What the heck is BODY anyways?

[vivsavage]

I understand what BODY is used for in the Hero system, but what does it represent? It's not strength, it's not constitution, it's not ego/will, it's not size (is it?), it's not based on a combination of anything. I mean, you could have a guy who is 6'6" and weighs 300 lbs with a CON, STR and EGO of 20 and still have a BODY of 10 or something, so just what the heck is BODY anyways?

[L. Marcus]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

I understand what BODY is used for in the Hero system' date=' but what does it represent? It's not strength, it's not constitution, it's not ego/will, it's not size (is it?), it's not based on a combination of anything. I mean, you could have a guy who is 6'6" and weighs 300 lbs with a CON, STR and EGO of 20 and still have a BODY of 10 or something, so just what the heck is BODY anyways?[/quote']

He might have a brittle frame, he might be a bleeder, he may just have a sensitive nervous system and can be easily shocked . . . Or any of a number of things.

 

BODY is just how well you can take punishment, that's all. Where the BODY comes from is just a special effect.

[vivsavage]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

He might have a brittle frame, he might be a bleeder, he may just have a sensitive nervous system and can be easily shocked . . . Or any of a number of things.

 

BODY is just how well you can take punishment, that's all. Where the BODY comes from is just a special effect.

I understand that aspect. But I guess what I'm saying is that it has no relation to actual physical makeup? I'm thinking of changing BODY to equal the average of CON and STR. Seems more realistic to me.

[Simon]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

Not necessarily.

 

There can certainly be a strong correlation, but it is in no way required (realistically).

 

You can have a big, burly guy who never seems to get sick (high size, high STR, high CON) get shot in the arm in combat and die from the shock (simulated by a low BODY). Or you can have the scrawny, wiry guy who is always sick (low size, low STR, low CON) get shot multiple times in the gut, chest, legs, and just keep on going (simulated by a high BODY).

 

Special effect: the wiry guy had an extremely strong "will to live". Hero is not about special effects, though, it's about _effects_. The effect was that he was extremely hard to kill. He didn't have high defenses -- he was able to take a lot of damage and keep on going.

 

That's a high BODY.

 

It's not necessarily tied to high defenses, high STR, or high CON.

[L. Marcus]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

I understand that aspect. But I guess what I'm saying is that it has no relation to actual physical makeup? I'm thinking of changing BODY to equal the average of CON and STR. Seems more realistic to me.

That'd work, I guess . . . But then I'd advice you to up the cost for CON and STR by a point each, to keep balance. And if BODY would be a figured characteristic, a player should be able to raise and lower the score for two points a step. Makes sense?

 

If a player came to me with a character with the values that you gave in your example, I'd ask him to give a good rationale for the discrepancies, and if he had a good excuse, I'd let him play.

 

Who knows, it could be a source for inspiration. And trouble.

[L. Marcus]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

. . . And what Simon said.

[John Desmarais]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

I understand what BODY is used for in the Hero system' date=' but what does it represent? It's not strength, it's not constitution, it's not ego/will, it's not size (is it?), it's not based on a combination of anything. I mean, you could have a guy who is 6'6" and weighs 300 lbs with a CON, STR and EGO of 20 and still have a BODY of 10 or something, so just what the heck is BODY anyways?[/quote']

 

Body is whatever you want it be. Seriously. You can (and many do) consider it to be physical mass. I have also seen an argument made for body equating to "will to live" (the argument was made by a player trying to explain why his brick had a body of 10 - "he's never actually been hurt before, if someone actually gets bady damage through his defense he's going to go into shock and fold like a house of cards").

 

John D.

[Blue]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

For that matter, "What's Hit Points?". I mean they don't represent how strong or smart you are? Yet the determine how long you live in a fight.

 

Anyone remember when they were more commonly referred to as BODY PIPS? I could never use the word "Pip". I imagine neither could anyone else, and that's why it's shortened

[Doc Democracy]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

In my games I always explained it as life force. How strongly your soul is attached to your physical body.

 

I also used it to make high BODY characters more difficult to keep down - so recovery intervals below zero were based on multiples of BODY rather than multiples of 10.

 

 

Doc

[UltraRob]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

Hit Points were always explained to me as a an aggregate state representing toughness/will to live/life energy....I would consider BODY pretty much the same thing.

 

If it were a figured stat (not unreasonable), I would actually make it based on CON and EGO.

 

Rob

[L. Marcus]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

I also used it to make high BODY characters more difficult to keep down - so recovery intervals below zero were based on multiples of BODY rather than multiples of 10.

I like this, I think I'll steal it! Muahaha!

[John Desmarais]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

In my games I always explained it as life force. How strongly your soul is attached to your physical body.

 

I also used it to make high BODY characters more difficult to keep down - so recovery intervals below zero were based on multiples of BODY rather than multiples of 10.

 

 

Doc

 

 

One of the supplements for 3rd Edition Champions (I can't remember if it was Champions II or Champions III) suggested this as an optional rule to make Body a more meaningful stat.

 

 

John D.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

At its most basic, BODY is your ability to withstand the damage that kills you, and STUN is the ability to withstand damage that doesn't kill you. That's the obvious, mechanical aspect of it, of course, but it really does reflect a distinction that can be very useful in your game. For example, I've often seen people treat the SFX of STUN as real minor injuries - bruises, cuts, scrapes, minor aches and pains etc. - that don't actually put the character at risk. As has been mentioned earlier, BODY can reflect a combination of physical toughness and will to endure.

 

Let me give you a well-know example from fiction: Tolkien's hobbits. Little people who were easy to knock around, scuff up, render unconscious and the like; but killing them proved to be extraordinarily difficult. Low STUN, high BODY.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

BODY: the amount of damage your meat can take before it gives up and dies.

 

a low Body score means your body will fold quickly when presented with actual damage to it. a high Body score means you can keep going after the S.W.A.T. Team unloads a few rounds into you.

 

It can also be used to represent the fact that while a bullet is a bullet some people are a bit more resitent to them - they still get through all the time (low Defence) but they just can't seem to do that much tissue damage to the guy (high Body).

[Guest Kolava]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

Also, like you said, BODY can represent size. Say a bullet ruins a square foot of flesh (this is strictly speaking BODY, since the bullet also causes shock in the form of STUN)...that's bad for an unarmored human. But the same bullet hitting an unarmored Giant doesn't matter as much. The Giant doesn't have any more rPD (probably more PD) than the human, but there is simply more of him left after any given amount of damage than there would be with an equivalent human.

[vivsavage]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

For that matter, "What's Hit Points?". I mean they don't represent how strong or smart you are? Yet the determine how long you live in a fight.

Most systems that have hit points have it tied to STR (as in the forthcoming GURPS 4th edition) or CON (D&D, etc). The thing that puzzles me about HERO is that BODY isn't tied to anything. You can be super tough, super strong, super determined...yet you can have a wimpy BODY score. So I'm still puzzled as to what it is supposed to represent.

[vivsavage]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

Not necessarily.

 

There can certainly be a strong correlation, but it is in no way required (realistically).

 

You can have a big, burly guy who never seems to get sick (high size, high STR, high CON) get shot in the arm in combat and die from the shock (simulated by a low BODY). Or you can have the scrawny, wiry guy who is always sick (low size, low STR, low CON) get shot multiple times in the gut, chest, legs, and just keep on going (simulated by a high BODY).

 

Special effect: the wiry guy had an extremely strong "will to live". Hero is not about special effects, though, it's about _effects_. The effect was that he was extremely hard to kill. He didn't have high defenses -- he was able to take a lot of damage and keep on going.

 

That's a high BODY.

 

It's not necessarily tied to high defenses, high STR, or high CON.

Your example is a good one, but it seems that it's a reflection of EGO ("will to live"). So again, I'm not sure why BODY should be a separate attribute. Mr Long, what are your thoughts?

[L. Marcus]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

Most systems that have hit points have it tied to STR (as in the forthcoming GURPS 4th edition) or CON (D&D' date=' etc). The thing that puzzles me about HERO is that BODY isn't tied to anything. You can be super tough, super strong, super determined...yet you can have a wimpy BODY score. So I'm still puzzled as to what it is supposed to represent.[/quote']

As with so many things in HERO, BODY is what you, as a player and with the approval of the GM, want it to be. If you think that BODY is tied to being strong, buy equal amounts of STR and BODY. If you want it tied to willpower, tie it to EGO. If you want it tied to general healt and fitness, tie it to CON. Or a combination of all of the above. It's up to you and your GM.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

Think of EGO as your mind's willpower and BODY as your flesh's willpower.

 

just as a the mind can will you to live after severe physical trauma the body can continue to take punishment and keep going long after the psyche has checked out due to trauma.

 

Body let's you seperate mind and body from each other.

 

Hope that helps a little.

[Blue]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

Truthfully, this is how the two stats were explained to me and I never needed anything more...

 

"Hit points are the amount of points you can take before you die."

"BODY is like Hitpoints, Whereas STUN is the amount you can take before you're unconscious."

 

The other stats need a bit more padding out. Wtih BODY I never needed any further explanation.

[Agemegos]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

So I'm still puzzled as to what it is supposed to represent.

 

HERO System doesn't work that way. The design philosophy is that game features have effects, not fixed representations. And the users use the game features to represent what they want them to represent, reasoning from effects. The HERO System is a character description language, and the fact that a language allows you to speak nonsense if you wish is less of a problem than that it prevents you from saying something sensible. If you think that all large charcters ought to have high BODY and STR, nothing prevents you from designing them and insisting that they be designed that way. But if BODY were abolished it would be harder to produce a fair representation of the character whose body was reinforced or otherwise more robust than usual for his or her size.

 

Myself, I consider that to a certain extent BODY does represent size. If a character-player presented me with a design for a big bruiser with low BODY I'd send him or her back to the drawing-board. But in a superheroic campaign it can also represent that the character's body is made of something tougher than human flesh and bone, so that it takes more energy to produce each square centimetre of lesion. And in my SF setting, where athletes, police, and soldiers have their bones reinforced with tough composites, their tendons and sinews laced with strong fibres, their viscera and blood vessels and the walls of their thoraces and abdomens encased and laced with syntheitc mesh, I represent that with high BODY values.

 

In fact, I have more trouble understanding what PD and particularly ED might represent than BODY, which seems pretty straightforward to me.

[DrFurious]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

You can have a big' date=' burly guy who never seems to get sick (high size, high STR, high CON) get shot in the arm in combat and die from the shock (simulated by a low BODY). [/quote']

Or a high roll on the damage dice.

 

Or you can have the scrawny, wiry guy who is always sick (low size, low STR, low CON) get shot multiple times in the gut, chest, legs, and just keep on going (simulated by a high BODY).

Or low rolls on the damage dice; maybe coupled with defenses defined as "combat luck".

 

Special effect: the wiry guy had an extremely strong "will to live". Hero is not about special effects, though, it's about _effects_. The effect was that he was extremely hard to kill. He didn't have high defenses -- he was able to take a lot of damage and keep on going.

 

That's a high BODY.

 

It's not necessarily tied to high defenses, high STR, or high CON.

 

At some point tho, the game needs to be grounded on some basic physical assumptions. We see this in the other figured statistics like PD, ED, REC, etc. BODY is basically measuring your hit points and I see no real reason to have it as a primary characteristic. Compared to the other primary characteristics, it's out of place - no figured characteristic is based on it with the exception of Stun (which is also another form of hit points). Can you see a character making a BODY characteristic roll that wouldnt' be handled as a CON or STR roll? I dont' think so. Is it reasonable to have BODY independent from other physical characteristics like STR and CON? For the vast majority of games and concepts I'd say no. Any exceptions from this standard can easily be handled by buying a figured BODY characteristic up or down, or with an appropriate disadvantage.

 

I'm not so much disagreeing with your statements here on what BODY stands for but making a case for having BODY as a derived quality.

[Simon]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

Or a high roll on the damage dice.

 

Or low rolls on the damage dice; maybe coupled with defenses defined as "combat luck".

No, he was hit in the arm. The physical damage that he took was minimal, compared to that wiry guy. The wiry guy was shot all to hell and kept going because he was a bad SOB. The big guy flipped out because he had been shot (went into shock) and died.

 

Damage to the big guy was less than the damage to the little guy.

 

The little guy took damage. He took a lot of damage. He had ruptured internal organs, bleeding, etc. He just decided that it wasn't his time and so he kept on going.

 

This is, by the way, a very real story. One of the gentlemen that I train with used to run combat training with the FBI and was involved in numerous field operations. He was also a Marine in Vietnam for three tours of duty and trained with the Korean Tiger Marines.

 

There is a lot to be said for a strong "will to live". And it has little to do with ego, or what we think of as the EGO characteristic.

 

The fact of the matter is, while you can make generalities and say that bigger, stronger guys will tend to have higher BODY values than little, weaker guys, this does not always hold up and is very often incorrect in practice.

 

Which means that basing BODY off of other characteristics will make you want to sell it off on a sizable number of characters.

 

And since you can only sell off one figured characteristic, making BODY a figured characteristic will create far more problems than it "solves."

 

BODY is just fine the way it is, IMO. It is as concrete a concept as STR or CON. More so than CON, in many ways.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

One additional point,

besides not being coupled to CON or STR, BODY is also not coupled to fighting skill the way hit points in other systems usually are (not sure if this has changed much).

[DrFurious]

Re: What the heck is BODY anyways?

 

The little guy took damage. He took a lot of damage. He had ruptured internal organs, bleeding, etc. He just decided that it wasn't his time and so he kept on going.

 

There is a lot to be said for a strong "will to live". And it has little to do with ego, or what we think of as the EGO characteristic.

How not so? From a game mechanic standpoint where would you put a will to live characteristic? Alternatively, you could have an objective BODY characteristic (about the same for both examples), and use EGO-rolls to have the guy keep on going despite massive wounds. Sure, EGO may not be a precise fit here but it's a logical application IMO. The situations you've described seems to be more of a "death shock roll" rather than a function of BODY numerically being wittled away. At a certain point of physical damage, you're dead no matter what your "will to live".

 

The fact of the matter is, while you can make generalities and say that bigger, stronger guys will tend to have higher BODY values than little, weaker guys, this does not always hold up and is very often incorrect in practice.

Since much of Hero and Champions takes it's inspiration from comics and fiction, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a wiry guy situation who doesn't have a level of toughness manifesting in CON or STR. Often in this material you have a big, bad, tough guy taking punishment and not staying down.

 

Which means that basing BODY off of other characteristics will make you want to sell it off on a sizable number of characters.

 

While you'd probably disagree with me, I'd say that such a character would not be true to concept? IMO, a strong healthy character in most cases should be hard to put down. If you don't agree with me there, then none of my argument would sway you.

 

In some recent games with newbie players, I've found that most almost always almost ignore BODY purchases. If they don't neglect it, they are uncertain as to what level is a "good" value. This actually got them into trouble in combat where they were expecting to play a big, strong (high STR), healthy (high CON) character and got blasted to near death. It was very much counter to their expectations - and expectations are what is important here. While you may disagree with the expectation (and you may be right), I think it's more useful for the game to have the expectation "build in" to the game mechanics. A player won't be surprised if his character goes down easily if he had made the choice of buying his character's BODY down.

 

And since you can only sell off one figured characteristic' date=' making BODY a figured characteristic will create far more problems than it "solves."[/quote']

For most write-ups I've seen, few (if any) figured characteristics are bought down. Even so, if the character concept is reasonable, justified, and non-abusive, I'm sure that a GM will waive the restriction. Moving BODY from a primary to a figured characteristic isn't that big a change (it would still be a characteristic!).