accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

[Hyper-Man]

In the Cost of strength vs. benefit thread the topic migrated to one of what kind of character would win in a fight between "X" vs. "Y" mainly to prove a point about the over-efficiency of STR (or even DEX) in the current rules.

 

This thread is NOT intended to be a continuation of that topic.

 

This thread IS intended to be an open forum to accept suggestions for ground rules that we can all agree on to THEN be used to create booklegal characters to post on a future *Grudge Match! thread to be set up to allow all board members to vote on which posted character they think would win in a round-robin tournament against ALL the others.

 

*Grudge Match! means that combat may involve different types of situations or terrain like paint-ball.

 

I would suggest that terrain and situational variables be considered from both sides. That is, during first encounter "X" must get past "Y" and then reverse it. The idea is that in certain situations one character may not NEED to fight an opponent to render him ineffective. This is just one method of testing it.

• 1st example: getting past opponent to diffuse a bomb, rescue hostage etc..
  
• 2nd example: different environments besides an empty field;crowded warehouse, forest, rocky mountainside, etc..
  
• 3rd ?
  

As a starting point for character building guidlines I suggest the following ground rules:

• 350 point characters
  
• no OIHID characters
  
• no OIF characters
  
• maximum 19 CV (OCV or DCV) with manuevers (like dodge) and levels
  
• maximum 19 DC attack with manuevers (like haymaker or movethrough)
  
• maximum 8 speed
  
• maximum 90 active points in any one power
  
• Multipowers and EM's must have tight themes (*FRED example)
  
• no VPP's
  

Please feel free to post any constructive suggestions, ideas or comments!

[Gary]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

Here are a few suggestions:

 

1) No limitations allowed.

 

2) No more than +2 worth of advantages allowed per power.

 

3) Megascale not allowed.

 

4) Charges not allowed (It's too easy to abuse this when you're expecting only one fight)

 

5) No End Reserve for the same reason as charges.

 

6) No Extra Dimensional movement allowed.

 

7) Rapid Fire not allowed.

[Dust Raven]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

I don't see the need for point caps or level caps on anything. If you want nothing other than a 70d6 EB (which would cost 35 END, when you'd only have 20), why not? In the end, we're looking at what each individual build can do versus any other individual build. No maximums would accomplish this.

 

As for allowed Modifiers, I'd say anything goes, again regardless of level/value. The only restrictions I can think of would be no Limitations that aren't limiting during these scenarios (OIHID or No Noncombat Movement, for example). Since even this may be a case by case basis, there should probably be a selected or elected judge to determine what's legal and what's not.

 

But ultimately, I think each person should be limited to entering a single character. Multiforms and Duplicates are welcome, but no multiple entries.

[Agent X]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

Perhaps a random set of terrain features and circumstances could be written up in a table? That way most any limitation could come up.

 

Chance of being "prepared" for combat 85% - That way OIHID and OIF suits could be a problem.

 

What time of day is it? So limitations about darkness and light could come up.

1-4 Daytime

5-6 Nighttime

 

What location? This is where we could get creative.

Open field, forest, mountain, on an object in space, and so on

 

Of course, this would be a LOT of work.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

I was suggesting CV, DC and Active point caps because I wanted the entries to at least partially resemble some of the characters that most of us use in our actual games, which leads into something I mentioned earlier:

 

I would suggest that terrain and situational variables be considered from both sides. That is, during first encounter "X" must get past "Y" and then reverse it. The idea is that in certain situations one character may not NEED to fight an opponent to render him ineffective. This is just one method of testing it.

• 1st example: getting past opponent to diffuse a bomb, rescue hostage etc..
  
• 2nd example: different environments besides an empty field;crowded warehouse, forest, rocky mountainside, etc..
  

I am trying to focus on a framework to test role-playable characters with. That is, being able to beat the other guy in a fight might not always be necessary. Some character concepts work better if they are defending something due to low movement ability, others can move fast but not do much in certain situations. In some game circumstances either might be more usefull than the other. What I am suggesting is that we come up with at least 3 or 4 common hero vs. villian situations and create a poll to compare how our wombats do on either side of in Each of these situations.

 

So there are 2 distinct but related goals of this thread.

1. define the 3-4 reversable hero vs. villian situations.
   
2. define the building rules for said heroes/villains
   

[Dust Raven]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

I see what you're getting at Hyper-Man. I still think there should be no caps, just a list of "restricted" stuff, like Powers, Skills or Modifiers that might not apply to the purpose of this contest. I say "restricted" and not "disallowed" because I'd prefer to keep it open enough for creative concepts. For this little tourney though, I think rule abuse should not only be allowed, but encouraged. But what I don't want is something that violates the rules (like taking a Limitation or Disad that isn't limiting).

 

Speaking of Disads, there should be a list that automatically apply to the character. Hunted by other contestants. Watched by the contest judges. Social Lim: Metagame Test Subject. And so forth. Anything else goes, but should follow the "if it isn't a disadvantage, it isn't worth any points" rule. Most Distinvtive Features would be right out (those that reveal something of the character's abilities/powers would be allowed, but their value might depend upon the types of contestants). Psych Lims that would only apply in "normal" games shouldn't be allowed (no "in love with wife").

 

Hunteds should either be entirely disallowed exept as above, or make creative use of. I'm almost thinking they should be allowed, but a reason behind why they are hunted should be provided. Then, during any contest that hunted might show up and add to the confusion. Sounds a bit chaotic, but it would make a Hunted worth the points you get from it. Susceptibilities and Vulnerabilities should be encouraged, but if no one enters a character with something that will affect a certain Susc or Vul, then the judges can make sure the environment will (as often as their Disad says).

 

Reputation and Social Lims are most likely worthless, but maybe not. At least I can't think of any that would apply to character that only exist in an abstract tourney.

 

And take some Unluck. Unluck is always fun.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

I see what you're getting at Hyper-Man. I still think there should be no caps' date=' just a list of "restricted" stuff, like Powers, Skills or Modifiers that [i']might[/i] not apply to the purpose of this contest. I say "restricted" and not "disallowed" because I'd prefer to keep it open enough for creative concepts. For this little tourney though, I think rule abuse should not only be allowed, but encouraged. But what I don't want is something that violates the rules (like taking a Limitation or Disad that isn't limiting).

Maybe we need to have a poll on the type of restrictions we use for character creation too.

[Dust Raven]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

Is there a way to post a poll that allows multiple selections?

[lemming]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

Perhaps a random set of terrain features and circumstances could be written up in a table? That way most any limitation could come up.

 

Chance of being "prepared" for combat 85% - That way OIHID and OIF suits could be a problem.

 

What time of day is it? So limitations about darkness and light could come up.

1-4 Daytime

5-6 Nighttime

 

What location? This is where we could get creative.

Open field, forest, mountain, on an object in space, and so on

 

Of course, this would be a LOT of work.

Well, base the chances of given terrain on limitations that the characters have. If someone has a -1 limit on their powers, then there's a 50% chance that the terrain will have that limit incorporated.

 

Hmm, still could be messy.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

Is there a way to post a poll that allows multiple selections?

Yes,

 

I have seen other polls that would allow multiple selections by each voter. They still only allow you to visit the voting booth once though.

[Enforcer84]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

COmpletely off topic, but I ran into a COmbat Wombat on the Champions server for City of Heroes. Any chance its you Hyper-Man?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

COmpletely off topic' date=' but I ran into a COmbat Wombat on the Champions server for City of Heroes. Any chance its you Hyper-Man?[/quote']

Nope,

I don't even own a copy of the game. My PC is too old to handle it unfortunately. Though I did get on a friends account and created a Hyper-Man scrapper that looked pretty good except I couldn't get the black oval in his emblem. I don't think it was on the champions server though and this was weeks ago.

 

I got the term Combat Wombat from Mentor. He said that was something that his gaming group (including Trebuchet) had been throwing around for years!

[Doug McCrae]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

The only rules should be those in the Big Black Book. I wanna see some *monsters* dammit!

[John Desmarais]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

Here are a few suggestions:

 

1) No limitations allowed.

 

Say what?

 

 

John D.

[Gary]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

Say what?

 

 

John D.

 

 

It's too easy to apply limitations that can be minimized or abused in a contest such as this. Far better to get rid of the loopholes up front.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

It's too easy to apply limitations that can be minimized or abused in a contest such as this. Far better to get rid of the loopholes up front.

I think there are a few limitations that are harder to abuse than others. extra end, activate rolls, no range, limited range, are all legit limitations with very defined consequences. I am sure there are others could be added to this abuse proof category. The idea here is to help define the ones that are NOT so abuse proof. Not to just outlaw everything. Same reason I do not advocate unlimited DC, CV and Active points.

 

I was hoping that a majority of interested parties could come up with some character generation ground rules common to actual playable games to then create 'munchkin' or 'combat wombats' within the agreed upon framework to then give everyone 'apples to apples' to compare against one another since with out a common framework for rules, the exercise has very little relavance on our normal games.

 

just my 2 yen.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

As I think a previous poster mentioned you could keep every limitation provided it actually limits by the correct amount. So for example, for Power Doesn't Work On Tuesdays (-1/4), there'd be a 20% chance it was Tuesday the day of the fight. For OIF and OIHID I think I might rule that the character starts the combat in normal ID, without his power armour or whatever.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

A lot depends on which school of thought you're taking here. There seem to be two approaches.

 

The first is a pure cage match - build the most combat-capable character possible. This would seem to argue for things like:

 

- restricted limitations and disadvantages (ie only those that will come up in combat)

 

- no AP caps, advantage caps, CV caps, etc.

 

- probably need some "disallowed" abilities, mainly things like "megascale flight usable against others"

 

The second is for role-playable characters. In this case, we probably need things like:

 

- AP caps, CV caps, etc.

 

- still some "disallowed" abilities

 

- no restriction on "in concept" disadvantages and limitations

 

- perhaps a lower total points limit to accomodate non-combat abilities (eg. all characters have 300 or 325 points - the other 25 or 50 represent non-combat abilities like sciences, COM, Megascale movement, whatever)

 

- maybe a similar structure for disadvantages - ie you only need 50 or 75 points of disad's, but all must be combat-related (the other 75 or 100 are assumed to be non-combat disad's like Hunted, Dist features, etc.)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

A lot depends on which school of thought you're taking here. There seem to be two approaches.

 

The first is a pure cage match - build the most combat-capable character possible. This would seem to argue for things like:

 

- restricted limitations and disadvantages (ie only those that will come up in combat)

 

- no AP caps, advantage caps, CV caps, etc.

 

- probably need some "disallowed" abilities, mainly things like "megascale flight usable against others"

 

The second is for role-playable characters. In this case, we probably need things like:

 

- AP caps, CV caps, etc.

 

- still some "disallowed" abilities

 

- no restriction on "in concept" disadvantages and limitations

 

- perhaps a lower total points limit to accomodate non-combat abilities (eg. all characters have 300 or 325 points - the other 25 or 50 represent non-combat abilities like sciences, COM, Megascale movement, whatever)

 

- maybe a similar structure for disadvantages - ie you only need 50 or 75 points of disad's, but all must be combat-related (the other 75 or 100 are assumed to be non-combat disad's like Hunted, Dist features, etc.)

Thanks for the eloquent explanation.

And yes, I started this thread with the 'second' school of thought in mind. If someone else wants to manage the 'wide-open' version as well, that's cool but It does not seem to have as much bearing on game balance as the 'controlled' version.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

Here are a few suggestions:

 

 

• 1) No limitations allowed.
  
• 2) No more than +2 worth of advantages allowed per power.
  
• 3) Megascale not allowed.
  
• 4) Charges not allowed (It's too easy to abuse this when you're expecting only one fight)
  
• 5) No End Reserve for the same reason as charges.
  
• 6) No Extra Dimensional movement allowed.
  
• 7) Rapid Fire not allowed.

Gary,

I agree with all of your suggestions except # 1) since activate rolls, costs extra end, no-range all have quantified effects that are difficult at best to abuse. Rather than attempt to name all that should be allowed It might be easier to just name the specific limitations we do not want to be used (and possibly abused).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

I have been thinking long and hard about the setting for the 'grudge match'. I really like the idea of have different scenarios to test more than just one on one combat abilities.

 

Paintball is my major inspiration to these ideas. Admittedly, it has been a few years since I played but I had a great time at a well organized business in Orlando. They had 4 playing areas, 2 indoor, 2 outdoor. The outdoor fields were pretty straightforward with wooden obstacles and goal/forts at either end which allowed capture the flag or team elimination rules to be used. One of the indoor fields was more of the same, with a balanced obstacle setup. The other indoor field was quite different. The organizers named the scenario Cops and Robbers. In it one team (the robbers) gets 5 minutes to setup inside the field to ambush the second team (the cops) which only has 2 entry points into the room. The only advantage the cops get is 2 lives for each team member with a 1 minute cooloff countdown before being able to re-enter. This scenario as well as all the others were played twice each with teams switching 'sides' to eliminate terrain as a deciding factor at the end of the day.

 

For our steel cage grudge match poll I suggest that voters judge each contestant against each and every other contestant based on the following 4 situations (#2 has to be considered twice).

 

 

1. Capture the Flag: start the contestants at gates an equal distance away from each other and put a Flag dead center between them. The goal is to get the Flag and then take it back through your starting gate.
   
2. Offense vs. Defense: Assume a time timelimit of about 1-2 minutes and that the scenario is played both ways for each contestant.
   1. 
      
   2. Defend your gate.
      
   3. Get through the other contestant's gate.
      

[*]Knock Out: the other contestant.

Notice, the objective of # 3 will not always be necessary to succeed at #'s 1 and 2 although that strategy could work. This type of format gives some incentives for use of powers besides those that just cause or prevent damage. Also, a contestant might be great at defending the gate in # 2 but lousy at getting through one defended by another contestant or visa-versa.

 

 

As always, coments and suggestions are welcome!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

 

For our steel cage grudge match poll I suggest that voters judge each contestant against each and every other contestant based on the following 4 situations (#2 has to be considered twice).

 

 

 

1. Capture the Flag: start the contestants at gates an equal distance away from each other and put a Flag dead center between them. The goal is to get the Flag and then take it back through your starting gate.
   
2. Offense vs. Defense: Assume a time timelimit of about 1-2 minutes and that the scenario is played both ways for each contestant.
   1. 
      
   2. Defend your gate.
      
   3. Get through the other contestant's gate.
      

[*]Knock Out: the other contestant.

Notice, the objective of # 3 will not always be necessary to succeed at #'s 1 and 2 although that strategy could work. This type of format gives some incentives for use of powers besides those that just cause or prevent damage. Also, a contestant might be great at defending the gate in # 2 but lousy at getting through one defended by another contestant or visa-versa.

I've already found one major problem with the above scenario layout. It might allow a fully invisible or darkness+n-ray type contestant with good movement abilities and a good attack to win 1, split 2 and win 3 against most opponents that lack Mental or AA attacks.

 

So maybe one or two more 'scenarios' are needed to balance out this and any other loopholes that this setup may have missed.

 

Any bright ideas Combat Wombat fans?

[Dust Raven]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

Looks like you're running into the problem with balancing the characters. Its a personal issue, at least for me, to make sure characters are balanced and fair within my game. I don't use a Rule of X or anything, just some common sense and my own idea of what's fair.

 

For a "game" like this, you either need to open the gates WIDE and let everything out, or someone has to not only set up some guidelines, but needs to arbitrate each character as to his "fairness" to the other characters. Some abilities are easier to abuse than others, especially witnin limits (Gary makes a solid point on this concerning STR, but without the limits, or with reduced limits, Gary's arguement doesn't hold water). I don't want to go through who knows how many entries to decide what's fair and balanced and what isn't. I want to make a combat wombat and have him beat stuff up and win a gaudy belt.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

Looks like you're running into the problem with balancing the characters. Its a personal issue, at least for me, to make sure characters are balanced and fair within my game. I don't use a Rule of X or anything, just some common sense and my own idea of what's fair.

 

For a "game" like this, you either need to open the gates WIDE and let everything out, or someone has to not only set up some guidelines, but needs to arbitrate each character as to his "fairness" to the other characters. Some abilities are easier to abuse than others, especially witnin limits (Gary makes a solid point on this concerning STR, but without the limits, or with reduced limits, Gary's arguement doesn't hold water). I don't want to go through who knows how many entries to decide what's fair and balanced and what isn't. I want to make a combat wombat and have him beat stuff up and win a gaudy belt.

I don't believe that it is a GIVEN that a STR based character will automatically be the best 'type' for this contest if using the limits I stated earlier. This is mainly due to the movement and sensing requirements that are part of the different scenarios.

 

Unless anyone can come up with some more scenarios I recommend using the ones I listed earlier and just give the 1 on 1 combat a value of 2 points and the winners of each of the other 3 contests 1 point, (remember the offense vs. defense is run twice) which makes it possible to win the overall grudge match without being able to actually win every 1 on 1 fight.

 

We can always run 2 different tournaments. Unlimited and Limited. What I have proposed so far is limited. This is what I am more interrested. I think the tournament format using 4 different goals could be used in both cases.

 

Please post any more comments regarding rules for all 3 areas of discussion.

• tournament format
  
• unlimitied creation rules
  
• limited creation rules
  

*In a few days I will create a poll to nail these down and then I will create either 1 or 2 more threads to submit contestant characters to be voted on by all judges/board members.

[Dust Raven]

Re: accepting rules suggestions for 1st Annual Combat Wombat Steel Cage Grudge Match!

 

Okay, I can do that. But the limited tourney shouldn't be called "combat wombat". I hear wombat and I think something Gary would make, not a balanced character (no offense Gary).