The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

[Nero's Boot]

Has anyone converted either Thomas Covenant trilogy (by Stephen Donaldson) over to HERO? While Covenant himself is an ass who deserves what he gets, the Land itself and all the lands beyond the Land (tongue-tied yet?) are fascinating and would certainly make for good gaming.

 

--I'm assuming Findail the Appointed and Vain both have interesting VPPs NB

[Eclectic Wave]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Shouldn't that be his UNHEROIC stats?

 

-- Couldn't resist the smart ass comment - sorry ---

 

-- Actually I'm not sorry in the least. ----

[teh bunneh]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

I was a huge fan of TCtU when I was a kid, way back (mumble) years ago, and even tried to make up a game to play in the Land. Those notes are now long gone, and would probably be pretty useless in a Hero conversion. Still, HERO Unbeliever would be pretty cool, since the world was so rich and amazing. I'd love to see the Bloodguard in Hero stats...

 

The Oath: LS: No Need to Breathe, No Need to Sleep, Longevity (Immortality)

A kickass Martial Arts package...

 

I have no idea how you would do magic (especially the magic of the Lords), but there would be a wealth of character types to play -- Lords and Bloodguard, masters of Stonelore and Woodlore, soldiers of Revelstone (studied the Lore of the Sword), Giants... -- and tons of adventure/places to explore (imagine questing to find the Third Lore of Kevin).

 

If you decide to do it, keep us posted!

 

Bill.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

There are several suggestions on this thread on translating elements from the Land, mostly from Badger3k. This one makes some suggestions about a magic system inspired by the one in those series.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Don't have much help here. Never did much in the way of direct conversion. I had the equivalent of Haruchai and his Giants in my last FH game, and am keeping somthing very like his giants in my next one, but other than that. The whole thing in doing the land isn't the mechanics but the feel of the thing.

 

Also somewhat off topic, but commenting nonetheless for those that might be interested-

Due in October

The Final Chronicles of Thomas Covenant - The Runes of the Earth.

The prologue is posted on his website.

[teh bunneh]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Due in October

The Final Chronicles of Thomas Covenant - The Runes of the Earth.

The prologue is posted on his website.

 

URL?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

URL?

 

Whoops. It's a fairly obvious one, but that was stupid of me to forget.

 

http://www.stephenrdonaldson.com/

 

It's on the botton right.

[Eodin]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Thomas Covenant was definitely an anti-heroic type, but The Land was such a rich backdrop! I remember that White Wolf came out with an xD&D conversion back in the late '80s of the Ur-Viles and some other creatures. Don't know of anything since then, and I lost my copy umpteen years in one of my moves.

 

I agree - if anyone comes up with something usable for this, keep us informed!

[Melenkurion]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

You got to keep in mind that Covenant was a leper. I know that sounds obvious but he spent 8 months in a place where they told him all he is is a leper. Then he goes to Magic Land. WTF? F stands for Foozle. Everything he believed to be his doom was changed into a new doom--champion of The Land. I hated Covenant when I first read those books. I am re-reading Lord Foul's Bane and I understand his situation now. From a world where diseases just pop up, he goes to a place where this no disease, only health, that would have to drive you a bit crazy. But Covenant was almost always right when it came to understanding Lord Foul. LF is a leper. Only in The Land LF has power. Covenant has power. The White Gold, the paradox, and isn't Covenant a paradox in The Land? The hurtloam could revitalize his nerves, but could not "cure" leprosy. He was in a world where white gold and leprosy didn't exist. Berek knew about white gold but not leprosy. LF is the disease in The Land. This is why The Lords can't win fighting him. They don't understand disease. The Creator of The Land knew all these things, chose Covenant, a leper, to fight the mightiest of foes. Because of the paradox. LF doesn't get the paradox. He thinks the more power he has the stronger he becomes. Covenant believes in impotence, because that is what a leper is taught. "Don't touch me."

I have no idea about why The Lords Council chose Elena, who was insane, to be The High Lord, anymore than why Hile Troy was made Warmark, unless it is what I said before, The Lords do not understand disease. maybe that is what drove Kevin Landwaster mad. But no matter, Berek and Kevin never beat Foul, Covenant did--TC 2 LF 0. I love that he was called Earthfriend in White Gold Wielder, so was he Berek reborn? Notice everytime Covenant goes to the Land the hurachai are there to protect him. Maybe, they don't see Kevin Landwaster in him. maybe they see Berek come back to set things right. The key to The Chronicles is understanding despite. Covenant would never give into that because he understood and felt all the sacrifices that were made on his behalf. Mhoram studied The krill of Loric Vilesilencer and understood--Covenant is the white gold, the paradox.

[Lucius]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

I have GOT to go back and re-read those books.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a doubting palindromedary

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

A) why make an account to have your first post be a ressurrection of a 2 year dead thread?

 

please use carriage returns.

 

C) welcome to the boards.

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Maybe it was the other way around...

 

He made the account... THEN decided to comment on a 2-year old thread.

 

The first thing I did when I got here was to go through all the old threads to see what was being discussed. There were many old threads that I wanted to reply to... but just didn't have time.

 

I really don't understand this implied stigma to ressurecting old topics. If you have new information to share (which this fellow obviously did), then why not add to an old topic instead of starting a new one.

 

The only difference is you have fewer people complaining about "raising the dead"... and more complaining about "this has already been discussed in thread # blah blah blah".

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Maybe it was the other way around...

 

He made the account... THEN decided to comment on a 2-year old thread.

 

The first thing I did when I got here was to go through all the old threads to see what was being discussed. There were many old threads that I wanted to reply to... but just didn't have time.

 

I really don't understand this implied stigma to ressurecting old topics. If you have new information to share (which this fellow obviously did), then why not add to an old topic instead of starting a new one.

 

The only difference is you have fewer people complaining about "raising the dead"... and more complaining about "this has already been discussed in thread # blah blah blah".

 

I dont care if an old thread is ressurected for a good purpose, Ive just been noticing a trend where a new account is made and an old thread is ressurrected, and nothing more is ever heard from that person again. It makes me wonder "why?".

[AlHazred]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

I have to say, the Chronicles inspired a lot of my fantasy imaginings when I first started gaming. But I would never convert the series to HERO, just steal elements I liked - too many people feel too strongly about the book.

[CraterMaker]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

It certainly does bring out strong opinions.. That makes it successful as a work of art, right?

 

>ducks<

 

-CraterMaker

 

Ok, ok, it's true I was baiting, but seriously.. When was the last time someone argued about the morality of Conan, or MadMartigen? Obviously the writer writ well enough to hit some nerves..

[Curufea]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

The association and empathy is stronger with Thomas because of his modern background. Therefore the reader does not distance themselves so much from his moral choices.

Readers don't care if a character they don't understand or care about does something immoral.

 

It's also the main reason to instill personality into NPCs in roleplaying games. If the players' don't care, they won't be immersed.

[CraterMaker]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

I think the antipathy many readers feel towards Thomas is also because we are very sympathetic to him in the beginning - (Oooh, poor leper) - and then later he betrays our sympathy by his actions.. all in all, an excellent example to follow if you want to recreate such emotions in your stories. IMO.

 

-CraterMaker

[Curufea]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

True.

 

It's always a nice shock to show that characters we pity can also be quite despicable.

[Melenkurion]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

I just wanted to ask one thing--and then I will not go away, ha--does anyone here think that Berek Halfhand and Kevin Landwaster saw the coming of Thomas Covenant? How would Berek know about "white gold" it doesn't exist in The Land? Why did Kevin Landwaster do The Ritual of Desecration?

Covenant in "White Gold Wielder" was called Earthfriend by The First of The Search, a giant. Berek was known as Earthfriend. Kevin wasn't.

I am just curious about this. Donaldson thought his story through thoroughly.

Did they get a vision from The Creator about Covenant? Berek saw hope and Kevin saw despair...? Covenant threw that tapestry of Berek out the window when he was first at Revelstone. Covenant, also, doesn't care too much for Kevin Landwaster. That is why in Lord Foul's Bane he was always trying to get a reaction from Bannor. He wanted Bannor to admit to something, weakness? Zealotry? He was appalled at the Bloodguards simplicity. Covenant, knew that Kevin did what he did because he gave up, the fidelity of the hurachhai, earthpower...what I am asking is did he see the arrival of someone not from the Land, who would resemble Berek, and wield white gold?

[teh bunneh]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

Good questions, Mel, and a nice analysis of the books. It's been years and years (and years) since I read them so I can't remember most of the details. But one thing that I always thought as I read the second trilogy is that the Land, and the people who inhabit it, are a reflection of the main characters (not Thomas, but Linden). The Haruchai are a reflection of her professional detachment -- their dispassionate reaction to almost everything is almost exactly like her dispassionate reaction to disease and injury. When danger looms, the Haruchai get to the ass-whuppin without a trace of emotion, and when someone is hurt, Linden refuses to let a person's pain effect her emotions, she just lets her machine-like doctor personality take over. It's been so long, but I recall that there was something about the Giants, Findail, and Vain that seemed to be echoes of aspects of her personality, too.

 

You've got a good point about Lord Foul being a reflection of or metaphor for Thomas' disease. It fits. I grant you a portion of my Earthpower! (AKA rep!)

[Curufea]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

There are a couple of ways it could go-

a) It is a fictional land created or influenced by Thomas Covenant and would not exist if he did not.

Prophecies. I think it was mentioned in the series. If you can predict the future, you can see alloys that never existed previously

[CraterMaker]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

I have to admit it's been - good lord! Well over a decade since I've read the series.. I'll have to hand this off to you guys and see what you come up with. And stop by the used book store and see if they've got the books...

 

-CraterMaker

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

I dont care if an old thread is ressurected for a good purpose' date=' Ive just been noticing a trend where a new account is made and an old thread is ressurrected, and nothing more is ever heard from that person again. It makes me wonder "why?".[/quote']

 

No offense intended, KS... but, maybe, the reason they're never heard from again is because, within the first half-dozen responses, there's always someone complaining about why they resurrected the thread.

 

Perhaps, if they were greeted with a more positive, welcoming attitude, there would be fewer disappearances. And, the ranks of HEROphiles would grow.

 

Also, for the record, the first time I read the Covenant books, I have to admit that I was unimpressed. I'm not much for anti-heroes. However, after reading Melenkurion's views, I am giving serious thought to a long-overdue re-read.

[Susano]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

I used to own all six books, and reread them a few years back, got done, and stuck them in my "to get rid of" pile. Melenkurion makes some interesting points, but I'm not about to re-buy or re-find them just to see how it all comes out a third time around. However, I do admit to having an interest in developing HERO sheets for the Giants, the Bloodguard, the Sand Gorgons, and some of the other beings/creatures.

[teh bunneh]

Re: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

 

For people's info (in case you don't already know), Donaldson is writing the Last Chronicals of Thomas Covenent right now. I've read the first book (Runes of the Earth) and it's actually pretty good. Linden (from the second series) is back. She's a much stronger character than Thomas, IMHO -- though also flawed.

 

No spoilers, but the book ends on a cliffhanger, so you might wait at least until the second book is out before picking this one up.