (24 w/LR) he’s slower than Red Phx, & Sentinel too (not counting the LR). It would seem that Red Phx & Sentinel do all the heavy lifting in this team, while the others hope the villains don’t notice them.

 

Anyway I think you get my point… and I’m not even getting into Kreutzitter. The only thing I can think of to pin this on is the Conversion. I think that the SAS chars in Hero stats are def getting the short end of the stick here. Has anyone else noticed this?

 

Maybe someone familiar with the SAS system can shed some light on this for me.

 

. . .ouch. I have SAS, and I can't explain all of that.

[JJR]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

Looking at the characters I see an odd mish-mosh of power levels on the Guard. While Caliburn is interesting' date=' he is extremely poorly built for a 400+pt char, and the same goes for SlipStream & Mother Raven. It seems rather odd to have these characters on the same team w/Sentinel & Red Phoenix (900 & 600pts respectively) Not to mention the Villains. I mean How can Slimstream even HOPE to survive a battle that is going to be challenging to Sentinel?[/quote']

The guard are designed to represent the justice league of their universe. How does Batman survive something designed to be fought by Superman or Green Lantern? The same concept applies here. Most of the games I have played in have had different power levels for all the heroes. Crane does 8d6, Valhalla does 22d6. The game works for us without anyone feeling under or over powered.

 

The genre itself dictates that all characters have dramatically different power levels. It's really only in champions games that everyone needs to be equal for some reason.

[JJR]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

Yeah' date=' but the setting is in desperate need of some higher point heroes to account for why all those 1000+ villains haven't conquered the world yet.[/quote']

I agree superhero write ups are very much needed for the game. Strike Force and To Serve And Protect are two very fondly remembered books because of the superhero write ups in them.

 

I don't really agree that you need mega-heroes to stand up to 1,000 point villains. The Champions can go against Mechanon and have a reasonable chance at success. The same goes for Warlord and Supreme Serpent. Point totals are not always an indicator of power.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

I don't really agree that you need mega-heroes to stand up to 1' date='000 point villains. The Champions can go against Mechanon and have a reasonable chance at success. The same goes for Warlord and Supreme Serpent. Point totals are not always an indicator of power.[/quote']Our team MidGuard took on TWO Mechanon knockoffs simultaneously and won, and we're all under 400 points even with experience.

[Wildcat]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

The guard are designed to represent the justice league of their universe. How does Batman survive something designed to be fought by Superman or Green Lantern? The same concept applies here. Most of the games I have played in have had different power levels for all the heroes. Crane does 8d6, Valhalla does 22d6. The game works for us without anyone feeling under or over powered.

 

The genre itself dictates that all characters have dramatically different power levels. It's really only in champions games that everyone needs to be equal for some reason.

 

Well in a Comic Book a mix of Powerlevels can work just fine, but in an RPG it's not that easy. If you have someone in the team that can dish 22d6 then there should be a villian that can take that hit. If so then the 8d6 guy is totaly ineffective most of the time... granted special powers can come into play at anytime.

How does Batman hang w/GL & Supes... Because he's the smartest one there.. he's got a ZILLION points too... vehicles, Gadgets TONS of skills, Combat skill levels and so on... But my point wasn't weather or not the Guard were in genre but why some of them came out so totaly bad when converted... Are those characters really that outclased by the others in the Guard? Or was it a matter of Mechanics that got lost in the conversion. And remember my example was of Slipstream (a Flash like char) who couldn't stand up to Impulse (Kid Flash now) let alone the Flash.

I guess what I'm getting at is that without knowing the SAS system, it looks like the other chars in the Guard are just non-combat support for Red Phx & Sentinel.

[Agent X]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

Our team MidGuard took on TWO Mechanon knockoffs simultaneously and won' date=' and we're all under 400 points even with experience.[/quote']Our team, the Regulators (I didn't pick the name) were all under 400 points and took on multiple Mechanons, at least eight or nine, and defeated them. We used what we had and took advantage of SKILLS! and somewhat CLEVER USES of POWERS! to destroy the Mechanon Factory.

[JJR]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

And remember my example was of Slipstream (a Flash like char) who couldn't stand up to Impulse (Kid Flash now) let alone the Flash.

I guess what I'm getting at is that without knowing the SAS system, it looks like the other chars in the Guard are just non-combat support for Red Phx & Sentinel.

The characters are combat support. Maybe Slipstream can't fight Iron Duke but he can fight Alice or Janus or other people within in the conflict. Mother Raven is not too powerful but she does have a 30 ego and her mental illusions will almost always go first. I would also hate to be caught by her sun's kiss. Slipstream can dish out 8d6 of damage but he does have a 9 speed.

 

You can't really compare everyone to Sentinel. He is like Superman. Red Phoenix only dishes out 12d6 of damage. It is not like she will be using her major killing attack on every thug that wanders into her path. The power levels are diverse but with the exception of Sentinel most of the guard are in the 8d6 to 12d6 range.

 

I personally find groups like the Champions boring. What is the point of diversity when everyone does the same damage and has the same defense level? In combat they all become interchangeable.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

I haven't gone oiver the Guard's Champions writups in fine detail but iN SAS terms their point levels really do vary that wildly. Sentinel is 300 points in SAS. caliburn is only 125 points -- yet, in his envirronment, he kicks ass and takes names. he is a superb tactician, the epitome of training that a human can achieve without resorting to mutagens, and has a neary indomitable force of will (something Champions, by linking EGO to mental powers, doesn;t always model very well). In many respects he IS the batman of the ECU, and he can do a lot of things that he doesn;t neccesarily even have to pay points for.

 

In Champs tersm, Claiburn has a +4 modifier of ALL combat. combine that with his good 9if not overwhelming) GAdget Pool and you have a street-level super who can survive in a four-color world. Most of the time he WILL hit you. Most of the time you can't hit him. And he;s smart and craftyy, knwoing better than to hit something he knows he can;t hurt unless he has some other reason. If any villain in a universe Caliburn is in has a Susepticlity of Vulenrability, Caliburn will know, and exploit it ruthlessly. And part os his job on the Guard is to teach the rest of the team hbow to fight smart and effectively with everything at their disposal.

 

This guy is as seriously badass as Nighthawk, if not more so.

[Wildcat]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

The characters are combat support. Maybe Slipstream can't fight Iron Duke but he can fight Alice or Janus or other people within in the conflict. Mother Raven is not too powerful but she does have a 30 ego and her mental illusions will almost always go first. I would also hate to be caught by her sun's kiss. Slipstream can dish out 8d6 of damage but he does have a 9 speed.

Yeah 8d6 with an average Stun of 28 per hit, and let's say he's fighting someone with the average Def like in the Champions (20) that's 8 stun per hit. OK 9 Hits in a Turn and we're looking at 72 Stun... not bad. Except that Slipstream cant dish that out 9 times... he can only do this in 4 times (12, 2, 3, 4) before he's out of End and at best he's only got either a 9 OCV or a 9 DCV or some combo adding up to that. So not very un-hittable. If he takes a hit (Very Likely) from the once again Average Champions attack (12d6) that's 42 Stun, and 31 past his def... he's KOed in 1 hit. Sounds very Combat Ineffective. Oh and Alice would THUMP Slipstream.

 

 

You can't really compare everyone to Sentinel. He is like Superman. Red Phoenix only dishes out 12d6 of damage. It is not like she will be using her major killing attack on every thug that wanders into her path. The power levels are diverse but with the exception of Sentinel most of the guard are in the 8d6 to 12d6 range.

Sorry didn't mean to compare him only to Sentinel, I thought I said Flash. But I will say this again. In a Comic where the writer controls everything... having that varied a power level is fine, only when the writer wants it that way, do opponents of the 2 ends of the spectrum face each other... and then it still ends up the way the writer wants it.

In a RPG however the GM, while having a large amount of control, doesn't have absolute control, and in most instances you will wind up with the powerful ones SLAUGHTERING the lower powered characters.

 

I personally find groups like the Champions boring. What is the point of diversity when everyone does the same damage and has the same defense level? In combat they all become interchangeable.

I think that it's not the # of d6 you throw or your total PD/ED that defines the character, or distinguishes him/her from the other PCs. It's HOW you do it... isn't this Hero?? Isn't this the Game where SFX rules Supreme. So if Blastar does 6d6 NND, and so does Thrash does that make them the same chars? Boring Chars? I say not... Blastar's is described as a Bio-blast disrupting the victim’s nervous system... Thrash's is the classic Brick Trick: Finger Thump... Thumping an unarmored sap in the melon to knock them into oblivion.

 

Anyway I think we've gotten off on a tangent here. I wasn't faulting the characters or their concepts. I was trying to figure out how these 'Iconic' Characters, whom I suppose are quite powerful in the ECU can be so wimpy in the CU. I suspect it's the Conversion system, but I have no way of knowing because I don't play SAS (Tri-Stat). And if it was the conversion system… I would like to think that some care would be taken to represent the characters as accurately as possible. (Although I can see why that couldn’t be done, it would invalidate the Conversion system if it wasn’t used 100% on the characters in the book.)

So is there anyone out there that could tell me if these chars from SAS are getting yanked by the short hairs, or is this really how they are?

[JJR]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

So is there anyone out there that could tell me if these chars from SAS are getting yanked by the short hairs' date=' or is this really how they are?[/quote']

I don't believe the characters are getting yanked. Your point about Slipstream's endurance is valid but SAS does not use endurance in any viable way. Endurance is an optional rule in SAS so the endurance usage by characters is an oversight.

 

Having played SAS before coming back to champions I think they are fairly accurate representations. I think there is room for color adjustments with the characters after the straight conversions. In the SAS universe Sentinel is supposed to be around a 900 point character and Slipstream is supposed to be around a 300 point character within the SAS universe.

[JJR]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

Isn't this the Game where SFX rules Supreme. So if Blastar does 6d6 NND' date=' and so does Thrash does that make them the same chars? Boring Chars? I say not... Blastar's is described as a Bio-blast disrupting the victim’s nervous system... Thrash's is the classic Brick Trick: Finger Thump... Thumping an unarmored sap in the melon to knock them into oblivion.[/quote']

I agree somewhat, but when every single character in your group has the same speed, does the same damage, has the same defenses, and has the same movement inches to maintain 'balance' then I think something is flawed. Special effects are nice and interesting but if you can remove Sapphire and replace her with Meteorman and no one notices a difference than something is slightly wrong.

[Hermit]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

I agree somewhat' date=' but when every single character in your group has the same speed, does the same damage, has the same defenses, and has the same movement inches to maintain 'balance' then I think something is flawed. Special effects are nice and interesting but if you can remove Sapphire and replace her with Meteorman and no one notices a difference than something is slightly wrong.[/quote']

 

I'd say the something wrong in that case would be you don't have enough Roleplaying to go with your combat. I mean, sheesh, that's a change the other PCs should notice don't you think?

 

"So, Sapphire, is it my imagination, or did you change your costume again?"

[JJR]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

I'd say the something wrong in that case would be you don't have enough Roleplaying to go with your combat. I mean' date=' sheesh, that's a change the other PCs should notice don't you think? [/quote']

For roleplaying there is a difference. From power level most champions starting characters are interchangeable.

 

It should also be pointed out that the Guard are an npc team, not the player's team. I have a feeling that the Sentinels from the cu also have varying power levels. But from a roleplaying stand point not everyone needs to be the same power levels. The roleplaying is even better when you have such diversity in a group as the Guard has.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

The guard are designed to represent the justice league of their universe. How does Batman survive something designed to be fought by Superman or Green Lantern? The same concept applies here. Most of the games I have played in have had different power levels for all the heroes. Crane does 8d6, Valhalla does 22d6. The game works for us without anyone feeling under or over powered.

 

The genre itself dictates that all characters have dramatically different power levels. It's really only in champions games that everyone needs to be equal for some reason.

 

Except that Batman makes up for his lack of offensive power through a massive and versatile skill set. Caliburn, as written, isn't all that good a street level fighter, doesn't have that great a skill or equipment set, and is in general way too weak.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

I agree superhero write ups are very much needed for the game. Strike Force and To Serve And Protect are two very fondly remembered books because of the superhero write ups in them.

 

I don't really agree that you need mega-heroes to stand up to 1,000 point villains. The Champions can go against Mechanon and have a reasonable chance at success. The same goes for Warlord and Supreme Serpent. Point totals are not always an indicator of power.

 

No, but they are a good indicator. And I don't know how you run campaigns, but just looking at the stats, I don't see the Champions winning against Mechanon without a lot of backup. . .

[Wildcat]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

No' date=' but they are a good indicator. And I don't know how you run campaigns, but just looking at the stats, I don't see the Champions winning against Mechanon without a lot of backup. . .[/quote']

 

I'll Second that!!!

[JJR]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

No' date=' but they are a good indicator. And I don't know how you run campaigns, but just looking at the stats, I don't see the Champions winning against Mechanon without a lot of backup. . .[/quote']

I think you've already seen a couple of examples from people in this thread who say their 350-400 point groups are taking down 2 or more Mechanon's in a battle. It's really not that uncommon for that to happen. Run some test combats yourself. You might be surpised how easy Mechanon is to defeat.

[Hermit]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

I think you've already seen a couple of examples from people in this thread who say their 350-400 point groups are taking down 2 or more Mechanon's in a battle. It's really not that uncommon for that to happen. Run some test combats yourself. You might be surpised how easy Mechanon is to defeat.

 

 

Never underestimate a PC's ability to get on a hot streak. I had maximum damage done to Mechanon by the same Player's character TWICE in a combat. The others came close to matching that luck. This, combined with some good tactics, proved lethal for Mechanon. This was a 350 pt group.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

I don't think it's a coincidence that Mechanon is included as the example team-threatening opponent in the Champions genre book. I've begun to suspect that he was designed for a team of Standard Superheroes to be able to beat, albeit usually after a tough fight. His defenses are low compared to the size of his attacks, and his offensive Multipowers are not built as efficiently as they easily could be.

 

OTOH the version of Mechanon that you'll see in Galactic Champions is a VERY different story.

 

As far as the Guard goes, if their translation into HERO terms compares fairly to their SAS stats, that's really all that we could ask of the translation matrix. It sounds as though they wouldn't be that hard or expensive to modify to be more effective in combat. Slipstream, for example, would seem to just need some more DEX and/or CSLs, and higher Defense to let him perform Move Throughs. The basic concept and design parameters of a character are the hard parts to come up with, and that's been done for us with the Guard; the rest is mostly a matter of tweaking to taste.

 

I'll probably be picking Reality Storm up this weekend, though, so I'll see for myself. As I said before, I've been looking for a good character to fill the Superman role in my campaign world, and a 900 pt. Sentinel sounds promising.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

3 roll calls

 

I wasn't aware the third one had come out... Another book to order next week.

 

Alice is likely my favorite villian in SAS followed by Kruezritter. I've already used both of them in my Champs game (I've been doing seat of the pants re-imaginings of SAS characters since I first got the SAS book).

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Now that I've seen Reality Storm

 

There really are not that many high point villains in champions. I believe there are only 7 published villains over 1' date='000 points. The other 120+ are all in the 350-800 point range. With heroes starting at 350 points a 500 point villain is really not much of a challenge for 2-3 heroes in combat. I don't really see the overshadowing you speak of.[/quote']I guess it is hard to see the forest sometimes with the trees getting in the way;) The average point total for all those villains is well over 350, and some of them bring a lot more to the table than just themselves (Warlord with a mere army of 4000 is one of the lesser examples). How many of these villains are your 350 pt PCs stopping by themselves?