Champions vs. Mechanon

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

Major error in the battle. Mechanon should get an immediate Casual Str roll to break out of the weak entangles that hit him. Casual Str on 60 Str means that the wimpy 3 Def 3 Body or 2 Def 2 Body entangles most likely won't hold him' date=' leaving him with full DCV.[/quote']

 

From the FAQ:

Q: Is an Entangled character immediately at 0 DCV until he breaks free, regardless of the relative power of the Entangle and himself? For example, could a character attack a “brick†with a measly Entangle 2d6 and reduce him to DCV 0 until the brick’s Phase comes up and he breaks out with Casual STR?

 

A: An Entangled character’s DCV immediately drops to 0, so yes, technically speaking, the tactic you suggest is a possible one. As always, though, the GM should leaven his interpretation of the rules with some common sense and dramatic sense. For example, the GM might let the Entangled character try to shrug out of it immediately using Casual STR (just as characters who are Grabbed get to, per 5E 256). However, this may grant an unfair advantage to high-STR characters, unless the GM grants a similar “casual attack†ability to characters with Energy Blast and the like.

 

Obviously, if PCs start to abuse the “quickie Entangle for 0 DCV†tactic, the GM should forbid it, weaken it, or start using it on them so much they learn the error of their ways. (emphasis mine)

 

It's a optional rule. To my knowledge, it is not stated explicitly in the H5 rulebook. Since I was using that as my reference during the battle, and I could find nothing about it when I looked (pp 108 and 283), Mechanon is stuck with a 0 DCV when Entangled. Important to note this would have been true of Steadfast and Megaera as well.

 

In all honesty, the 0 DCV bothered me during the fight. I felt the loss of the top damage dice when he was attacked balanced it out a little (not perfectly), and he was never Entangled for more than a fraction of a Segment anyway. Besides, the way I was rolling hot and cold, he would have rolled three ones on his Casual STR rolls anyway.

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Same Machine...Different Meat

 

You do realize that the yellow text of your battle description is totally unreadable against the white default background of the Hero Boards? I essentially couldn't read nearly half of your post' date=' and therefore I didn't bother to read it at all. [/quote']

 

Y'know, I never thought anyone would not be using the blessed color scheme of Gray and Green. You're right Treb, I'm sorry. I've edited all of my notes to black. Hopefully there aren't anymore reading issues.

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

In a way' date=' the MC-8 just further proves the point that the Champions (and Mechanon himself) aren't as well made as they could be.[/quote']

 

Well, yes and no. I think they are pretty well designed for each other. Against the PC group of your standard experienced HERO wonks, like the MC-8, either crumples. (I mean, really. Both Defender and Nighthawk have a 25 DEX? Who buys their DEX to 25?!)

 

If I were running this as an adventure, Mechanon would have generated a couple of robots from the Forklift to keep Stalker and El Agu...er...The Sting busy. That might tip the battle more into Metal-head's favor.

[Grailknight]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

Minor quibbles with an otherwise excellent example

 

1-Mechanon should fly, he has the power at 0 END and it really changes the battle when people can't reach him. At the very least he should brace with it.

 

2-Lady Liberty should have been blind when she awoke, you take the effects of a mpa all at once.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Same Machine...Different Meat

 

Y'know' date=' I never thought anyone would not be using the blessed color scheme of Gray and Green. You're right Treb, I'm sorry. I've edited all of my notes to black. Hopefully there aren't anymore reading issues.[/quote']Not really a problem, Beauxdeigh. I appreciate your thoughtfullness. I very much prefer the grey and green color scheme myself, but there were just so many posts and other items in odd colors such as red and green which just don't show against the grey backgrounds (It doesn't help that the boards use alternating medium and dark grays for each post) that I eventually switched back to the uninspiring but readable default.

 

Bland. Bleh.

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

Minor quibbles with an otherwise excellent example

 

1-Mechanon should fly, he has the power at 0 END and it really changes the battle when people can't reach him. At the very least he should brace with it.

 

I suppose you're right, and later in the battle he probably should have. However, I always picture the menacing machines of immense might facing their foes on foot until the fight forces them to take to the air for tactical reasons.

 

2-Lady Liberty should have been blind when she awoke' date=' you take the effects of a mpa all at once.[/quote']

 

Well, damn, you're right. Sorry, folks. I called it a bit too soon it seems. Probably would have went into Phase 12. Of course, both Liberty and Steadfast would have had their vision at that point, and the MC-8 would likely remain the winners. Still, one or two more phases is a loooong time against Mechanon.

[caris]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

Well' date=' yes and no. I think they are pretty well designed for [i']each other[/i]. Against the PC group of your standard experienced HERO wonks, like the MC-8, either crumples. (I mean, really. Both Defender and Nighthawk have a 25 DEX? Who buys their DEX to 25?!)

 

I do! I do! (Of course, part of that is because I don't allow the use of Lightning Reflexes if the amount of it you buy wouldn't change your CV anyways.)

[Southern Cross]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

Actually the only reason to buy DEX 25 I can think of is to go before characters with a DEX of 24 or lower.For all other gaming purposes,you're better off buying DEX 24 & spending the extra 2 points on a 2-point skill level.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

RE: Mechanon Flying. At least against the Champions (I'm not yet able to spare the money for the Digital Hero issue with the MC-8), this actually means much less than you think. 3 of the 5 have flying themselves, and Ironclad can still reach a low-flying opponent (5" or less) with a half-phase leap -- meaning Mechanon will have to fly upwards either a full move or two half-phases to be out of his reach, and even then Ironclad could attempt a Move By/Move Thru until Mechanon is more than 10" up. So it really only hoses Nightduck.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

Actually,if I remember his character sheet corectly,Nighthawk has Swinging,so if the Champions are in a city,he could swing up to hit a flying Mechanon.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

15" of swinging to be exact. In my case there wasn't a tall enough building on the "Rosies" map to justify swinging 8" up...

[Southern Cross]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

Fair enough.

[Agent X]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

15" of swinging to be exact. In my case there wasn't a tall enough building on the "Rosies" map to justify swinging 8" up...

Makes me think of a creative fastball special. Imagine Nighthawk setting his swingline on a post 3" up and being propelled by Ironclad. Then imagine him letting loose some slack as he swings in an upward arc to swing up over and onto the back of Mechanon! Now that would be cool.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

Which is why he never tried it...

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

Flying would still give an edge, especially since only Defender is as fast as he is.

[Chuckg]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

I accept as a matter of reality that player-designed characters will usually be at least slightly more efficient than canon writeups. Lord knows the characters in my campaign are.

 

Well, that's because:

 

a) Unless I deliberately restrain myself, I am a point-hacking bitch of the most extreme kind(*), and

 

Jeff let me get away with chaining together "Stop Sign" and "Caution" powers, combos, and synergy tricks that no other DM I've ever met would even /consider/, let alone actually /sanction/. Hell, I've known DM's that would've beat me with a frickin' chair just for /asking/ for some of those things.

 

... of course, given what Jeff's design skills are, and what kind of villain line-up he's got waiting for us, we're gonna need everything we got plus everything we didn't think of in time.

 

 

 

 

(*) ... and I helped everybody fine-tune their character writeups for maximum munch^H^H^H^H^H efficiency.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

Flying would still give an edge' date=' especially since only Defender is as fast as he is.[/quote']

 

An edge? Not much of one, given a> Mechanon's lack of range skills (you could argue he doesn't need them with 7 regular-strength though) and b> the fact that unless the combat gets dragged out the few inches he has on everyone else won't really add up until a few phases.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

Um, wha??

 

Mechanon has lots of ranged skill. I mean, seven levels??

[TheEmerged]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

I mentioned the seven, regular strength ones. He however doesn't have any ranged levels (the "telescopic" only affects his PER rolls). That means he's lowering his OCV -- and while the 7 levels could be used to compensate for that, he's better off spending them on DCV and counteracting, say, the Rapid Fire penalties if this optional manuever is allowed.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

Yeah, but if he's got a range advantage, he won't *need* the DCV levels.

[Hermit]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

Darn it, can't find my "Champions Genre" book, so alas, can not join in the grand experiment.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

A note on Mechanon flying - remember, if he takes Knockback, he has to take a half-phase to reorient himself, so taking a flying half-move would chew the rest of his phase.

 

In my sample combat, Mechanon was always taking Knockback and burning half-phases.

[Koshka]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

I got a Champions plus Kinetic versus Mechanon plus four of his summoned robots fight done at work while I was covering for a co-worker, and finally got the notes typed up.

 

Setup: the warehouse map from the Resource Kit. The map is oriented so the large door is north. Mechanon is in the center of the map, as determined by the folds in it. Servitor robots 1 and 2 are side by side, 4 hexes north of Mechanon, numbers 3 and 4 are side by side 4 hexes south of him (slightly offset to miss the crates). Sapphire is on the roof, ready to blast through the skylight I placed three hexes north of the forklift. Ironclad and Defender have just entered through the north door. Nighthawk, Kinetik and Witchcraft have just entered the south door. Nighthawk made his Security Systems and Lockpicking rolls to get in without setting off any alarms, but Kinetik rolled a 13 on his everyman Stealth so Mechanon knows they're there. Witchcraft's VPP is set to her Spell Of Vitality.

 

Turn 0, Phase 12

Kinetic makes a half move and Rapid Punches robot number 2. His OCV is 10, and he hits with a 10. Kinetic does 7 BODY, the robot takes 1.

 

Nighthawk makes a half move to the west between the crates and tosses a Thermite Pellet at robot number 4. His overall level is on DCV, no range adjustment, so final OCV is 8. A roll of 5 hits the hex, and the pellet does 2 BODY Killing AP, the robot takes 1.

 

Defender flies 8" south, puts his levels onto OCV, and fires an Electric Blast at Mechanon. With range adjustment, OCV is 8. Defender misses with a 12.

 

Mechanon returns fire with a combination Autofire Energy Bolt and Tangle-Cable on Defender. His overall levels are on OCV, his levels with his primary weapons array can't be used. Range adjustment makes OCV a 9, and a roll of 13 misses.

 

Sapphire flies through the skylight, moves forward 5", and fires a Power Bolt I at Mechanon. Her OCV is 8, and she hits with an 11. She rolls 52 STUN/15 BODY with 10" Knockback. Mechanon takes 22 STUN, flies backward 5" to the corner of the office, and takes 5d6 KB damage (interior walls average 3 DEF/3 BODY) which will bounce off his defences.

 

Witchcraft and Ironclad roll to see who goes first, Witchcraft wins. She flies 8" west to back up Nighthawk, puts levels on OCV, and calls Witchfire on robot number 3. Her OCV is 9, she hits with a 13 and does 7 BODY, of which the robot takes 3.

 

Ironclad goes for a Leaping Move-Through on Mechanon. A roll of 12 hits the hex, and while his HTH levels don't count for this a roll of 11 hits the half-DCV Mechanon. Ironclad rolls 18 dice of damage for 63 STUN/20 BODY and 18" Knockback. Mechanon takes 33 STUN, slides across the floor 7", and is embedded in a crate by the remaining 11". Knockback damage is 41 STUN/12 BODY; Mechanon takes 11 STUN and the crate (DEF 4/BODY 7) is history.

 

The robots are next. Mechanon doesn't bother ordering numbers 1 and 2 to go after Ironclad, because he knows it would be a waste of time. Instead, those two attack Kinetic. OCV 5, they roll 15 and 12 and miss. Robots 3 and 4 go after Nighthawk -- they can't reach Witchcraft, she's in the air. OCV 5, they miss with rolls of 10 and 13.

 

Post-12 Recovery

Mechanon is down to 44 STUN after recovering, everyone else is at full.

 

Turn 1, Phase 2

Kinetic doesn't have the turn mode to loop around his two robots with Hyper-Running to keep his force field up, and I completely spaced the fact that he could have used his normal running. Anyway, he figures his costume will protect him against these things, stands still, and uses his Vibro-Grip on robot 2. OCV 9, an 8 will hit. He does 5 BODY Killing AP, the robot takes 4.

 

Nighthawk punches number 4. OCV 8, a 9 will hit. He does 10 BODY, the robot takes 4.

 

Mechanon gets up, puts all his levels into OCV, and fires an Offensive Energy Bolt at Ironclad. Adjusted OCV is 11, and he hits with a 7. He rolls 53 STUN/15 BODY and 10" Knockback, Ironclad takes 25 STUN and goes back 3" (no point in rolling KB damage).

 

Sapphire makes a half-move forward and fires another Power Bolt I. OCV 8, she misses with a 15.

 

Turn 1, Phase 3

Defender makes a half-move forward and fires an Electric Blast. His OCV with range is an 8, and he hits with a 10. Defender rolls 33 STUN/9 BODY and 0" KB, Mechanon takes 3 STUN and is back on his rear.

 

Once again Witchcraft wins the roll-off. She calls down more Witchfire on robot 3, OCV is still 9, and a 13 hits. She does 8 BODY, the robot takes 4.

 

Ironclad gets up and makes a half-move leap, putting himself within 2" of Mechanon. A 15 just barely hits the hex.

 

Robots 1 and 2 try to hit Kinetic -- a 12 misses, but a 7 hits exactly. The robot does 17 STUN/6 BODY and 1" KB, Kinetic takes 2 STUN and goes back 1". He makes his Breakfall roll easily with an 8, so he's still on his feet.

 

Robots 3 and 4 try to hit Nighthawk. They miss with an 11 and a 7.

 

Turn 1, Phase 4

Kinetic moves 3" to put himself beside robot 2 and uses his Vibro-Grip again. He hits with a 13, doing 5 BODY Killing AP. The robot takes 4 BODY and is severely damaged.

 

Nighthawk tells Witchcraft he can finish off these two and to help the others. He then punches robot 4, connecting with a 10. Nighthawk rolls 10 BODY, the robot takes 4 and is looking as bad as robot 2.

 

Mechanon gets up again and fires Explosive Projectiles, centered on the hex behind Defender. He has one level on DCV and all the rest set to increase STUN damage. A 10 will hit the hex, the area of effect will catch Defender, Sapphire, Ironclad, Kinetic ... and robots 1 and 2, but it's not like Mechanon cares about that. Mechanon himself is just outside the area of effect, gotta love Absolute Range Sense. For simplicity's sake, I just rolled damage once: 38 STUN/9 BODY. Anyone flying gets 8" of Knockback, those on the ground will only get 2". Defender takes 18 STUN, is thrown forward 7", and hits the warehouse wall (for 1 die KB damage, why bother?). Sapphire takes 14 STUN, is thrown forward 5" and hits the warehouse wall herself about 3" from Defender -- once again, there's no point in rolling KB damage because it'll just bounce. Ironclad takes 10 STUN and goes nowhere. Kinetic takes 12 STUN, is knocked back 2", and blows his Breakfall roll with a 16. The robots take 5 BODY each, which will put number 2 into negative BODY. I forgot to roll KB damage for robot 1, so let's just say it bounced.

 

Sapphire makes an INT roll (with a 9) to remember some of the tactical drills Nighthawk and Ironclad have been putting her through. She turns and fires a Stun Bolt at Mechanon. She hits with a 6, and does 19 STUN NND. Mechanon doesn't have an Energy FF, so he takes it all.

 

Turn 1, Phase 5

Defender calls out a maneuver code and holds action.

 

This time Ironclad wins the roll-off. Ironclad and Defender both make their Teamwork rolls to coordinate on Mechanon. Ironclad steps forward, Pushes his STR, puts all his levels on OCV and swings. Adjusted OCV 11, he hits with a 10. Defender puts all his levels on OCV and fires an Overload Blast, hitting with an 8. Ironclad does 51 STUN/16 BODY and 9" Knockback, Defender does 30 STUN/10 BODY and 5" Knockback. Defender's damage will bounce, but Mechanon takes 21 STUN from Ironclad. Defender and Ironclad were on opposite sides of Mechanon, so between them they'll do 10 dice of KB and would push Mechanon 4" toward Defender if there weren't more crates in the way. 35 STUN/8 BODY, Mechanon takes 5 STUN which puts him at -4. The extra KB damage won't do anything.

 

At this point, I figured I could wrap the fight. Three heroes go before Mechanon gets a recovery, and while Nighthawk probably couldn't get there and still attack Witchcraft and Kinetic could. The remaining three robots are damaged enough that they'll be no problem to polish off. (Besides, I had some customers coming in about this point .)

 

I may try another fight without Kinetic, but I don't think it would make that much difference in the outcome.

[Guest Keneton]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

Although I have not had the time to read all of the posts on this thread, nor the time to analyze the respective ER's of the combatants, I can tell you about my experiences with these combatants.

 

At this years Origins I had the pleasure of facing the Champions with Mechana (first), and then later Mechanon. During the Mechana fight The Champions were on the defensive in all three sessions. They had with them Kinetic and Charm Girl (mentioned in Champions Universe- A flying lucky brick media darling). Eventually numbers paid off during all three sessions.

 

Against Mechanaon, most groups had the same luck. (Although in one game Witchcraft was put into negative body.) In almost every case the deck was stacked against Mechanon, or he may have won. I have no doubt the fight can be won from either side and is quite close. With best tactics I'd side with the Champions. mathematically I'd say they were 2-1 favorites.

 

My 2 ep.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Champions vs. Mechanon

 

Well, that's because:

 

a) Unless I deliberately restrain myself, I am a point-hacking bitch of the most extreme kind(*), and

 

Jeff let me get away with chaining together "Stop Sign" and "Caution" powers, combos, and synergy tricks that no other DM I've ever met would even /consider/, let alone actually /sanction/. Hell, I've known DM's that would've beat me with a frickin' chair just for /asking/ for some of those things.

 

... of course, given what Jeff's design skills are, and what kind of villain line-up he's got waiting for us, we're gonna need everything we got plus everything we didn't think of in time.

 

 

 

 

(*) ... and I helped everybody fine-tune their character writeups for maximum munch^H^H^H^H^H efficiency.

 

 

Quite true, especially considering what we are seeing in the way of original villains. I mean, between the guy with the Drain SPD and Transfer SPD, and the guy who looks to be basically Dr Doom Junior with more magic. . .