Mutant for Hire Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 There are two points to consider: 1. DO YOUR RESEARCH If you're going to do superheroes and villains from a given culture, really sit down and ask yourself what those people would consider significant and meaningful heroes and villains to themselves. Not how other people see them but how they see themselves, for better or for worse. For the English, for example, there is the whole Arthurian mythology, obviously. There is also the fact that the Elizabethian period and the Victorian period are viewed as high water marks of their history. Then there is the concept of the modern gentleman, along the lines of James Bond or even John Steed. French history, however, is totally different, even though they also had Arthur. But they had their own history of knighthood and chivalry. Besides the knights there are the three Musketeers, and then the French Revolution and the concepts it brought, and so on. A Frenchman wanting to be a hero with deep ties to French culture has a lot to choose from in variety. In the end, these people to some extent represent their culture. You have to ask what that culture really wants to show off about itself. 2. Make them worthy of respect. This means not making them a potential cast member in an ethnic joke as much as possible. They need not be brilliant and highly educated, but a lot of steroetypes tend to focus on making the person stupid, unsophisticated or deeply flawed in some way. Now obviously a villain has flaws, and even do heroes, but one should try to avoid making the flaws stereotypical one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Scrivner Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 You guys are working too hard to find Jewish bricks. I can think of two right away: Sampson (the original brick) The Golem (the original hulking construct) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boll Weevil Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Staring us right in the blackface I can't believe this topic is already on page 2 and not one mention of Black Mambo. Get it? He's black and has snake powers. Black mambo!! Black Diamond. Get it? She's black and she's tough. Black Diamond!! Neither are stereotypes but the names have always made me chuckle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Originally posted by Law Dog What about Atom Smasher (nee Nuklon), who I know is Jewish and I believe Marathon from Strikeforce: Moritori was also. Atom Smasher is not only Jewish, he's bisexual. Two great tastes that taste great together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Re: Staring us right in the blackface Originally posted by Boll Weevil I can't believe this topic is already on page 2 and not one mention of Black Mambo. Get it? He's black and has snake powers. Black mambo!! Black Diamond. Get it? She's black and she's tough. Black Diamond!! Neither are stereotypes but the names have always made me chuckle. At least they don't have to wear feathers and warpaint. I'm still waiting for an American Indian hero... or even an American Indian villian for crying out loud... who isn't wearing feathers, warpaint, or some other sort of classical "Indian" accoutrements. Hey, and while I'm kvetching about the lack of representation for my particular ethnic group, why not wonder why the heck all of the Indian heroes are so obviously Sioux and/or Apache? What... a Seminole can't be a hero? Or an Iriquois? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Scrivner Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Worldmaker said: Hey, and while I'm kvetching about the lack of representation for my particular ethnic group, why not wonder why the heck all of the Indian heroes are so obviously Sioux and/or Apache? What... a Seminole can't be a hero? Or an Iriquois? ---- Obviously the Sioux and the Apache tribal governments have superior PR departments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant for Hire Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 One of the New Mutants was Cherokee, I believe. I don't know what tribe Forge hailed from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Re: Re: Staring us right in the blackface Originally posted by Worldmaker At least they don't have to wear feathers and warpaint. I'm still waiting for an American Indian hero... or even an American Indian villian for crying out loud... who isn't wearing feathers, warpaint, or some other sort of classical "Indian" accoutrements. Hey, and while I'm kvetching about the lack of representation for my particular ethnic group, why not wonder why the heck all of the Indian heroes are so obviously Sioux and/or Apache? What... a Seminole can't be a hero? Or an Iriquois? I don't think the artists know what one looks like sans war paint. Really, I have tried thinking of someone who was indian without at least fring boots and a headband and I can't think of one. (Forge, maybe?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Sorry to nit pick, but.. Originally posted by Mutant for Hire One of the New Mutants was Cherokee, I believe. I don't know what tribe Forge hailed from. I thought Moonstar was Cheyenne? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Re: Re: Staring us right in the blackface Originally posted by Worldmaker At least they don't have to wear feathers and warpaint. I'm still waiting for an American Indian hero... or even an American Indian villian for crying out loud... who isn't wearing feathers, warpaint, or some other sort of classical "Indian" accoutrements. Hey, and while I'm kvetching about the lack of representation for my particular ethnic group, why not wonder why the heck all of the Indian heroes are so obviously Sioux and/or Apache? What... a Seminole can't be a hero? Or an Iriquois? Well he's not exactly a superhero [though pretty darn close in my opinion] but Joe Two Rivers from the Canadian show Forest Rangers was an Ojibway. Pretty non-steroetypical considering the show was made in the 1960's. I also thought up an Iroquois character once. His name was Tom and he had weather powers. He was the son of a Native American business person and as I recall he often went into battle wearing a suit or some other such non sterotypical outfits. Never got to play him though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Re: Sorry to nit pick, but.. Originally posted by Hermit I thought Moonstar was Cheyenne? As I said... they're either Apache or Sioux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 The greatest sin of ethnic stereotyping, IMO, was the reversion of a complex, mature character to a one-dimensional angry black man. Luke Cage in Power Man and Iron Fist had become one of the best written, fully developed CHARACTERS, regardless of ethnicity, in the DC/Marvel Universes. The boom happened and somebody thought they needed to "Youthanize" and "Gangstafy" Luke Cage. It was a horrible hack job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karma Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 So what do people think of the fact that they've cast a black actor as Wilson Fisk in the new Dare-Devil Movie. Do we think its : a) Steering away from the sterotype of the original Fisk as an Italian Crime Boss or Playing on the stereotype of all crime being tracable to the black community (hell he even claims to have grown up in Harlem). c) just a casting decision that has nothing to do with sterotypes. P.s. Am I the only one who thinks Marlon Brando would have made the perfect Kingpin were it not for the fact he refuses to be shot from the neck down? One thing that helps keep me from 'sterotyping' is the fact that all my games are set in Australia where sterotypes are not as prevalent. Sure some of our native people are sterotyped as drunken dole bludgers (people who live off welfare) but no-one wants to bring that into the game anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Originally posted by Karma So what do people think of the fact that they've cast a black actor as Wilson Fisk in the new Dare-Devil Movie. Do we think its : a) Steering away from the sterotype of the original Fisk as an Italian Crime Boss or Playing on the stereotype of all crime being tracable to the black community (hell he even claims to have grown up in Harlem). c) just a casting decision that has nothing to do with sterotypes. Personally, I think it was blind casting. They got the best actor they could who fit the basic physical type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Law Dog Posted March 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Originally posted by Worldmaker Personally, I think it was blind casting. They got the best actor they could who fit the basic physical type. Yup. I'm thinking C, too. They needed a really big actor that didn't look like a dough ball and looked like he could rip Ben Affleck a new cake hole. M. C. Duncan fit the bill perfectly. On top of the fact that was brought to mind while watching the stand-up's on Comedy Central. He pointed out the African-American males look menacing with a shaved head, but generally speaking, a Caucasian guy usually looks like he's undergoing chemotherapy. Not always, but often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Originally posted by Karma So what do people think of the fact that they've cast a black actor as Wilson Fisk in the new Dare-Devil Movie. Do we think its : a) Steering away from the sterotype of the original Fisk as an Italian Crime Boss or Playing on the stereotype of all crime being tracable to the black community (hell he even claims to have grown up in Harlem). c) just a casting decision that has nothing to do with sterotypes. P.s. Am I the only one who thinks Marlon Brando would have made the perfect Kingpin were it not for the fact he refuses to be shot from the neck down? One thing that helps keep me from 'sterotyping' is the fact that all my games are set in Australia where sterotypes are not as prevalent. Sure some of our native people are sterotyped as drunken dole bludgers (people who live off welfare) but no-one wants to bring that into the game anyway. I always thought Kingpin was an Irish mobster. Since they were going for a comic book non-ethnic mob I had no problem with it. I would have preferred for them to have Daredevil take on the Irish Mob though. I like it when action films maturely address the ethnic nature of organized crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boll Weevil Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Mr. Duncan stays I had a problem with it at first. The film is supposed to be an adaptation of a very visual medium. We all know Kingpin at a glance. His image is an integral part of his persona. If I were to pick a black actor, Mr. Duncan is high on my list. I sat down to check the boards tonight because my wife is watching Jurassic Park II which I have seen twice. The casting of an african-american girl to play Jeff Goldblum's daughter was a neat idea. I understand she showed up for casting call despite the description and they fell in love with her. I have not seen Daredevil yet, sadly, but I am curious to see what Michael Clark Duncan brings to the role. I have already decided not to expect too much fidelity to the comicbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Re: Mr. Duncan stays Originally posted by Boll Weevil I had a problem with it at first. The film is supposed to be an adaptation of a very visual medium. We all know Kingpin at a glance. His image is an integral part of his persona. If I were to pick a black actor, Mr. Duncan is high on my list. I sat down to check the boards tonight because my wife is watching Jurassic Park II which I have seen twice. The casting of an african-american girl to play Jeff Goldblum's daughter was a neat idea. I understand she showed up for casting call despite the description and they fell in love with her. I have not seen Daredevil yet, sadly, but I am curious to see what Michael Clark Duncan brings to the role. I have already decided not to expect too much fidelity to the comicbook. Well, I have seen it and it made me be interested and actually like Elektra, something Miller could never do. I thought Duncan's acting was adequate. I can't say much more about it because Bullseye was really the star villain in this movie. Kingpin was used as a plot device and a not-completely-satisfying climactic battle. All in all I liked the movie and it was fairly loyal to Daredevil's background. I have two quibbles [do not read if you don't like spoilers - though I wonder how you wouldn't have heard about the movie by now] 1. Daredevil's dad did not have to be a thug for the mob to make this movie work. 2. Who the heck informed on the Kingpin near the end of the movie? If it was Urich, they should have had a scene showing him making a call or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allen Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Re: Re: Sorry to nit pick, but.. Originally posted by Worldmaker As I said... they're either Apache or Sioux. How about... (drum roll please)... Shaman and Talisman from Alpha Flight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Re: Re: Re: Sorry to nit pick, but.. Originally posted by allen How about... (drum roll please)... Shaman and Talisman from Alpha Flight? And where are they now? Seriously, that's two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Law Dog Posted March 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 I hear Shaman and Apache Chief are hanging together these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Re: Re: Re: Re: Sorry to nit pick, but.. Originally posted by Worldmaker And where are they now? Seriously, that's two. Well I did mention Joe Two Rivers as an Ojibway, but nobody seemed to be paying attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 My games are set in Australia. I don't use indigenous (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander) supers in my games at all. There are a couple of reasons for this, of which the "Apache Chief" problem is the most important. I'm simply not going to use characters that will end up as stupid and insulting stereotypes. Well, apart from New Zealanders and Americans, anyway. If I ever decide to use a version of the current official CU, I will simply leave Walkabout and Wanambi Man (Wannabe Man) permanently offstage... Of course, I suppose I could use indigenous characters that aren't "stupid and insulting stereotypes", but that requires a bit of skill and effort. For what it is worth, though, indigenous people make up about 1.5% of Australia's population. Statistically, the most likely number of indigenous superbeings in Australia is: Zero. This number might be bumped up by certain possible assumptions about magic and mysticism, but magical critters and people are likely to spend most of their time minding their own business, and not interacting with the rest of the "superhuman world" too much. Since both Walkabout and Wannabe Man are mystics, it is quite likely that they might never interact with PCs operating in Australia. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rage Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Originally posted by Kevin Scrivner You guys are working too hard to find Jewish bricks. I can think of two right away: Sampson (the original brick) The Golem (the original hulking construct) Sampson only showed superstrength once: pulling down the pillars. all the rest of the time he appeared to be just a super MA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rage Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Originally posted by assault My games are set in Australia. ......... There are a couple of reasons for this, of which the "Apache Chief" problem is the most important. I'm simply not going to use characters that will end up as stupid and insulting stereotypes. Well, apart from New Zealanders and Americans, anyway. ............ Alan So you had a NZ super with sheep powers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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