The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

[Susano]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

For people's info (in case you don't already know)' date=' Donaldson is writing the [u']Last Chronicals of Thomas Covenent[/u] right now. I've read the first book (Runes of the Earth) and it's actually pretty good. Linden (from the second series) is back. She's a much stronger character than Thomas, IMHO -- though also flawed.

 

No spoilers, but the book ends on a cliffhanger, so you might wait at least until the second book is out before picking this one up.

 

Is Thomas still around? Didn't he... uhm... "die" at the end of Book 6? And is Linden the doctor from Earth?

[teh bunneh]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Is Thomas still around? Didn't he... uhm... "die" at the end of Book 6? And is Linden the doctor from Earth?

 

Yep, Thomas is dead. Linden is the doctor from Earth -- the story is about her.

[Susano]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Yep' date=' Thomas is dead. Linden is the doctor from Earth -- the story is about her.[/quote']

 

Ahhh... okay.

 

I'll admit right now... I'm almost certainly not going to read it.

[Susano]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

When was the last time someone argued about the morality of Conan....

 

REH presents Conan's time as one of pretty black-and-white morality. The bad guys are pretty easy to spot, they sacrifice maidens, traffic with demons, and cast dark spells. Conan, while he might be a thief, pirate, and raider, doesn't go around randomly killing people (for the most part), and tends to enact a rough sort of justice in his world. He also has a certain moral code and standards -- won't hurt woman, stands by his friends, and so on. He's not an upstanding human being, unlike, say, Captain America, but he's heroic by the standards of his world.

 

Covenant rapes a woman almost as soon as he arrives in the Land, denies everything, and tends to come across as a whiner and complainer. He tends to be inactive and let everyone else fight/act for him. And then tries (too late) top stop something bad from happening. So it's hard to see him as the hero until book 3. Interestingly, in books 4-6, he's far more "heroic", while Linden is the one who won't accept the world.

[CraterMaker]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Er.. Yeah, I'm familiar with Conan..

 

Perhaps the example was flawed, but the gist of the post was that the series evokes a strong emotional response which people talk about. My take on it is that the author originally gave us a sympathetic character for the readers, and once we bought in to it his actions made us hate him.. Usually it is the reverse that happens in stories, where the characters initial actions scream "Villian" and then subsequently he "atones" and we sympathise with him (Like Darth Vader- Villain who performs act of heroics and becomes sympathetic) - OR - the character's morality is established and he doesn't change throughout the entire story.

 

Course, I'm not a lit critic and haven't even taken any college courses on how to evaluate things like this, but it's my take on it.

 

The reason I brought it up is that, even though the Covenant series is an excellent extreme example of the technique, the same thing could be used in a story or game to evoke the same emotions - tailored to how much antipathy you think your players would accept, of course.

 

-CraterMaker

[keithcurtis]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

I always cut him some slack for the rape.* He honestly thought he was hallucinating. He might have been in some way. We are Sci Fi fantasy readers, ready to accept (at least on a theoretical level) the fantastic. Covenant had no such background. He could not accept that he was doing anything other than dreaming. He certainly was not rational.

Has none of you never committed an act in a dream you would never, ever think of doing in a waking, rational state?

 

Keith "He whipped himself for it enough for the following chapters and books" Curtis

 

 

*That's a hard sentence to type, but I couldn't think of a better way to word it. Keith in no way endorses rape. There.

[Susano]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

I always cut him some slack for the rape. He honestly thought he was hallucinating. He might have been in some way. We are Sci Fi fantasy readers, ready to accept (at least on a theoretical level) the fantastic. Covenant had no such background. He could not accept that he was doing anything other than dreaming. He certainly was not rational.

Has none of you never committed an act in a dream you would never, ever think of doing in a waking, rational state?

 

I did too. He clearly thinks he's in a dream and is not able to deal with his normally dead limbs having a sense of feeling again. It drives him more than a little mad initially.

[Kristopher]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

I always cut him some slack for the rape.* He honestly thought he was hallucinating. He might have been in some way. We are Sci Fi fantasy readers, ready to accept (at least on a theoretical level) the fantastic. Covenant had no such background. He could not accept that he was doing anything other than dreaming. He certainly was not rational.

Has none of you never committed an act in a dream you would never, ever think of doing in a waking, rational state?

 

I don't recall having done so, but I don't get to dream much. REM wakes me up most of the time.

 

*That's a hard sentence to type, but I couldn't think of a better way to word it. Keith in no way endorses rape. There.

 

At least for me, you didn't need to add that.

[keithcurtis]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

At least for me' date=' you didn't need to add that.[/quote']

 

And probably not for 90% of the board. But a bulletproof vest that is guaranteed to only stop 90% of the bullets flying at you...

 

Keith "CYA" Curtis

[Mulgar]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Two quick thoughts......

 

First of all the world of Thomas Covenat was unbelievable, to this day it is one of the best imagined that I have ever read about. BUT I could never get into the whiny anti-hero of the series. I was really confused at the time because a lot of my friends were telling me how great it was and I just labored to read them.

 

Second, I for one am glad that occasionally some of the old threads are brought up. I don't have the time to read the entire boards and find them. I can read the new ones as they come. So Mel, thanks for pulling it up again. There has been some good new discussions about it.

 

If I had rep to give several of you would get it.

[CraterMaker]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Mulgar makes a good point about bringing up older threads.. I don't have time to go swimming in the vast goodness that is in the vault, so it makes me appreciative of people who

 

A) Have Massive Thread-Fu, like Lord Liaden (and others)

Expend the time to find things they have something to contribute to..

 

-CraterMaker

[Curufea]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Just chiming in with my "why wikis are superior to message boards" proseletyzing again

 

Because old content is still easily findable.

 

QED

[Melenkurion]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

I agree cutting Covenant a break on the rape, because of the impossibility of his situation. Thing is, Covenant didn't do that; he always tried to justify it but he still never really forgave himself for that.

But I have a question. Berek spoke of "white gold", something that doesn't exist in The Land. How would he know about white gold? Unless he was given a vision of some sort. What I am getting at is did Berek and later Kevin Landwaster, see the advent of Thomas Covenant in The Land? That poem about white gold, and also the one who bears it "hero and fool, potent and powerless" is that what led Kevin to The Ritual of Desecration? He saw the terribleness of Ringthane, White Gold Wielder? Berek did too, but maybe he hoped. I understand that Kevin brought on the ritual hoping it would end Lord Foul. Berek in his extremity brought forth the Fire Lions, just like Covenant did, although in his situation he had no idea of what was going on. I love that in the book "White Gold Wielder" that Covenant was named Earthfriend, just like Berek. But in the end as Mhoram said to TC, "You are the white gold". He is the paradox. Which I thought was brilliant, because Covenant in Our World is a leper, Foul in The Land is a leper to, despised. I think Foul counted on that, that Covenant would cling to his leperhood, his despite. BUt Thomas Covenant was no quitter. Like Berek, no matter what, he was going to survive. WEll, I ramble.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

No spoilers, but the book ends on a cliffhanger, so you might wait at least until the second book is out before picking this one up.

 

Yeah, which doesn't come out until Oct 2007. Arrgh. Two years between books. Arrgh.

 

I was very surprised with the opening of Runes of Earth - It was cool to see a series open with a strong character making decisions right away, even if they could be wrong ones.

 

As my username implies, I am a huge fan of the books... They are my favorite fantasy books of all time, and S R Dondalson my favorite writer. Without going into specific analysis of the Covenant books (I always could later, a subject near and dear to my heart) - I'm going to comment on his approach. If you want to tell something close to the hero journey, and have growth of character, the tradition is the innocent growing to adulthood (Young King Arthur, Luke Skywalker, Frodo Baggins, Garion,ect...) - Donaldson chooses to have his characters grow in a different way - they start off broken and the growth is healing themselves. I find the approach to be somewhat refreshing in that you have great amounts of character growth, but not the cliche of Farmboy grows up to save the world.

 

 

 

Covenants rape and guilt, plus his unbelief and leprosy, and later his inability to controll his wild magic.

Linden's guilt for her parents.

Teresa (From Mordant's Need) and her complete and total lack of anything resembling self image or belief in self.

Geraden's lack of self confidence.

Axebrewder's alcoholism

Angus' many many problems

Morn's Gap sickness and addition to the zone implants

 

 

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

But I have a question. Berek spoke of "white gold", something that doesn't exist in The Land. How would he know about white gold? Unless he was given a vision of some sort.

 

 

Seers and Prophets are mentioned in the series - my namesake being one.

 

Some spoilers from Runes of Earth here

 

 

Well there is time travel in the storms that move in the land in the last series. I fully expect to see coversations with Berek, Kevin and others from great past.

 

 

[Melenkurion]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Yes, I know about Mhoram the oracle. I don't think I am right in what I posted, just curious. With the exception Foamfollower, Mhoram was the most tolerant towards Covenant. Why? He insulted Mhoram's grief over the death of his parents. But, only Mhoram, maybe Foamfollwer and maybe Bannor, believed that Covenant was the key--not to victory, but to not give into despair. I always got the impression that Mhoram was a lot more than he made himself out to be, especially since he grappled with a Raver and the Raver feared him.

I just keep thinking about Kevin Landwaster as I read the books and what was it that drove him to despair? Remember Elena's bone scultpture of Covenant, and Covenant thought it was Bannor? TC thought the Bloodguards' oath was extravegant. And, boy, did Covenant not know The Bloodguard and The Bloodguard know him? No Bloodguard was rejected by The Ranyhyn, some Lords were, Covenant got an army of Ranyhyn who reared to him and were terrified of him. I find that sad. The Bloodguard respect Earthpower, The Ranyhyn are the expression of Earthpower and Health Sense.

Ok, here is what I am getting at. (starting to sound like Covenant!) When Covenant becomes a leper, what was going on in The Land? Or more importantly when Covenant married and put on the white gold ring that was at least five years before the leprosy. I'm not sure if Donaldson went that far with Covenant. Still you got to wonder.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Yes' date=' I know about Mhoram the oracle. I don't think I am right in what I posted, just curious. With the exception Foamfollower, Mhoram was the most tolerant towards Covenant. Why? [/quote']

 

I think Mhoram understood covenant. Perhaps not the details, but he understood his pain, his suffering and his sorrows. He intuited that Thomas couldn't express himself in ways that the people of the land could understand. He was, after all, the man who eventually understood the ritual of descration and the failure of the lords. He could see something in Covenant that allowed him to understand him. Everyone else saw Covenant as a savior, Mhoram saw his as man in pain (as did Foamfollower).

 

That was always my take on that.

 

As for how did Berek know, I'm not sure, but I could easily see him as a Seer and Prophet and saw his coming to the land. And as the new series is called the Last Chornicles of Thomas Covenant - and years ago in an interview he said that if he ever did another TC series "I'd destroy the land, the whole thing would be a metaphor for death and acceptence" - I could see that coming about at the hands of TC, with the only way to save the intent of the land is to destroy it - which would really fufil the paradox "Savior and destroyer" all in one.

[Melenkurion]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Then the Ranyhyn would be right in fearing him. Covenant is worse than Kevin , just like Foul. I don't understand someone who creates this beautiful place and the only thing he can come up with is to destroy it? That says more about Donaldson than it does about The Land. I figured Foul was killing The Land by degrees. So Covenant who sacrificied everything to save The Land ends up destroying it? Why bother with Covenant then? Even our world is not that tragic. Unless Donaldson means a re-birth of The Land. The "intent of The Land"? Is what? I really don't see how having Covenant die to uphold The Arch of Time works out to his destruction of The Land. Where is Foul in this? Foul is an idiot. He is a one-dimensional thinker; like Dracula, he always returns to what worked before. So Foul, then, was lying when he was defeated. Covenant was defeated, not Foul. Foul never said, "YOu dare not! No, no no!" Oh that was Covenant's fantasy. If Donaldson thinks that is the way to go, put it on Covenant, then The Land was never real. And I have no interest in reading further. Donaldson says "acceptence"? Then he should have made sure that Covenant raped Foul too. Why not? In the end, there is just the end. Brilliant. This just is unacceptable. Foul will not be defeated or freed by the destruction of The Land. What is the point? Foul is trapped? He was trapped way before Covenant came along.

Sorry, I love SRD's books. It probably is just the same thing again, Donaldson writes something that makes me writhe and then later I get over it because I understand. It serves no purpose to destroy The Land. Foul wouldn't bother destroying the Land if that was it! He might just because but that doesn't win him anything, he is still trapped. Ok, enough.

[Zed-F]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

I never could get all the way through the Thomas Covenant stuff.

 

But his Gap Cyle was a lot better work, IMHO.

[Alcamtar]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

First of all the world of Thomas Covenat was unbelievable' date=' to this day it is one of the best imagined that I have ever read about.[/quote']

 

Really? I read it back when I was a kid and my recollection was that the world was kind of sketchy and shallow, that Donaldson was a good storyteller but an amateurish worldbuilder. Then again maybe it is my memory that is sketchy and shallow.

 

Not trying to offend anyone, but a couple of people have mentioned this now and it surprises me. What about The Land did you find to be well done? What made it better than say, Middle Earth or Hyboria or even Greyhawk (to name just a few)? All of these always felt more real and/or cool to me. Maybe it was Donaldson's allegorical names that I couldn't get past.

 

Genuinely curious,

Mike

[Curufea]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Actually - I think the setting in the Wheel of Time and The Song of Ice and Fire to be better.

[Melenkurion]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

First of all, Tolkien's Middle Earth can't be bested. That ain't happening, until you get a philologist with a brilliant imagination that is not happening. Ask the authors you posted, not one of them will disagree, including Donaldson. The thing about The Land is that it is healthy, it sings of health, the earthpower we talk about here is not even open to debate in The Land. The hills truly are alive with the sound of music.

Donaldson's world is not shallow. Only shallow people use that word anyway. Guess that makes me shallow. Rats.

Earthpower, that is what The Land is about, sustaining beauty, without a flaw. Maybe that was Kevin's flaw, he could not accept The Land if it wasn't perfect. The Ritual of Desecration is a child's tantrum, that is why Mhoram, no child he, would never do that. Kevin Landwaster passed centuries like others pass decades. Sorry, Kevin was almost as bad as Foul. Why didn't Elena bring back Berek? Berek was a true champion. Of course she probably thought she had Berek by her side in Covenant.

So, this is what seperates Donaldson from the rest, his Land is pure emotion, and that emotion is dangerous. Earthpower, healthsense, same thing. White gold, Covenant, same thing. Mhoram changed everything when he understood Loric's Krill. Covenant is the white gold. he is the paradox. He is both fool and saint, savior and destroyer. In the end I think The Land will be destroyed, but Foul will not escape. Foul will live in the cesspool he created. Since the Law of Death was destroyed, the dead will live on, but not in The Land. I really think Donaldson is going to bring some of them here to our world. Can you imagine The Hurachai in Manhattan? Or a stonedowner in Miami? Maybe that was the point, Covenant refused Mhoram's call to The Land to save a girl. Linden Avery has The Staff of Law. Maybe that is where he is going with this. Don't know. What I suggested is stupid, but who knows. I do know I will be a senior citizen by the time he finishes his four books.

 

"Where to?" the cab driver asked.

"Where?" Bane said.

"Yeah, where are you going? You know, address, yadayada.."

"What is this yadayada..it sounds mystical."

"Ok, pal, you don't want a ride. But there are laws."

"Laws?"

"Yeah, like don't break a vow, don't litter.."

"Vow?"

"Oh, now you are listening."

"We are Hurachai, we know of vows."

"Hey, pal you don't look so good. Mabe you should call a doctor. As for me, I am outta here."

The cab drives off.

Bane looks around and sees many forgettable things.

"We suffice," he says.

Bane grabs a policeman and asks in his impassive voice, "Where is the Un-Believer?"

The cop reaches for his gun, Bane slaps it away.

"We are Hurachai, weapons do not obtain. Where is Ur-Lord Thomas Covenant? The Ur-Lord spoke of being a writer, a teller of tales."

The cop, on his back, nearly crippled points to a sign above Bane's head. The sign reads "All Things Shall Sin" a Novel By Thomas Covenant, bestselling author of "Giltmurder's Daughter". Now a Major Motion Picture

Bane paused. "You will take me to the Ur-Lord."

The cop sputtered, "What? I'm a cop. Do you have any idea of who you are messing with?"

"You do not suffice."

The cop was not in fear of his life but he was becoming exasperated. In his need he shot out: "Covenant? The author? That's who you want?"

"The Ur-Lord is required."

"Look, I'm not fighting you, ok? Just let me up. If you want you can put me back on the ground again. Alright?"

Bane shrugged and nodded.

The cop straightened his clothes, hair and hat.

"What do you want with that leper?"

Bane almost slapped the cop.

"There is need. The Ur-Lord must protect."

"Ok, pal, I got ya. This Ur-Lord he protects? right?"

Bane nodded.

The policeman leaned against his cruiser. He sighed and ran a hand over his face.

"Sorry, to tell you this, but Thomas Covenant died three years ago. You know, they go in threes. Dean and then Frank, and then"

"Lies do not obtain. We are The Hurachai. Ringthane lives."

 

"Ring--what? I don't know what's going on here, maybe I don't want to know. But I have back up and they are on the way."

 

"Back-up? What is back-up?" Bane asked as he readied himself on the balls of his feet.

 

"Cops. Like me. More cops, a lot more."

 

"Cops? This name is foreign. It sounds ineffectual."

 

"They have guns, rifles, shotguns, tear gas."

 

"These sound like despite."

 

"Ok, pal, just warning you. Cops do not like people messing with other cops."

 

"What is cops?"

 

"We are sworn to protect and serve."

 

"I know of this oath. This leads to desecration."

 

"well, ok. But right now, you got two police squads pulling up and the reason I am telling you this is because you are insane. Surrender. Give yourself up before more lives are lost."

 

"We are Hurachai, we do not surrender. Our fealty to The Lords is over, but we are not Corruption's tools. We suffice, the "cops" will be dealt with."

 

"They have an arsenal!"

 

"What is arsenal? This word is strange and evil."

 

With that Bane sprang through the door way.