When Heroes become Villians

[TheQuestionMan]

Greetings HEROdom, I have noticed a disturbing trend in our gaming group's actions against larger groups.

 

We have become ASSASSINS. Using Magic, Stealth, and Ruthlessness to murder a Company of Mercenaries (100 troopers). The scouts were silenced permently, their Captain slain in his tent, and the rest died in their sleep. None awakened. We looted their gear, horses, and left only a stable boy alive. Their bodies were entombed by an earth elemental. Leaving a ghost encampment, Blood stained tents and sheets, but no signs of bodies or gear.

 

Now mind you a civil war rages around us and they were on the other side, but some how my character feels I have lost something precious. An Elf who may regret it for the rest of his immortal life. What have we become.

 

I read what I have written and it touches me still. The cursor pulses with a life beat of it's own. I wonder... I wonder... ?

 

Peace

 

QM.

[Old Man]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

You folks have a long way to go before you sink to the depths of depravity attained by groups I've gamed with in the past. A sneak attack in wartime? Psh. Goody-two-shoes stuff. Especially since you left the stable boy. That was stupid.

[lemming]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

You folks have a long way to go before you sink to the depths of depravity attained by groups I've gamed with in the past. A sneak attack in wartime? Psh. Goody-two-shoes stuff. Especially since you left the stable boy. That was stupid.

Always make sure you find out the list of relatives of everyone. Then hunt them down and kill them before they get to some martial arts teacher who will give them a whirlwind course otherwise.

[Maccabe]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

Oddly enough this is a question I was going to ask the gaming community.

I set up a game and the (so called) "heroes" start to act like villians.

 

Who are you wondering about; is it yourself ,your character or your group?

Well does your character have disadvantages such as ; "honorable", "code versus killing", or similiar??

As for yourself, this is a role-playing game where a certain amount of distance is required. If you don't like whats going on you can change characters or leave the group.

[Old Man]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

I have to agree with Old Man. It's wartime, so killing the other side is fine and dandy. Just don't be surprised when your side loses 100 guys too. Besides, you have what, 6 characters in your group? What else are you going to do against a unit 100 strong? If leaving the stable boy alive was dumb, facing 20-to-1 odds in a straight battle borders on serious brain malfunction.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

Oddly enough this is a question I was going to ask the gaming community.

I set up a game and the (so called) "heroes" start to act like villians.

 

I've been running a club for kids for a few years now and their immediate instincts are to the darker side of actions. It's understandable - they are 12-15 year old boys and their thoughts run amok. I wince when watching their games trying to remember those long ago years when I was their age - wondering whether my friends were any less bloodthirsty!

 

Anyway - its been a long time but they have responded to in-game prompts. they know that I prefer a heroic style of game and they understand that heroic actions garner not only preferntial treatment but avoid the full weight of the law coming down upon them.

 

When they suggest doing something reprehensible I repeat the action to them in the form of a question and almost invariably they now change their actions. When they don't they know that the game world they play in will not tolerate their action and their characters will suffer - but sometimes they want that kind of session for a while.

 

Doc

[Trencher]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

Leaving the stable boy was smart, he can tell his story and put a human face on things. Otherwise the leaders of the opposing forces could just hush the pc's actions down.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

Oddly enough this is a question I was going to ask the gaming community.

I set up a game and the (so called) "heroes" start to act like villians.

 

Who are you wondering about; is it yourself ,your character or your group?

Well does your character have disadvantages such as ; "honorable", "code versus killing", or similiar??

As for yourself, this is a role-playing game where a certain amount of distance is required. If you don't like whats going on you can change characters or leave the group.

 

I guess I feel I have betrayed my character concept. I also have noticed a dramatic shift in the morals of may gaming group. We have built a reputation for Heroic actions. We have done this and managed not to make enemies. Our only true enemies are those of our leige lord. This is not by chance, but by design on the groups part. If anyone learns of our actions all that work is lost. While my characer is Bard enough to do damage control.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

I have to agree with Old Man. It's wartime' date=' so killing the other side is fine and dandy. Just don't be surprised when your side loses 100 guys too. Besides, you have what, 6 characters in your group? What else are you going to do against a unit 100 strong? If leaving the stable boy alive was dumb, facing 20-to-1 odds in a straight battle borders on serious brain malfunction.[/quote']

 

I guess I forgot to mention the stable boy was under a "SLEEP" spell, would only awake 3hrs after we left, and would only become aware of what had happened when he awoke.

 

I am not saying we should have confronted them in straight up fight. I just feel we should have done something more ... Honourable (yeash, that sounds lame).

[Blue Jogger]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

In a similar vein, our group had taken out hired assassins by attacking at night, killing everyone with massive death spells. Resurrecting the only known innocent bystander (a lady of the evening).

 

My character, a full-elf, was deeply disturbed by the attack since "only Drow attack at night and slaughter people in their beds". However, that night, he did understand why a handful of Drow would attack an entire city with that method.

 

If you're worried about the reputation, you should have just covered up the entire camp (minus the cabin boy) via earth elemental. 3 hours later, the boy would have woke up without knowing what had happen. They simply disappeared.

[Nevenall]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

I think what your group did makes practical sense if you were real people in real life, but your situation reminds me that my personal ideal is for the GM and players to work together to tell a story.

In a story you would probably not have needed to resort to wholesale killing because some convenient plot device, or deviously clever plan, would have presented itself and allowed your group to overcome the enemy without so much blood spilled. The problem is most plot devices and clever plans really make no sense in real life, so they get discarded by players who are working from real life experience.

As a GM I try to get my players to trust me and story, by showing them that the can succeed when real life experience would tell them no.

[Metaphysician]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

I have to agree with Old Man. It's wartime' date=' so killing the other side is fine and dandy. Just don't be surprised when your side loses 100 guys too. Besides, you have what, 6 characters in your group? What else are you going to do against a unit 100 strong? If leaving the stable boy alive was dumb, facing 20-to-1 odds in a straight battle borders on serious brain malfunction.[/quote']

 

Well, there are some fantasy characters who could solo a mere 100 man army, but somehow, I doubt this group contains any of them.

[Metaphysician]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

Actually, if the group's goal was to inspire fear in the enemy, and put a hurt on their morale, this sounds like a really good plan.

[Guest joen00b]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

In one Champions campaign I ran about 15 years ago, I blew up Candlestick Park (3com for you younger folks) in the middle of the Super Bowl: 49ers vs the Steelers. It crushed the nation.

 

On the one year anniversary, they held a candlelight vigil at the ruins, and Viper showed up en force and opened up killing many of the attendees. Man, did that piss my group off! They went straight rogue/vigilante on Viper, killing anyone with any affiliation with them, including normal members of society that helped them launder money or unknowingly supply them with materials.

 

That was downright nasty of me, and they retaliated in kind.

[Metaphysician]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

Out of curiousity, why was VIPER engaged in random killing?? Usually, they avoid stuff like that in public places as bad publicity ( at least 5e ).

[Markdoc]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

Actually, it sounds like this was a well-run game - the players did something possibly necessary but strictly non-heroic: and your character has problems with it. That's the way it *should* work, rather than treating NPCs as a bunch of disposable cardboard cut-outs.

 

To prevent the game sliding towards "gang of killers" you might want to play this up a little bit - maybe discuss it out of game with the GM and suggest he works some consequences into the game. Consequences don't need to be lethal - having the secret leak out (not hard with clairvoyance spells around) might prejudice someone important later on. The PCs might be called on (or encouraged) to do something suitable heroic to atone. The GM could have another hero on your side refuse to associate with "people who murder opponents in their beds" or a hero on the other side swear to avenge the cowardly murder of his faithful friend/brother/father/whatever.

 

The possibilities are endless!

 

Cheers,Mark

[Vondy]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

First - what you just described sounds more like tactics than villiany. We laud and admire our special operations personnel in the modern day, and most of their methods are based on stealth, ambush, maximized fire-power, and hit and run geurilla warfare tactics. During a time of war, or during critical paramilitary operations, hard decisions have to be made. Soldiers aren't paid to fight "fair" - when you fight fair you only have a 50/50 shot at winning. Soldiers are paid to win.

 

Second - there was no geneva conventions protecting the rights of prisoners and whatnot during the relevent period, and even though there were some customs in the latter middle ages covering this, they were just customs. Battle field necessity was the overriding concern. Look at what the Romans did with their prisoners, or the Keltoi and Nordic tribes, theirs. Or even the early feudal knights of western europe.

 

Third - we have a highly idealized concept of chivalry and honor that is massively divergent from its real world, and realistic, form. Chivalry and honor was accorded to men of rank, not to the rank and file. There was no reason for a knight not to hack down peasant scum other than offending another knight or impacting his own labor force. And the term hazing we use in relation to frats and sororities today was actually something young knights did to unprotected noble women. What we identify with as chivalry didn't emerge until the latter 14th and 15th centuries.

 

Fourth - I agree that executing a sleeping stable boy was unecessary and potentially villianous (they could have just tied him up), but killing the members of a larger, hostile force when they had the opportunity, be they helpless or no was understandable, and from some perspectives, unavoidable since they themselves would have been killed, or at least their mission impeded, if they could not manage their prisoners.

 

If you want to run a game where everyone is shiny and neat-o and the perfect ideal of chivalry (I've run a game or two like that) that's cool, but you shouldn't put them in situations where hard, logical battlefield decisions have to be made, unless they know they can trust you when you say the enemies captain has given his word that he will withdraw if you allow him to keep his sword and do so with dignity.

 

If you are just a player - them's the breaks. Different players expect different things, and the tension between characters can lead to good roleplaying. What if your character manages to get the others to agree to some basic groundrules (not killing downed opponents unless they pose a real threat to the missions success or their personal safety)? What if you're characters come up with an actual working doctine for the battle field. That would be more than many groups have.

[Agemegos]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

Third - we have a highly idealized concept of chivalry and honor that is massively divergent from its real world' date=' and realistic, form. Chivalry and honor was accorded to men of rank, not to the rank and file. There was no reason for a knight not to hack down peasant scum other than offending another knight or impacting his own labor force. And the term hazing we use in relation to frats and sororities today was actually something young knights did to unprotected noble women. What we identify with as chivalry didn't emerge until the latter 14th and 15th centuries.[/quote']

 

That varies. For every Edward I blinding a chapman for walking in the road or Edward III raping the Countess of Salisbury there is a King Louis IX or King Olaf, recognised as a saint for holding nobles to account for their crimes against commoners, or a Richard I treating saracens with chivalry.

 

Some people understood the parable of the Good Samaritan, even in the feudal nobility.

[Outsider]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

There is also no indication from Q-man's description that the mercenary company in question was an obstacle to the completion of any sort of military mission. It soulds to me more like the "mission" in this case was primarily the fattening of the character's purses that will result from the sale of an entire mercentary company's weapons, armor, and horses. I could be wrong, but thats what im reading into it.

 

As to what to do about it, well, that is mostly up to the GM. As an individual character, about all you can do is roleplay your remorse. If the other characters cant be brought around to being remorseful also, then your character will have to decide that they have become corrupted, and act accordingly. Unfortunately this could lead to a good deal of player-player friction, depending on the nature of your character's actions once he determines that his comrades have slipped into evil and have no interest in redeeming themselves. Not character-character... player-player.

[Vondy]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

There is also no indication from Q-man's description that the mercenary company in question was an obstacle to the completion of any sort of military mission.

No?

 

/snip

 

Now mind you a civil war rages around us and they were on the other side,

 

/snip

The elimination of enemy forces isn't a legitimate war-time action?

 

Sounds pretty military to me.

[Outsider]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

I was thinking more along the lines of some sort of mission more complicated than attrition. You know... blow up the bridge that reinforcements have to move over, steal the the Paymaster's chest so that all the mercenaries serving the other side desert, that kind of thing.

 

The fact that there was a civil war going and the mercenaries were on the other side sounds a lot more like a rationalization that makes it "OK" to kill them all and loot their gear.

[Markdoc]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

Comparing this situation to modern warfare or covert ops is beside the point: it's not the same. Modern commanders rarely agree to meet on an open field at an agreed date, but medieval and ancient commanders often did. Modern armies rarely settle battles based on single combat, or advance in front of the lines to taunt the enemy, but both ocurred often in the past.

 

Beorthnoth lost his army against the invading saxons because he refused to attack them while they were at a disadvantage (as did the Duke of Sung, leading to Mao Tse-Tung's famous quote). Despite what moderns would regards as a stupid (and costly) mistake, we know Beorthnoth's name because he was celebrated as a hero.

 

A good contrast was an FH game we played a while back - there were two knights. Mine was a sergeant from a miltary order, who had been knighted for battle field prowess. After years of fighting goblinoids in the mountains his attitude to combat was simple: "Kill 'em clean, kill 'em quick, don't get hurt". The other PC - a knight fostered on legends of chivalry - was appalled at my low-life attitude to combat, which (he thought) was the essence of the knightly arts. He thought that this sort of nastiness was what happened when you promoted commoners above their status. So in context, the character's reaction appears to be the right one.

 

cheers, Mark

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

It soulds to me more like the "mission" in this case was primarily the fattening of the character's purses that will result from the sale of an entire mercentary company's weapons' date=' armor, and horses. I could be wrong, but thats what im reading into it.[/quote']

 

Greed and Wealth had nothing to do with it. They were in the employ of the enemy and therefore targets. Our group for the most part are successful adventurers with a great deal of personal wealth and two of us are Landed Knights. My PC is an elf and views wealth as a game (one he just happens to be very good at).

 

As to what to do about it' date=' well, that is mostly up to the GM. As an individual character, about all you can do is roleplay your remorse. If the other characters cant be brought around to being remorseful also, then your character will have to decide that they have become corrupted, and act accordingly. Unfortunately this could lead to a good deal of player-player friction, depending on the nature of your character's actions once he determines that his comrades have slipped into evil and have no interest in redeeming themselves. Not character-character... player-player.[/quote']

 

I broached this with the group and I have decided to role play his regret and try to redeem himself.

 

Peace

 

QM.

[SirWilliam]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

Ok, while I don't see anything immoral about doing a commando strike on an enemy encampment, it's also not terribly heroic in the traditional sense.

 

I guess it comes down to this: Are the PC's "heroes" or are the PC's "rich bad-asses that are only concerned with winning at any cost"?

 

IMO a truly Heroic bunch would have awakened the camp and challenged them all to single combat or to surrender immediately. Sure you might have died, but it would have been with style and people would have talked about it for years.

 

Killing all the mercs in their beds might have been effective, but it doesn't really do much to build the PC's reputations except as cold-blooded killers.

[Guest joen00b]

Re: When Heroes become Villians

 

Out of curiousity' date=' why was VIPER engaged in random killing?? Usually, they avoid stuff like that in public places as bad publicity ( at least 5e ).[/quote']

 

Oh, this was many, many years ago, 4th edition all the way, no Viper Handbook/Sourcebook like Steve has created for us (Hero System players are being downright spoiled with all the materials Steve and Company are writing up).

 

I was living in California at the time and decided to get the groups attention with something really big that would hit home. Most the group were 49er's fan (I'm a Bengals fan, and was ridiculed all the time for it), so I killed off their precious football team, MWAHAHAHA, erm, I mean, uh, what were we talking about?